Contradictions in B5

[Rathark]

I'm not here to defend B5, but to state the obvious - that, like other SF series, it occassionally contradicts itself both visually and verbally. B5tech and BabTech seem to be at loggerheads over this issue, and both point to different examples of canonical evidence to back up their views.

While I like to imagine my favourite SF TV series in solid, quantitative terms where size and power does matter, I'm not the type who would freeze-frame DVDs and measure everything pixel by pixel, and I have a perverse admiration for those who do (get some sleep occassionally, guys). Nonetheless, I was wondering if anyone out there would like to discuss these issues:

* The true size of the White Stars and Sharlin-class warcruisers.

* The amount of firepower required to destroy the Black Star.

* The true size and firepower of the Vorlon Planet Killer.

Oh, and there are other issues as well. You know what they are. I'm just too tired to list even a quarter of them.

[Enlightenment]

I was wondering if anyone out there would like to discuss these issues:

Is there really anything to debate here? It's pretty much an open and shut case that, as the series went on, consistancy--along with everything else right down to common sense--was abandoned for the sake of JMS's plot driven <cough> vision. JMS came very close to admitting as much (at least with regard to Crusade) when he reportedly said that the Excalibur 'accelerates at the speed of the plot.' Given a level of creator contempt for the audience equalling or even exceeding that of Bozo and Binhead, attempting to rationalize the true behavior of anything is a futile exercise because anything and everything could be re-canoned tomorrow to just meet yet some twisted plot requirement.

The destruction of the Black Star is a good case in point: running the numbers, the stated 2MT nuke wouldn't be powerful enough to severely irritate much of anything at the range depicted on screen. Trying to rationalize numbers like this is about as reasonable as trying to patch over the plot holes in the typical Trek time travel episode. If you value your sanity, don't bother.

[BrandonBray]

Well, I can't speak for BabTech but I know that over at B5TECH.com I try my best to look at all the available facts and evidence and, just because we disagree about some things doesn't mean that I and Brain Young are going at one another's throats. If anything it helps keep people honest when there is an opposing POV.

The BABYLON 5 TECH-MANUAL is designated to the task of trying to apply real science to the fictional universe of "Babylon 5", but since it is just a TV show with MANY blatant inconsistencies and isolated errors which defy logic or contradict other events in the show, what I try to do is try and look at all the facts and try to reach what is most likely the truth. This often requires that one weed out the errors and find an "average" that fits the majority of the available facts.

Some have laid claim that by dismissing the errors that I am negating the credibility of the work, but I fervently disagree with that mindset. After all, all science fiction series have errors which fans frequently, quickly and properly dismiss all the time. As just three examples:

In "Star Wars" fans completely dismiss the fact that the interior sets of the Millennium Falcon would never fit inside the ship. This was infamously noted in TESB when Lando took an elevator up two levels to get to the top of the Falcon, in order to rescue the dangling Luke from Cloud City... only problem being that the Falcon's interior is only ONE level in height.

In "Star Trek" the Interior sets of the Delta Flyer are about twice as big as the exterior sets of the Delta Flyer and, likewise, the size of Voyager's shuttle bay varied dramatically depending on the episode one was watching.

In "Babylon 5" you have the huge size difference of the Whitestar going from season to season - perfect example is in the episode "War Without End" as the Whitestar approached Babylon 4. On approach the Whitestar was about the official size of 475 meters but upon latching on it was more like 268 meters and given the size of the hole made by the Whitestar as small as 150 meters in size. How'd that happen? Simple, the two exterior shots were animated by two different guys and the interior setup was built by set designers working with JMS's original size estimate.

I look for the average - if the majority of evidence supports one conclussion while the minority does not, the majority wins; if one single frame of video doesn't look right compared to hundreds of other frames, that one frame should not invalidate all the other evidence, especially if it is a gross perversion of all other evidence - the size of the Minbari War-Cruiser comes mind.

