Egypt source of Hebrew Myths

Kitsune · Post by **Kitsune** » 2006-11-16 06:10pm

I always assume that the legends of Mesopotania and that area were the source of most of the legends in the bible. I am presently reading "101 Myths of the Bible: How Ancient Scribes Invented Biblical History" and that author suggests an Egyptian source for most of the myths. Opinions on this?

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2006-11-16 06:52pm

Sounds like bullshit to me; my understanding is the the hebrews as a semitic tribe in canaan inherited from that set of religions and societies, and I'm sure Sumer had an influence too. Maybe Egypt did, but I'm not exactly a scholar, I'd like to see some decent proper evidence. Myths often run along archetypal structures, but we can see more likely candidates for cultural mythological origins in the ugaritic tablets than we can in Egypt, at least, that's my understanding.

Read this, it contains a load of pertinent, interesting biblical history.

Kitsune · Post by **Kitsune** » 2006-11-16 07:02pm

What the writer did was compare specific bible myths with similar Egyptian myths such as one of the Egytian Pharaohs having split a body of water to drown an enemy army and how similar that is to the Moses myth.

Another is that the Plagues sound alot like an older Egyptian account of a period of strife in Egypt.

I have not read any of his other books but he appears to suggest that the Akanaton cult has ties with the Hebrew groups.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2006-11-16 07:43pm

Undoubtedly, there was a lot of borrowing from other religions and I can't see how the ancient Hebrews would NOT be influenced by their powerful neighbor.

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2006-11-16 07:59pm

I hesitate to call the Hebrews mere imitators of Egyptian culture. Generally there is a measure of cultural diffusion on both sides. To say that the Egyptians are authoritatively the source of the Hebrew myths denies the importance of the far more proximate Sumerians and other surrounding civilizations.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2006-11-16 08:14pm

wolveraptor wrote:I hesitate to call the Hebrews mere imitators of Egyptian culture. Generally there is a measure of cultural diffusion on both sides. To say that the Egyptians are authoritatively the source of the Hebrew myths denies the importance of the far more proximate Sumerians and other surrounding civilizations.

He didn't deny the importance of other civilisations though. The book aptly pointed out that many biblical myths has its counterparts in Egyptian mythology and since the Egyptian ones were older, its more likely that they were the source.

IIRC, the book doesn't even talk about Moses.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2006-11-16 08:55pm

Really?

But "Moses" is not a name of Hebrew origins but rather one of the more frankly Ancient Egyptian derieved names in the Bible. There are some rather intriguing parallels between what we know of the Egyptian religion of the time and many of the things in Exodus. Most of which I don't have time to go into right now.

Ariphaos · Post by **Ariphaos** » 2006-11-16 10:31pm

'Atum' is sometimes linked with 'Adam'.

Egypt invaded Israel circa 1100 BCE, but the Bible makes no record of it. They obviously had an effect, probably one of resentment.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2006-11-17 08:38am

Xeriar wrote:'Atum' is sometimes linked with 'Adam'.

Pffft.

Atum is rarely depicted as a human, he is most usually depicted as a bull with the solar disc between his horns. He created himself (or arose) from nothing, in contrast to God making the world from enforcing his rule on the chaotic waters in the Bible, similar to Marduk and Tiamat myths in Sumer rather than the Egyptian one referenced. Adam, meanwhile is a pun on "adamah" meaning dirt, because that's what he was made from.

That's a clear case of "they sound similar in myths that serve the same archetypal purpose so they might be connected," and is totally unconvincing.

As for Egyptian influence on Exodus, my understanding is that the argument for a historical basis says that cultural histories that mention enslavement are pretty rare so it may have been that they were enslaved and in Egypt at one time to account for that. The metaphorical basis says that this may be a leftover bit of resentment from when Egypt dominated a large part of the Canaan area on the ass-end of the bronze age.

As for taking of myths from one another, everyone does it, I wouldn't be that surprised, but when people claim one directly descended from another, it should be more than a "Mithra grew out of a rock, Jesus was born of a virgin later, these are really similar events," sort of thing.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2006-11-17 10:04am

Rye wrote:Atum is rarely depicted as a human, he is most usually depicted as a bull with the solar disc between his horns. He created himself (or arose) from nothing, in contrast to God making the world from enforcing his rule on the chaotic waters in the Bible, similar to Marduk and Tiamat myths in Sumer rather than the Egyptian one referenced. Adam, meanwhile is a pun on "adamah" meaning dirt, because that's what he was made from.

Ahem. Atum is often depicted as human, as an old man. Not initially, but in later eras, most certainly. Even more rarely, he had a hawk head, but mostly, a man of indeterminate age, sometimes fairly youthful, sometimes obviously leaning on a stick (when he was associated with the setting sun) Of course, Atum has nothing to do with Adam beyond a similar name.

