Helm's Deep - Jedi

[Stravo]

What would happen if we have the Battle of Helm's Deep as potrayed by the movie but instead of the Riders of Rohan, we have the Jedi that fought on Geonosis, I just mean the rescue teh party which I believe consisted of 200 Jedi. You have Anakin and Obi Wan at Helm's Deep as well but no Yoda.

Can the Jedi hold out for the time the Riders held out until Yoda arrives with the clone troopers. (Which is just a fucking massacre but anywho)

BTW No Aragorn or any of the Fellowship but the jedi are aware of the civilians they need to portect.

Also to add a wrinkle to this. Saruman has contacted Count Dooku (who looks strikingly similair to Saruman ) and has him leadng the Uruk Hai into battle.

Will the Uruk Hai overwhelm the Jedi with sheer numbers, or will the Jedi slaughter them with their sabers?

Personally I have a sinking feeling that the Jedi are going to get ass raped on this one but let's hear everyone else's thought.....

[Shinova]

Lightsabers > swords. Jedi also have force powers.


I say Jedi do better.

[Bug-Eyed Earl]

Theoretically Jedi should be able to deflect arrows. And whatever happens after the Deeping Wall is breached can not be described as anything but a mess- lots and lots of flopping pieces of Uruk-hai.

[Darth Wong]

Let's put it this way: how long would Uruk-hai have survived against the battle droids and Geonosians in the arena? I'd give them about 10 seconds max. The Jedi cannot be remotely compared to the Uruk-hai for combat skills; they can react to things before they happen.

Besides, lightsabres vs metal swords is just a horrible mismatch. A Jedi in the midst of a group of Uruk-hai could simply spin in circles and kill them all, since his blade won't clash with theirs; it will simply cut through them like butter.

[Durandal]

So, let's review our assets.

Defenders of Helm's Deep

Manpower

• 200 Jedi Knights.
• 3 Jedi Masters.
• 1 uber-Jedi Master on the way with an army of clonetroopers.

Objectives

• Hold Helm's Deep until Yoda arrives in roughly 6 hours.
• Keep civilians alive.

Helm's Deep Assault Force

Manpower

• 1 Sith Lord.
• 10,000 Uruk-hai warriors.

Objectives

• Penetrate the walls of Helm's Deep with ladders and battering rams.
• Kill defenders.
• Kill all civilians hiding in the caverns.

Dooku could simply bring the walls of Helm's Deep down in the same manner he caved the ceiling in on Yoda, thus accomplishing the attackers' first objective. Without Dooku, the Uruk-hai wouldn't be able to penetrate the walls simply because the Jedi could hack their ladders apart with their lightsabers. I daresay that, given enough time, the 200 Jedi could sweep through the 10,000 Uruk-hai. This is one situation where the idiotic "run head on into battle" tactics used by the Jedi in the Geonosian arena would work perfectly. Lightsabers could cleave through Uruk-hai armor without any trouble, and the Jedi's danger sense would protect them from stray arrows.

Don't forget that, while the Uruk-hai have far superior numbers, their bottleneck is that they can only send so many soldiers through at a time. The Jedi could easily dispose of the soldiers sent through the wall, and use telekinesis to throw rock fragments into crowds of Uruk-hai.

I'd assume that the Jedi Masters would handle Dooku. Mace Windu, Ki-Adi-Mundi and that green guy that Jango plugged with his blaster would probably be able to overwhelm Dooku and kill him. With Dooku out of the way, the Jedi would be free to slaughter the Uruk-hai at their leisure, until Yoda arrives with the clones to mop up.

[Joe Momma]

They might be able to deflect the arrows, but that's a lot of flying stuff to track if you get a couple of thousand archers letting fly at the same time.

On a related note, I wonder to what extent the Jedi could use their TK to compensate for their lack of ranged weapons. Presumably they could do some force pushes and TK bombardments with nearby detritus, but they relatively uncommon use of this in the movies may indicate that it's not something they can do at long range for a long time.

You could use TK strangles of enemy officers as a sort of sniping attack, though they might be loathe to skirt the Dark Side like that. Tactically, it does help that the leaders get on top of big rocks to better direct traffic.

It's possible that the Jedi could keep the Deeping Wall from going down in the first place by using TK to keep the bombs and the torches away from the gap, though the sheer mass of orcs would probably get them there eventually. Ditto with holding the breech. Still, they'd only have to hold off the orcs until the troops arrived at dawn and they'd probably be able to hold the line longer than the Rohan did.

Depending on how quickly they can carve up the anchors for the larger siege ladders, they might be able to keep the orcs from winching those huge ladders full of troops up to the wall as well, which would cut down on the number of orcs they had to fight simultaneously.

At a glance, I'd guess the Jedi's ability to deal with masses of arrow shots and their potential lack of reliable long-range attacks are two major turning points. As far as the close quarters battle, they'd probably do a lot better than the Rohan did.

