Helm's Deep - Jedi

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-12-28 04:09pm

True, but they didn't destroy the rings, nor did they take off again and destroy the Trade Fed ships as they were escaping. And when did I claim they were sheilded when they were landed? (P.s. By at geonosis I meant in orbit, not on the ground. They couldn't fire the QTL's without killing a large number of their own troops anyway.)

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-12-28 04:13pm

Yes, I know what you meant. However, there were no Acclamators in orbit when the Trade Federation ships took off, if I recall. All the Acclamators had landed to dump their troops.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-12-28 04:28pm

Yes, I know, I for one would have liked to see the Accs as multirole...

Still we know they can't take on a Tradefed ship one on one, so if we count the ones on geonosis, minus the one destroyed lifting off, we are left with a number of ships that reached orbit, then we need a number of accs, and could give an estimate for how an orbital battle would have gone. (We need a Trade fed ICS for the various rings, and a Republic ICS and an Imperial ICS, and a New Repubic ICS. That should keep Dr Saxton busy for a few years

)

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2002-12-28 06:04pm

AdmiralKanos wrote:Only 50 Uruk-hai for each Jedi means that the Uruk-hai are hopelessly outnumbered.

Wasn't each Jedi in the movie considered able to handle 100 battle droids individually, or something like that?

(I seem to recall Dooku saying something about that.) At the very least there were thousands, if not tens of thousands, at Geonosis prior to the TRade Fed fleet arriving.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2002-12-28 06:05pm

Durandal wrote:Yes, I know what you meant. However, there were no Acclamators in orbit when the Trade Federation ships took off, if I recall. All the Acclamators had landed to dump their troops.

They might have taken off later to engage the Trade Fed fleet in orbit. I recall the novelization describing a space battle taking place. (Some of the core ships did make it back to the TF battleship rings.)

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-12-28 06:14pm

The Jedi would easily hold the Uruks. Think of it this way: if there were Jedi using the Force, the Uruks could never breach the walls. Their ladders and ropes would be repelled, and any Uruks lucky (unlucky?) enough to make it to the top could be easily dispatched of. The Jedi hold out.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-12-28 06:14pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:
AdmiralKanos wrote:Only 50 Uruk-hai for each Jedi means that the Uruk-hai are hopelessly outnumbered.
Wasn't each Jedi in the movie considered able to handle 100 battle droids individually, or something like that?

(I seem to recall Dooku saying something about that.) At the very least there were thousands, if not tens of thousands, at Geonosis prior to the TRade Fed fleet arriving.

No. When Dooku tells Mace Windu that he's hopelessly outnumbered, Windu said, "I don't think so. 1 Jedi must be worth a hundred Geonosians," to which Dooku replies, "I wasn't referring to the Geonosians." This was in the novel.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2002-12-28 06:21pm

Durandal wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote:
AdmiralKanos wrote:Only 50 Uruk-hai for each Jedi means that the Uruk-hai are hopelessly outnumbered.
Wasn't each Jedi in the movie considered able to handle 100 battle droids individually, or something like that?

(I seem to recall Dooku saying something about that.) At the very least there were thousands, if not tens of thousands, at Geonosis prior to the TRade Fed fleet arriving.
No. When Dooku tells Mace Windu that he's hopelessly outnumbered, Windu said, "I don't think so. 1 Jedi must be worth a hundred Geonosians," to which Dooku replies, "I wasn't referring to the Geonosians." This was in the novel.

True, but the Geonosians had the sonic weapons.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-12-28 06:32pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Durandal wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote: Wasn't each Jedi in the movie considered able to handle 100 battle droids individually, or something like that?

(I seem to recall Dooku saying something about that.) At the very least there were thousands, if not tens of thousands, at Geonosis prior to the TRade Fed fleet arriving.
No. When Dooku tells Mace Windu that he's hopelessly outnumbered, Windu said, "I don't think so. 1 Jedi must be worth a hundred Geonosians," to which Dooku replies, "I wasn't referring to the Geonosians." This was in the novel.
The majority of them were unarmed.
True, but the Geonosians had the sonic weapons.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-12-28 06:32pm

Oops.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-12-28 06:36pm

The majority of Geonosians who were in the arena were unarmed, but the vast majority of those that engaged in combat WERE armed with sonic blasters or even artillery pieces. I think it clear that Windu was referring to the armed Geonosians, as the rest of them merely ran away when the first lightsabers clicked on.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2002-12-28 07:55pm

Regardless, if Gimli can accumulate nearly 50 kills to his name fighting Orcs on their terms, without any special powers or magical aids, I find it hard to believe a Jedi would likewise have trouble.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2002-12-28 07:57pm

This is even ignoring the fact that they dont even need to worry about Orc Armor (remember what Gimli said one of the prime "problems" with the Uruk-hai was? They were durable in their armor and shields.)

For that matter, whats to stop the Jedi from flinging rocks down on them, or throwing their lightsabers at them (much like Luke did in HTTE to the Noghri kidnappers he faced.) The Jedi wouldn't even NEED to get close.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2002-12-28 07:59pm

For that matter, aren't we neglecting the Jedi's abilities to influence minds? I think it would be a rather simple matter for them to influence orcs into fighting amongst themselves (anyone remember how they fought amongst themselves after capturing Merry and Pippin?)

Captain Cyran · Post by **Captain Cyran** » 2002-12-28 08:03pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:For that matter, aren't we neglecting the Jedi's abilities to influence minds? I think it would be a rather simple matter for them to influence orcs into fighting amongst themselves (anyone remember how they fought amongst themselves after capturing Merry and Pippin?)