As for the destruction of the Blackstar... yep... nothing has annoyed fans more. Best theory is that the nuke went off just as the Blackstar was about to fire, given that one of Lexington's crewman noted an energy spike from the Blackstar, and the nuke destabalized the weapon causing it to explode. That explains the first nuke. As for the second, most fans just chalk it up to drive plasma {cough-TREKNOBABBLE-cough} from the damaged right wing being ignited by the nuke and thus causing the reactors to go boom. Does it suck? Yes. Is there a better explanation? No, not really. Not unless one wants to redeifine what a megaton is in the B5 universe or just think that the guy really meant 32 megatons or something and Sheridan just didn't call him on the glaring verbal fopah(sp?).

B5 - good story, but proof that writers with little grasp of science should leave it to someone who can grasp it - B5's 73 googolwatt reactor speaks for its self I think. Yes... googol. Oye.

[His Divine Shadow]

Does it suck? Yes. Is there a better explanation? No, not really. Not unless one wants to redeifine what a megaton is in the B5 universe or just think that the guy really meant 32 megatons or something and Sheridan just didn't call him on the glaring verbal fopah(sp?).

Why does that have to be redefined? Brian Young calculated that the Black Star must have taken 306TJ of energy, thats equal to being hit by 938.650 armor piercing battleship rounds at point blank range.

I don't think thats anything to scoff at.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Does it suck? Yes. Is there a better explanation? No, not really. Not unless one wants to redeifine what a megaton is in the B5 universe or just think that the guy really meant 32 megatons or something and Sheridan just didn't call him on the glaring verbal fopah(sp?).

Why does that have to be redefined? Brian Young calculated that the Black Star must have taken 306TJ of energy, thats equal to being hit by 938.650 armor piercing battleship rounds at point blank range.

I don't think thats anything to scoff at.

It's not, until you look at other sci-fi universes.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Does it suck? Yes. Is there a better explanation? No, not really. Not unless one wants to redeifine what a megaton is in the B5 universe or just think that the guy really meant 32 megatons or something and Sheridan just didn't call him on the glaring verbal fopah(sp?).

Why does that have to be redefined? Brian Young calculated that the Black Star must have taken 306TJ of energy, thats equal to being hit by 938.650 armor piercing battleship rounds at point blank range.

I don't think thats anything to scoff at.

Unless you want B5 to have a level of firepower competative with, say, Star Trek.

I find Mr. Bray's site interesting enough (it is more detailed and contains more content than almost any other B5 site), but the impression I get from his technical articles is that he starts with his conclusion and works from there. He's no Graham Kennedy, but I still don't agree with his figures.

[His Divine Shadow]

It's not, until you look at other sci-fi universes.

But thats not what I am interested in.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

But thats not what I am interested in.

Ah, you're talking about "Impressive compared to real life" not "Impressive compared to [insert Sci-fi universe]"

[His Divine Shadow]

Ah, you're talking about "Impressive compared to real life" not "Impressive compared to [insert Sci-fi universe]"

Yes, I've always thought B5 was the most realistic show and nearest to "Real Life".

[David]

Like ST they based all their tech on what might eventually be developed. They fortunately kept out the techno-babble, and they kept the greatness of the original ST in there.

[Dead on Arrival]

Like ST they based all their tech on what might eventually be developed. They fortunately kept out the techno-babble, and they kept the greatness of the original ST in there.

Bullshit! B5 is just as unrealistic as any other science-fantasy setting, and in some cases blatantly ignores common sense in place of what will look good on screen...

[Enlightenment]

Like ST they based all their tech on what might eventually be developed.

Which is a neat trick given that 1/3rd of the tech/metaphysics is blatently impossible, 1/3rd is below what we have today or will reach within the next few decades (e.g. AI), 1/6th is too screwed up to be worth implementing; only the remaining 1/6th might generously be considered something that might eventually be developed.

[Crossover_Maniac]

Like ST they based all their tech on what might eventually be developed. They fortunately kept out the techno-babble, and they kept the greatness of the original ST in there.