-- Joe Momma

[Darth Wong]

They might be able to deflect the arrows, but that's a lot of flying stuff to track if you get a couple of thousand archers letting fly at the same time.

They can't focus-fire on Jedi at ground-level, unless they fire through their own ranks. They're too densely packed together, and the Jedi would be in their midst. You're not going to concentrate thousands of archers on one Jedi. Moreover, their rate of fire is insignificant compared to the automatic weapons being brought to bear by the battle droids; the rate of projectile firing in the arena would handily exceed the bombardment the Jedi could expect at Helm's Deep.

On a related note, I wonder to what extent the Jedi could use their TK to compensate for their lack of ranged weapons. Presumably they could do some force pushes and TK bombardments with nearby detritus, but they relatively uncommon use of this in the movies may indicate that it's not something they can do at long range for a long time.

No, but they can be smart with it. A Force-push that takes down a heavy metallic superbattledroid would probably snap the necks of a whole mob of Uruk-hai. One or two Jedi could also lift the battering ram away from the Uruk-hai and bring it inside the wall, or shatter a portion of the walkway leading up to the gate, so they could stop that avenue of attack cold.

It's possible that the Jedi could keep the Deeping Wall from going down in the first place by using TK to keep the bombs and the torches away from the gap, though the sheer mass of orcs would probably get them there eventually. Ditto with holding the breech. Still, they'd only have to hold off the orcs until the troops arrived at dawn and they'd probably be able to hold the line longer than the Rohan did.

As Durandal said, many of them would be likely to charge into the Orcs' ranks rather than sitting back, since that's their style: they like to get up close and personal. They would do unspeakable damage in the midst of the orc ranks.

Depending on how quickly they can carve up the anchors for the larger siege ladders, they might be able to keep the orcs from winching those huge ladders full of troops up to the wall as well, which would cut down on the number of orcs they had to fight simultaneously.

It might not even come to that, because the Orcs would be battling Jedi in their midst rather than attacking the fortress itself.

[Joe Momma]

It might not even come to that, because the Orcs would be battling Jedi in their midst rather than attacking the fortress itself.

My bad. I assumed they might stay with the castle, but 200 of them is probably enough to form a line out front and keep any serious forces from getting through them to the wall anyway. So they're better off going on the offensive.

Come to think of it, if they all move to ground level and start mowing through the ranks, it reduces the annoyance of the arrows even more, since the level ground (if I'm remembering the landscape correctly) would keep the rear ranks from seeing their position very clearly. A lot of blind shots might end up coming down on other Orcs instead of the Jedi, only adding to the chaos.

Christ, once the Jedi realized what the metal spheres were for, flinging them back into the crowd and hitting them with the torches via TK would rip a serious hole in the Orc lines, too.

Would morale become a factor at this point? I'm not familiar enough with the background to know whether or not the Orcs (or Sauron's human servants, if any of them were there in the movie -- I don't recall) were fanatically loyal to the point of staying when the odds turned so heavily against them. In other words, how likely would they be to break and run when they started dying en masse?

-- Joe Momma

[Darth Wong]

I would expect the orcs to be scared of the lightsabres the instant they ignite (and their mood wouldn't get any better when they discover that those glowing blades slice through swords and armour like butter).

Moreover, they'd be horrified when the Jedi demonstrate the seemingly impossible reflexes which their precognition gives them, and terrified to the point of soiling themselves when the Jedi begin using telekinesis. It's bad enough to fight a foe who can kill you with a tangible weapon, but when you get the idea he can reach out and kill you with a thought, that's just damned scary shit.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

I don't know if the Uruk-Hai would be more suprised than afraid. They are bred to walk into lines of arrows, even after they've been skewered they continue to the bitter end (the orc with the torch, who took three arrows from Legolas, for example). And I think they've dealth with this "telekenesis" before. After all Saurumon can basicly project the same look of knocking someone on their ass by some invisible force. They'd probably suicidily rush the men with the "heat sticks" until they were nothing more than orc giblets.

I'd say the Uruk-Hai would fight even these seemingly supernatural foes until they were defeated, either by the hands of the Jedi, or Yoda and the rest of the calvary.

[Connor MacLeod]

Even if the Jedi don't forge in first, I imagine they could hold off assault if they get the Orcs in at choke points. I can recall Gimli and Aragorn (in the movie) and Aragorn and Eomer (in the book) fending off large numbers of Orcs at least once (I recall more examples in the novel) all by their lonesome (not to mention Gimli flying in) - They litterally killed dozens of orcs, and without the aid of supernatural powers. Jedi would do orders of magnitude better, and each one is at least equivalent, if not greater, than the "heroes" in virtually every respect.