It's possible, but I don't think they could effect enough minds fast enough to make any difference. It would be foolish as they try to effect some minds as the rest of the Urak Hai army runs them over. Sure it sounds cool, but it wouldn't work to well.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2002-12-28 08:38pm

Captain_Cyran wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote:For that matter, aren't we neglecting the Jedi's abilities to influence minds? I think it would be a rather simple matter for them to influence orcs into fighting amongst themselves (anyone remember how they fought amongst themselves after capturing Merry and Pippin?)
It's possible, but I don't think they could effect enough minds fast enough to make any difference. It would be foolish as they try to effect some minds as the rest of the Urak Hai army runs them over. Sure it sounds cool, but it wouldn't work to well.

Start at the back or sides and work forward.

Captain Cyran · Post by **Captain Cyran** » 2002-12-28 08:44pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Captain_Cyran wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote:For that matter, aren't we neglecting the Jedi's abilities to influence minds? I think it would be a rather simple matter for them to influence orcs into fighting amongst themselves (anyone remember how they fought amongst themselves after capturing Merry and Pippin?)
It's possible, but I don't think they could effect enough minds fast enough to make any difference. It would be foolish as they try to effect some minds as the rest of the Urak Hai army runs them over. Sure it sounds cool, but it wouldn't work to well.
Start at the back or sides and work forward.

There are way to many to work your way forward, by the time the jedi could even get halfway they'd have been dead for a full minute. The only way this could possibly work is if they started at the front of the lines and effected enough of them to slow them down long enough to effect more minds. You may be thinking "Well Obi effected that guy selling deathsticks no problem." But that was within...not even a foot, the ranges we're talking about for this plan to work it would have to be farther away than when the Urak-Hai army had stopped just before charging Helm's Deep.

Raptor 597 · Post by **Raptor 597** » 2002-12-28 09:06pm

Also, their were more then 10,000 minds too deal with. more effective would of been force pushes.

Captain Cyran · Post by **Captain Cyran** » 2002-12-28 09:08pm

Captain Lennox wrote:Also, their were more then 10,000 minds too deal with. more effective would of been force pushes.

That was kind of what I was getting at. Yeah, I'd say force pushes would work very well.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-12-28 09:10pm

How would the Jedi deal with Dooku's tactics if he started downing them from afar with lightning and letting the Uruk Hai chop them up while they were stunned. I imagine that Dooku would want to try and isolate as many Jedi as possible and take them out or distract them enough to make a dent in their numbers.

Captain Cyran · Post by **Captain Cyran** » 2002-12-28 09:12pm

Stravo wrote:How would the Jedi deal with Dooku's tactics if he started downing them from afar with lightning and letting the Uruk Hai chop them up while they were stunned. I imagine that Dooku would want to try and isolate as many Jedi as possible and take them out or distract them enough to make a dent in their numbers.

I think it would take the jedi, maybe a minute tops, before they realize what is going on and go Dooku hunting.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2002-12-28 09:17pm

[quote="Captain_Cyran]I think it would take the jedi, maybe a minute tops, before they realize what is going on and go Dooku hunting.[/quote] I think the key term is "from afar." Ths would mean the Jedi would have to wade through the crowds of Uruk-Hai to get to him. They would undoubtedly slay them without contest, but by then either A.) Dooku would catch them by suprise, and kill them himself, or B.) he would simply run to the other side of the other side of the battlefield. Then the Jedi would have ot wade more Uruks to get to him. Rinse, repeat.

Captain Cyran · Post by **Captain Cyran** » 2002-12-28 09:21pm

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:[quote="Captain_Cyran]I think it would take the jedi, maybe a minute tops, before they realize what is going on and go Dooku hunting.

I think the key term is "from afar." Ths would mean the Jedi would have to wade through the crowds of Uruk-Hai to get to him. They would undoubtedly slay them without contest, but by then either A.) Dooku would catch them by suprise, and kill them himself, or B.) he would simply run to the other side of the other side of the battlefield. Then the Jedi would have ot wade more Uruks to get to him. Rinse, repeat.[/quote]

As long as they stay relatively togther instead of being morons and spreading out that tactic should meet with limited success. They can't protect every jedi if one goes down, but it's real unlikely that they'll have massive casualties. And in the meantime they are just slaughtering Urak-Hai left and right.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-28 09:25pm

If Dooku could so easily knock down Jedi from afar, he wouldn't have had to use his lightsabre to fight Obi-Wan and Anakin. Anakin was just overconfident when he first charged him. There's no reason to believe Dooku could do anything more than co-ordinate, unless a Jedi gets close to him. And co-ordination of Uruk-hai, as Sea Skimmer pointed out, would only leave more neatly stacked rows of dead bodies.

Captain Cyran · Post by **Captain Cyran** » 2002-12-28 09:29pm

Darth Wong wrote:If Dooku could so easily knock down Jedi from afar, he wouldn't have had to use his lightsabre to fight Obi-Wan and Anakin. Anakin was just overconfident when he first charged him. There's no reason to believe Dooku could do anything more than co-ordinate, unless a Jedi gets close to him. And co-ordination of Uruk-hai, as Sea Skimmer pointed out, would only leave more neatly stacked rows of dead bodies.

Yeah I definately agree there, the Urak-hai would be horribly slaughtered in their attempt. I really really doubt that Yoda would have to show up. Now for a more fair fight let's pit all the Clone troopers shown at the very end of the movie vs. the Urak-hai.