Bullshit! B5 is just as unrealistic as any other science-fantasy setting, and in some cases blatantly ignores common sense in place of what will look good on screen...

As opposed to one star fighter blowing up a planetkiller by shooting torpedos into its exhaust vent (I guess the Empire never heard of a closed-cycle system, otherwise, all Luke would have taken out was a heat exchanger).

[Enlightenment]

Simple, the two exterior shots were animated by two different guys and the interior setup was built by set designers working with JMS's original size estimate.

All things considered that's pretty damn sloppy CG work given that all the shots likely used--or should have used--the same White Star mesh.

As for the second, most fans just chalk it up to drive plasma {cough-TREKNOBABBLE-cough} from the damaged right wing being ignited by the nuke and thus causing the reactors to go boom.

Of course, 'drive plasma' won't be flamable or prone to nuclear chain reaction, nor will fusion reactors 'go boom' when damaged.

IMO the best thing to do here is discount the incident a case of 'one bad frame' as the numbers are so far at odds with reality as to be utterly useless.

[Dead on Arrival]

As opposed to one star fighter blowing up a planetkiller by shooting torpedos into its exhaust vent (I guess the Empire never heard of a closed-cycle system, otherwise, all Luke would have taken out was a heat exchanger).

A design flaw that was only noticed after thorough examination of the Death Star's structure from full schematics. The second Death Star when completed would have had no such flaw.

[DodoBrd16]

Yeah, it was kinda lame how it went up.

But heres another idea, I however do not mean that this IS how it happened, just another idea...

The first nuke could have damaged the armor more then is suspected. When the second one goes off, it sends a large piece of rock((they were in a asteroid field after all)) at a pretty good clip, its slams into the hull and ran into something that shouldnt have been run into. Its not a great explanation...but its about as realistic as some of the others I've heard to explain it.

Oh and on the most realistic sci fi series, Andromeda takes the cake there. Even if by the year 5000 you'd think we'd have cracked the light barrier when it comes to communications... Atleast on a galactic level... I mean I can understand if they couldnt do it between galaxies, the distances are rather significant when you talk about that...

B5s lack of Air/Space capable fighters always annoyed me...and although the TB was nice... our birds now adays could probably out manuver it in the air.

Oh, one thing I dont get about star wars is how Luke had to use the force to hit the vent on the first Death Star. How he had to turn off his targeting computer, I mean, we can put a bomb through a window with a laser guided bomb, I think with the tech level they had during A New Hope even their crappiest computers should have been able to nail it dead on.

But what would be more suspensful....lol.

[Dead on Arrival]

The first nuke could have damaged the armor more then is suspected. When the second one goes off, it sends a large piece of rock((they were in a asteroid field after all)) at a pretty good clip, its slams into the hull and ran into something that shouldnt have been run into. Its not a great explanation...but its about as realistic as some of the others I've heard to explain it.

If you watch both nukes detonate, you will notice that the initial EM-flash of energy does not cause any visible change in the Black Star. It is not until after the secondary 'waves' (plasma, asteroidal debris, etc) impact that we see any visible change to the Black Star. We know that at least one of the Black Star's weapons was charged to fire upon the Lexington, and that the weapons have gunports which can be open/closed. The resulting damage is confined to an impact on the upper body, and the complete removal of one of the weapon fins and accompanying main fin. The Black Star also is not outright destroyed by either detonation, instead finally suffering a catastrophic failure in her reactor (damn ST contractors) causing her to explode. Saying a 2 MT nuke will destroy a Sharlin is not an accurate statement...

That said, a 200 GT SW turbo-laser will gut the poor Black Star. Her only hope for survival is that the turbo-laser completely penetrates and continues on through past the ship carrying the bulk of the energy with it. If the gunners have the right range, and decent values on Minbari hull resistances, they can 'flak-burst' the turbo-laser inside the hull. Which would be awesome to watch...