[Sea Skimmer]

Why don't we give the defenders a couple B-52 loaded with guided cluster bombs as well? Perhaps one of the teams from Rainbow armed with machine guns to direct them in and a LAV-AD platoon to guard the drain?

This is such a horrible mismatch in favor of the Jedi I can't believe any debate actually sprung from it. Ten jedi could porubabbly wipe out the Orcs assuming they didn't get tired or slip and fall on all the blood.

The end of this fight would be 200 jedi chasing one sith lord who fled about about ninety seconds.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Why don't we give the defenders a couple B-52 loaded with guided cluster bombs as well? Perhaps one of the teams from Rainbow armed with machine guns to direct them in and a LAV-AD platoon to guard the drain?

This is such a horrible mismatch in favor of the Jedi I can't believe any debate actually sprung from it. Ten jedi could porubabbly wipe out the Orcs assuming they didn't get tired or slip and fall on all the blood.

The end of this fight would be 200 jedi chasing one sith lord who fled about about ninety seconds.

I dunno, 10,000 is a big number, even for such a primitive society. I think that in the end te Jedi would win, but not without a considerable struggle.

And the fatigue! Each Jedi would have to kill 50 Uruk-Hai to reach their final goal, and that would probaby take it out of them.

Although it doesn't sound so bad when its only 50 to 1 odds...maybe the Jedi would ahve an easier time with this than I first thought...

[AdmiralKanos]

Only 50 Uruk-hai for each Jedi means that the Uruk-hai are hopelessly outnumbered.

[Crown]

Hell, all the you could possibly do it with only 2 Jedi? Why? Open the gates, stand in the doorway and start the chopin'. Hopefully the Sarauman's servants would be so focused getting through the door, that they just keep rushing it.

However, Stravo also mentioned Dooku. What could he add/affect in this battle to help de-stabilise the Jedi?

[Lord Pounder]

Can Dooku use the Force Co-Ordination power Palpy used on the Imperial Navy? If he can things may not be as one sided as they seem.

[Stravo]

I was thinking along the lines of force coordination to sort of make the Uruk Hai's scream and charge strategy a little more complex AND also I was thinking that Dooku could liberally use force lightning to cripple a Jedi, the Uruk chop him up while he's wriggling on the floor like a fish. Rinse and Repeat.

Dooku could use the Uruk to keep a group of Jedi busy, isolate them, he uses the Dark side to slow their movements, dull their senses, etc.

[Yogi]

Or simply get the orcs to fight in a more intellegent manor. That would be a HUGE benefit in itself.

[Ghost Rider]

I say Dooku would have to do something to the Jedi.

Having the Orcs fight better isn't going to offset that the Jedi are better than they are in every aspect but numbers. I mean yeah they'll have tactics to think of ganging up but when one Jedi could easily carve around 50-100 without breaking a sweat?...pfft, the numbers would actually have to be higher for the tactic of wading in.

This is a slaughter unless Dooku can incapacitate all the Jedi well.

[Sea Skimmer]

Palpatine was boosting the coordination and skills of an already highly trained force. That’s not the same as suddenly making a mass mob that fights by rushing towards the enemy hacking widely and making it into a ridge organized force, which would be what they need.

However it won't matter the Jedi would still slice them apart enmass. Improved coordination just means the dismembered corpses are in more orderly rows.

[NecronLord]

Why do I get the image of two Crisopher Lee's on top of Ornthrac (or whatever) and the mountains collapsing?

Or as Dooku has come from the SW galaxy, Does he have a few photon torpedoes to replace saruman's explosives?Also technically Saruman has "Contacted" Dooku, Dooku has the rescources of the Trade Federation and the Techno Union plus the others. I get the feeling that he might take a Trade fed battleship full o' droids too.

Failing which we are told in the silmarillion that a palantir can be focussed wherever the user wants to, assuming they have enough willpower, and no-one else is interdicting them What is to stop dooku choking each individual civillian, one at a time, or if possible (and Joruus manages to do nasty things to entire ships crews) en masse?

[Durandal]

Why don't we give the defenders a couple B-52 loaded with guided cluster bombs as well? Perhaps one of the teams from Rainbow armed with machine guns to direct them in and a LAV-AD platoon to guard the drain?

This is such a horrible mismatch in favor of the Jedi I can't believe any debate actually sprung from it. Ten jedi could porubabbly wipe out the Orcs assuming they didn't get tired or slip and fall on all the blood.

The end of this fight would be 200 jedi chasing one sith lord who fled about about ninety seconds.

I dunno, 10,000 is a big number, even for such a primitive society. I think that in the end te Jedi would win, but not without a considerable struggle.

And the fatigue! Each Jedi would have to kill 50 Uruk-Hai to reach their final goal, and that would probaby take it out of them.

Although it doesn't sound so bad when its only 50 to 1 odds...maybe the Jedi would ahve an easier time with this than I first thought...