What with Atum being a smart god of masturbation.

And Adam being a sucker.

Setesh · Post by **Setesh** » 2006-11-17 11:31am

Some bits are hard to find some aren't but very little of it is original.

Though some of it is out of date Jesus Never Existed has tons on what in the bible is easily disproved. My favorite is the easily proved plagiarism of 'Solomon's wisdom and proverbs' a lot of which is stolen off the Maxims of Amenhotep III.

Read the commentaries on the site. They're about as bad as some of Lord Wong's hate mail on his Cvs.E site.

first comment ever wrote:you are probably among the lowest scum on earth.......to not believe jesus is the messiah....ok your loss but to deny his very existence......have fun eating out satans ass in hell.....hopefully u find god before that happens to your sorry self.

Ariphaos · Post by **Ariphaos** » 2006-11-17 11:35am

Setesh wrote:Some bits are hard to find some aren't but very little of it is original.

Though some of it is out of date Jesus Never Existed has tons on what in the bible is easily disproved. My favorite is the easily proved plagiarism of 'Solomon's wisdom and proverbs' a lot of which is stolen off the Maxims of Amenhotep III.

Wasn't Amenhotep IV the first one to espouse a monotheistic religion?

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2006-11-17 12:23pm

NecronLord wrote:Ahem. Atum is often depicted as human, as an old man.

My mistake.

Not initially, but in later eras, most certainly. Even more rarely, he had a hawk head, but mostly, a man of indeterminate age, sometimes fairly youthful, sometimes obviously leaning on a stick (when he was associated with the setting sun) Of course, Atum has nothing to do with Adam beyond a similar name.

Exactly. It's from a different language so I don't see why we would posit a pun in ancient hebrew being from ancient egyptian.

Also, fuck jesusneverexisted.com. He says fucking Nazareth isn't real, that's when you stop reading. Antichristian apologetics just let the "atheist side" down if we/they want to be seen as dedicated to accuracy and objectivity, not just dismissing things because they were found/recorded by catholics (the horror).

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-11-17 12:26pm

Xeriar wrote:
Setesh wrote:Some bits are hard to find some aren't but very little of it is original.

Though some of it is out of date Jesus Never Existed has tons on what in the bible is easily disproved. My favorite is the easily proved plagiarism of 'Solomon's wisdom and proverbs' a lot of which is stolen off the Maxims of Amenhotep III.
Wasn't Amenhotep IV the first one to espouse a monotheistic religion?

IIRC, that was Akhenaten. He introduced monotheism, and not coincidentally, religious persecution.

Setesh · Post by **Setesh** » 2006-11-17 12:33pm

Xeriar wrote:Wasn't Amenhotep IV the first one to espouse a monotheistic religion?

Yup he tried to force it on his empire, changed his name to Akhenaten, his wife Nefertiti is more well known thanks to that bust of her in the Altes Museum. He forcibly 'converted' his people to the worship of Aten (also the egyptian word for the sun disk so its sometimes The Aten.) This brief stint of monotheism didn't last. Akhenaten wasn't originally in line for the throne. His brother's untimely death put him there and he was ill prepared to rule the then vast egyptian empire. Matters of state were neglected, several allies were lost or conquered by the expanding Hitites. Letters found in the city Akhenaten built, Akhetaten, showed many of the subject states were screaming for gold nessicary to run the empire. Then one of the worlds first lethal flu epidemics swept the region.

After Akhenaten died his very young son Tutanhkamun was dropped on the throne and the priests of the old religeon took back the nation (and mostly ran it) for the Gods. The people saw the maladies of Akhenaten's reign as a curse from the gods for Aten worship. Buildings and statues of Akhenaten were defaced, even his very name was to be targeted for expulsion of every surface. (this is tantamount to spiritual murder in the egyptian religeon, your 'self' in the afterlife is only retained as long as records of your name exist.)

Tutankhamun was actually born Tutankhaten, but his name was changed in the purge.

This was on the whole not a bad thing. Aky was a terrible ruler and every aspect of the culture suffered under him. After him egypt quickly undid the damage he caused.

Setesh · Post by **Setesh** » 2006-11-17 12:38pm

Darth Wong wrote: IIRC, that was Akhenaten. He introduced monotheism, and not coincidentally, religious persecution.

You do recall correctly, Akhenaten and Amenhotep IV just happen to be the same guy. If that isn't bad enough he has a third name, pharoah's have a name that only applies when they are on the throne. Aky's was Neferkheperre-waenre (Beautiful are the forms of Re - the one of Re)