[Dead on Arrival]

Oh and on the most realistic sci fi series, Andromeda takes the cake there. Even if by the year 5000 you'd think we'd have cracked the light barrier when it comes to communications... Atleast on a galactic level... I mean I can understand if they couldnt do it between galaxies, the distances are rather significant when you talk about that...

Are you honestly calling Andromeda realistic, or did I misunderstand what you are trying to say?

[Guest]

Now...as to the White Star...

Yeah, your probably right, it might just frag the white star...but the problem is hitting the bugger with a dead on shot. She can jiggle bird with the best of them and that Bio Armor, if it only takes glancing hits and has a chance to "learn" from the experiance, maybe give it the chance to survive more direct hits. Granted, if all the batteries on a ISD are concentrating all their fire on a single white star, then the odds are pretty good of scorring a hit.

However, White Stars hunt in packs.... which means your going to have to divide up your fire power among numerous, highly manuverable, very fast targets that can pack a bit of a wallop for ships their size.

And if worst comes to worst...just open a Jump point inside the ISD and frag it that way. Lol, the Black star used a similar trick on a EF battle group.

And yes, I was talking about Andromeda. Though I do feel that its not as advanced as we probably will be by around the year 5000. And ya gotta admit, the tech behind the majority of Andromeda's weaponry is pretty sound. HVMs, AP guns, PDLs... nothing way to far out in my opinion. Anti matter, lasers and Rail type weaponry...

What do you feel is so unrealistic(( side from maybe Slip stream))

[Dead on Arrival]

Now...as to the White Star...

White Star? Thought you were talking about the Black Star?

Yeah, your probably right, it might just frag the white star...but the problem is hitting the bugger with a dead on shot. She can jiggle bird with the best of them and that Bio Armor, if it only takes glancing hits and has a chance to "learn" from the experiance, maybe give it the chance to survive more direct hits.

While I have little doubt the White Star could evade fire from a capital ship, a few squadron of TIEs or Blastboats should be more than sufficient to deal with a White Star Wolfpack. I also would not put much faith into the VDS adapting the defenses to handle turbo-lasers, considering a White Star can not take a direct hit from a Shadow Cruiser.

Granted, if all the batteries on a ISD are concentrating all their fire on a single white star, then the odds are pretty good of scorring a hit.

Depends upon if the Minbari Jammer is effective at all against the ISD, though all it will take is one good shot from a heavy weapon to take out a White Star. It should be able to take numerous lighter weapons, though torpedoes will be ouchy...

However, White Stars hunt in packs.... which means your going to have to divide up your fire power among numerous, highly manuverable, very fast targets that can pack a bit of a wallop for ships their size.

Sadly, a flight of White Stars most likely could not penetrate the shields of an ISD...unless they concentrated firepower on the same section in the hopes of causing a small breach. Once past the shields you still have to worry about the hull/armor, which is some hefty stuff...a full powered blast from a White Star might cause a little damage.

And if worst comes to worst...just open a Jump point inside the ISD and frag it that way. Lol, the Black star used a similar trick on a EF battle group.

This kind of tactic will only work in certain conditions, and once the Imperials lose a ship or two to this will be likely on alert for it and be able to avoid the opening vortex.

What do you feel is so unrealistic(( side from maybe Slip stream))

Let's start with Phase-Density Shifting and Tesseracting. The first is like the Phase Cloaking Device from Star Trek, while the other is dimensional and has been used to remove the Vedran star system from this universe. A test of this technology on the Andromeda caused temporal and spacial distortions aligned with the door and hallways of the ship, as well as effects on a nearby planet. Maxim charges, a Nietchien (sp?) explosive device that can supposedly destroy a planet in a manner similiar to the Death Star. The Spirit of the Abyss, who was able to stop the nova-like effect of a Nova Bomb upon the central star on his Magog World Ship. Using Slipstream to accidently go back in time, and then being able to easily fix the mistake and make it back to their own time. Nova bombs are supposedly gravity reversers, and 40 were sufficient to invert the gravity of a black hole. Harper built an uber-Nova Bomb, that to believe some fans has the ability to destroy a galaxy...as it was used to destroy the device powerering some extra-dimensional invaders doorway, which was stated to be using the power of an entire galaxies stars. I could probably go on, but I don't think I need to.