Gimli was able to take out roughly 20 Uruk-hai by himself within the first ten minutes of the battle with his axe. I seriously doubt that 50 would be a problem for a Jedi with a lightsaber.

If all the Jedi from the arena are there, that means you have at least 3 Jedi Masters -- Mace Windu, Ki-Adi-Mundi, and the green dude that got plugged by Jango Fett. They could easily deal with Dooku and overwhelm him.

Oh, and giving Dooku a few proton torpedoes and battledroids is a bit much, I think. Why don't we just say that the Jedi would have Acclamators in orbit ready glass the Uruk-hai with its heavy guns? Remember, in Heir to the Empire Pallaeon said that his men could slag a building without touching nearby blades of grass. I don't think it's difficult to believe that gunners could obliterate the Uruk-hai without touching Helm's Deep itself. Not to mention that the Acclamators would own the Trade Federation ships in orbit.

[NecronLord]

Oh, and giving Dooku a few proton torpedoes and battledroids is a bit much, I think. Why don't we just say that the Jedi would have Acclamators in orbit ready glass the Uruk-hai with its heavy guns? Remember, in Heir to the Empire Pallaeon said that his men could slag a building without touching nearby blades of grass. I don't think it's difficult to believe that gunners could obliterate the Uruk-hai without touching Helm's Deep itself. Not to mention that the Acclamators would own the Trade Federation ships in orbit.

Of course it was a bit much. I wasn't serious. That is totally cruel. That said the Jedi Vs the Orcs it a bit much also...

As for acclamators owning trade fed Battleships.

Pg. 23 : Manufacturer: Rothana Heavy Engineering (subsidiary of KDY)
Make: /Acclamator/-class tran-galactic military transport ship
Dimensions: length 752m; width 460m; depth (with landing gear) 200m; depth (in flight) 183m
Max. acceleration (linear, in open space): 3,500 G
Power: main reactor peak 2e23 W; peak shielding 7e22 W
Hyperdrive: class 0.6; range 250,000 light-years fully fueled
Passengers: 16,000 clone troopers and support personnel
Armament: 12 quad turbolaser turrets (200 gigatons per shot); 24 laser cannons (6 megatons per shot); 4 missile/torpedo launch tubes

Pg. 18 : Manufacturer: Hoersch-Kessel Drive Inc. (basic Core Ship); Baktoid Combat Automata (droid-army contol core)
Model: /Lucrehulk/-class modular control core (LH-1740)
Dimensions: diameter 696m; depth (when landed, minus transmission mast) 914m
Max. acceleration: (linear, in open space) 300G
Power: reactor peak 3e24W; peak shield capacity 6e23W
Armament: 280 point-defense ligth laser cannons (8 kilotons per shot max.)

Core-Ship design has changed little in the last century. In a typical display of Neimoidian thrift, the spheres can serve a variety of craft: The split-ring freighter-battleships of the Naboo blockade; larger, unarmored container vessels and tankers; and newer warships of the post-Naboo period, including cruisers with improved weapons placement and smaller, faster destroyers that defend the fleets and chase down blockade runners.

One acclamator broadside:
(6 QTL) = 800GT per shot
+
(12 LC) = 72Mt per shot

Total = 800,072 Mt per shot

800074 megaton = 3,347,509,616,000 gigajoule (Approx)

3,347,509,616,000 gigajoule ~= 3.3e21J

3.3e21J < 6e23J (per second of course)

Assuming the weapons on an acclamator have a similar refire rate to an ISD-1 (once per 2 seconds) then they can't touch a core ship (one on one). The Core ship has no way to kill an Acc using it's normal weapons. However what a post Naboo Battleship has in the way of armaments is speculation (unless someone has some nice sized screens of the end of Geonosis, enven then they may be transports.) In conclusion Acclamator Transports do not own Trade Fed Battleships. Not really a surprise. If they did why didn't they do so at Geonosis?

[Sea Skimmer]

Assuming the weapons on an acclamator have a similar refire rate to an ISD-1 (once per 2 seconds) then they can't touch a core ship (one on one). The Core ship has no way to kill an Acc using it's normal weapons. However what a post Naboo Battleship has in the way of armaments is speculation (unless someone has some nice sized screens of the end of Geonosis, enven then they may be transports.) In conclusion Acclamator Transports do not own Trade Fed Battleships. Not really a surprise. If they did why didn't they do so at Geonosis?

We've been over that about a billion times. All transport where doing their job, unloading troops. And using 200-gigaton weapons in an atmosphere is not a good idea when your right by a major city.

The landed Trade Federation ships clearly didn't have active shields in any case.

[Durandal]

Forgot the Trade Federation's ships' shields were that powerful. Oh, and all the Acclamators had landed by the time the Trade Federation ships had begun to take off.