Realism and Andromeda have nothing in common...

[Pablo Sanchez]

Saying a 2 MT nuke will destroy a Sharlin is not an accurate statement...

Of course it's accurate! If a 2 MT bomb can damage the reactor and make it go boom, that's as good as (and more efficient than) vaporizing it with a 200 GT turbolaser bolt. In a battle situation, their gun ports would almost certainly be open, and you would be able to place your bombs closer to the hull of the Minbari Cruiser (by missile, for example).

The debris impacts may have had a significant impact on the destruction if the Minbari hull material is intended to reflect or absorb electromagnetic energy, and is therefore more vulnerable to kinetic energy than EM. I find that explanation more likely than just claiming that the destruction by a 2 megaton nuke is some kind of special circumstance that will never be repeated.

B5 fans protesting that the Black Star destruction is a terrible, stupid thing are suffering from "Sci-Fi Series Envy." If you look at it objectively, you could see that it doesn't make the Black Star weak. I'm actually impressed that the Minbari cruiser required two such bombs to be destroyed, because a 2 megaton nuke is enough to depopulate a good-sized city! It's only when you compare it to ST and SW that it begins to look bad.

[Pablo Sanchez]

While I have little doubt the White Star could evade fire from a capital ship, a few squadron of TIEs or Blastboats should be more than sufficient to deal with a White Star Wolfpack. I also would not put much faith into the VDS adapting the defenses to handle turbo-lasers, considering a White Star can not take a direct hit from a Shadow Cruiser.

If they attack on the ISD's main arcs (port, starboard, dorsal, ventral, forward), they'd be pretty well ****ed. The ISD has enough guns to box them in and hit them. The White Stars would learn the lesson pretty fast and attack from the less deadly ventral and rear arcs, but fighters and other ships could make that problematic.

Sadly, a flight of White Stars most likely could not penetrate the shields of an ISD...unless they concentrated firepower on the same section in the hopes of causing a small breach. Once past the shields you still have to worry about the hull/armor, which is some hefty stuff...a full powered blast from a White Star might cause a little damage.

That armor is supposed to be neutronium on a "durasteel" frame, and ISDs can be blown in half and still function (Ref. Black Fleet Crisis). So, unless dozens of White Stars all hit the Bridge Tower at the same time, and managed to penetrate shields designed to resist multiple 200 GT shots, they would likely be able to blast through the viewports and kill the bridge crew. The ISD would back online in minutes or less, but it's a minor victory.

And in order to that, they would have to cross the ISD's frontal arc in tight formation. Ouch.

[Enlightenment]

I'm actually impressed that the Minbari cruiser required two such bombs to be destroyed, because a 2 megaton nuke is enough to depopulate a good-sized city!

A 2MT device detonated in an Earth-like atmosphere would cause 3rd degree burns within a 15km radius. It would destroy most buildings within a 5.5km radius. Depending on burst type, fallout effects could kill more people, but this is still a fair bit short of the yield needed to depopulate a good-sized city.

All this is very much irrelevant to the matter at hand, however, as nuclear effects are very different in space. At the 2km estimated range between the hand-of-Sheridian nuke and the Black Star, the x-ray pulse from a 2MT device results in a target exposure of only 1.5e8j/m^2 for one microsecond This is just enough power to melt the surface of an aluminium plate. It is not enough power to utterly vaporize a few hundred meter wide ship--even without considering the effects of Minbari Magic Armor<tm>.

The problem with the destruction of the Black Star is not that it makes B5 look weak but rather that the implied physics contravene reality.

[Dead on Arrival]

Of course it's accurate! If a 2 MT bomb can damage the reactor and make it go boom, that's as good as (and more efficient than) vaporizing it with a 200 GT turbolaser bolt.

Did you even read what I wrote? The initial EM-flash which would hit the Black Star near instantly, yet there was no visible damage to the Black Star until after the secondary 'wave' of plasma and rock, that was once the asteroid the nuke was mounted on, passed the ship. The Black Star did in fact easily absorb several kT of energy, which given the estimated intensity (thank you Enlightenment for the math) is not all that impressive anyway.

In the episode with the Berserker Probe, a 500 GT bomb was detonated 5,000 km from the station. That results in an intensity of 6.67 MJ/m^2, which using a 300 meter radius for the facing area of the station gives a total energy of 1.89 TJ (.45 kT). No damage was suffered by the station, yet if you directed that same amount of energy into a single bolt you would penetrate the armor...in a small, localized spot. Same thing applies to the Black Star, as the total energy was absorbed (as it should have been) with no visible damage. Even the novel suggests it was the 'shockwaves' of the nukes that caused the damage, which given the movement of the asteroids near the point of detonation can be used to show that significantly more than 2 MT was released by the nuke.

In a battle situation, their gun ports would almost certainly be open, and you would be able to place your bombs closer to the hull of the Minbari Cruiser (by missile, for example).

With the gunports open parts of the 'wave' could impact an internal and un-armored/protected section on a charged system, perhaps causing the sudden and catastrophic release of energy inside the ship.

The debris impacts may have had a significant impact on the destruction if the Minbari hull material is intended to reflect or absorb electromagnetic energy, and is therefore more vulnerable to kinetic energy than EM.

This same armor has to deal with high speed plasma and particle weapons, which would require a material capable of physically stopping the particles making up the bolt/beam before they can be reflected or what have you. If the armor cannot stop said particles, its ability to reflect energy will be less than useless.

[Master of Ossus]

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Yeah, your probably right, it might just frag the white star...but the problem is hitting the bugger with a dead on shot. She can jiggle bird with the best of them and that Bio Armor, if it only takes glancing hits and has a chance to "learn" from the experiance, maybe give it the chance to survive more direct hits. Granted, if all the batteries on a ISD are concentrating all their fire on a single white star, then the odds are pretty good of scorring a hit.

However, White Stars hunt in packs.... which means your going to have to divide up your fire power among numerous, highly manuverable, very fast targets that can pack a bit of a wallop for ships their size.
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WTF? If you're trying to say that White Stars could take out Star Destroyers, you have a thing or two coming. Star Destroyers are able to adequately protect themselves from starfighters which equal (or exceed) the maneuverability of the White Star. Even if you believe that the White Star is more maneuverable than X-Wings, it is also far larger (from 15 to about 325 times larger, depending on the estimate and the part of the ship being measured). Sorry, but that puts it in (SW) range of corvettes and gunships, which SD's dominate.

As for the Black Star, that was not the only example of a powerful B5 ship being destroyed by under-powered nuclear weapons, but the other example is not nearly as bad. In Hour of the Wolf, 500 megaton weapons destroyer or cripple shadow battle crabs. This is inconsistent with B5er claims that their ships would be able to easily wipe out Star Destroyers.

Finally (why doesn't anyone understand this) debris travelling with the blast of a nuclear weapon would NOT magnify the effects of the blast by very much, if at all. Large pieces of debris would actually LESSEN the impact of the blast, because it takes energy in order to change the direction of an object that is moving. Thus, in order to get an asteroid moving perpendicular to a nuclear blast, the nuclear blast would need to transfer energy into the asteroid in order to redirect it. The only ways that debris could significantly increase the amount of energy that the Black Star was absorbing would be if the said asteroid was significantly closer to the bomb than the Black Star, and THEN it happened to hit the Black Star after the blast or an asteroid travelling fairly quickly (or a slow one with huge mass) were deflected so that it preserved most of its momentum while still altering its direction enough to hit the Black Star. This is not what we see in the film. Instead we see relatively small pieces of debris that are fairly evenly spaced throughout the explosion flying towards the BS. To say that debris like that significantly increased the amount of energy that the Black Star had to withstand is inconsistent with the film and the laws of physics.[/quote]