SOD and VFX versus dialogue

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Darth Servo
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Post by Darth Servo »

linearA wrote:Of course I never explained that. Read my first post. I never once claimed that my method would somehow allow us to extract more information than SoD. In fact, I said the exact opposite in my first post. I readily admitted, from the start, that it is more subjective. I said only that it is more consistent. It only solves the problems inherent in SoD by treating them as accounts, rather than actual documentary footage. I have no clue what Saavik actually looks like, or what those matte paintings are supposed to look like, and I never said I did. But under my methodology, those matte paintings are not bound to be interpreted as accurate depictions, so the question is irrelevant...


...That’s ridiculous. I never said we can’t trust anything deriving from SoD. I said a historical approach to the source material would be superior, because we wouldn’t need to explain visual discrepancies such as recasting and stock footage.
So in your dictionary, "more consistant" means "more wiggle room".
What I’m doing is pointing out the flaws in the methodology of SoD, and explaining how my methodology can correct them by reinterpreting the source material. I’m not claiming my methodology can extract information more accurately than SoD. In fact, I’m claiming the opposite.
How do you correct something by throwing up your arms and saying "I don't know"?
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Post by Darth Servo »

Even if SoD DID say that all visuals are infalliable, it CAN explain the difference in Saavik's appearance. Its called "plastic surgery" :P
"everytime a person is born the Earth weighs just a little more."--DMJ on StarTrek.com
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Post by linearA »

Darth Servo wrote:Even if SoD DID say that all visuals are infalliable, it CAN explain the difference in Saavik's appearance. Its called "plastic surgery" :P
Since my methodology is being compared with creationism, I would counter by saying that SoD is actually closer to the creationist mindset. And your post here certainly lends credence to my position.

Consider the way Creationists/Biblical literalists handle contradictory information in the Bible:

In the New Testament, the Book of Matthew recounts how the traitor apostle Judas hung himself after betraying his master. Yet, the Book of Acts recounts how this same traitor apostle actually threw himself off a cliff.

How does the Creationist/Biblical literalist handle this glaring problem? He says:

“Well, since we read both of them in the Bible, both accounts must be true. Therefore, Judas probably hung himself on a branch protruding over the edge of a cliff, which then snapped, causing him to fall off the cliff. So Judas hung himself AND fell off a cliff! See, there’s no problem.”

How does the professional historian handle this same contradiction? He says:

“The divergent accounts stem from two different traditions regarding the apostle Judas. If Judas actually existed, we don’t know how he died.”

Now, let’s turn to Star Trek. How does the SoD adherent deal with the contradictory appearance of Saavik?

“Well, we saw Saavik in both films, so both accounts must be true. Therefore, Saavik probably looked like Kirstie Alley in Star Trek II, but then she got plastic surgery for some reason, which explains why she looked different in Star Trek III. See, there’s no problem.”

Yet, how would I propose we deal with the contradiction?

"There are two accounts which provide contradictory information regarding Saavik's appearence. Therefore, we don't know what she really looked like."
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Post by Darth Wong »

linearA wrote:Now, let’s turn to Star Trek. How does the SoD adherent deal with the contradictory appearance of Saavik?

“Well, we saw Saavik in both films, so both accounts must be true. Therefore, Saavik probably looked like Kirstie Alley in Star Trek II, but then she got plastic surgery for some reason, which explains why she looked different in Star Trek III. See, there’s no problem.”

Yet, how would I propose we deal with the contradiction?

"There are two accounts which provide contradictory information regarding Saavik's appearence. Therefore, we don't know what she really looked like."
Since I already stated previously that SoD does not require you to behave this way, you're just being a lying asshole for pretending that it does.

When someone resorts to outright lies about his opponent's position, it's pretty obvious that his own position is worthless. Otherwise he'd be able to argue the point without having to lie about it.
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Post by Darth Wong »

linearA wrote:Of course I never explained that. Read my first post. I never once claimed that my method would somehow allow us to extract more information than SoD.
Then WHAT MAKES IT BETTER, dumbfuck?
In fact, I said the exact opposite in my first post. I readily admitted, from the start, that it is more subjective. I said only that it is more consistent. It only solves the problems inherent in SoD by treating them as accounts, rather than actual documentary footage. I have no clue what Saavik actually looks like, or what those matte paintings are supposed to look like, and I never said I did. But under my methodology, those matte paintings are not bound to be interpreted as accurate depictions, so the question is irrelevant.
Then WHAT MAKES IT BETTER, dumbfuck?
You’re merely projecting the problems with your methodology onto mine. Under the methodology I propose, we wouldn’t need to ask what Saavik actually looks like, or what those colonies actually look like, because we interpret them as accounts rather than actual documentary footage.
So? Even an account can be descriptive, moron. Does Saavik have a high-cheekboned face, as per ST3, or does she have a more round face, as per ST2?
SoD claims that this footage is actual documentary footage, so SoD is burdened with explaining things like the sort of questions you’re asking about Saavik, etc. My answer to “what does Saavik look like” is we don’t know, because the available evidence is contradictory. What is yours?
You know, I grow tired of your lies. How many times have I pointed out to you that SoD says we should treat it in a manner analogous to the way we treat documentary footage, which is NOT the same thing as saying that it is ACTUALLY of the same quality of real documentary footage?
That’s ridiculous. I never said we can’t trust anything deriving from SoD. I said a historical approach to the source material would be superior, because we wouldn’t need to explain visual discrepancies such as recasting and stock footage.
First, you don't even know what a proper historical approach is. Your approach is literary, not historical. Second, visual discrepancies under SoD are treated the same way as confusing experimental data in real-life. Something must be wrong with the experiment, so the result is junk and we file it under the "don't know" category. So in the WORST CASE scenario, SoD produces the same result as your method. In every other case, it produces far more information than yours does.
Furthermore, the methodology I’m proposing is nothing like creationism. Creationism sets out with the stated goal of explaining the existence we observe, but it offers little or no positive evidence for the cosmological model it advocates, instead focusing on negative evidence against the opposition.
Which is precisely what you're doing, liar. You don't give any reason whatsoever to prefer your method other than claiming that SoD is no good because it can't explain certain things which are unexplainable in-context anyway.
What I’m doing is pointing out the flaws in the methodology of SoD, and explaining how my methodology can correct them by reinterpreting the source material. I’m not claiming my methodology can extract information more accurately than SoD. In fact, I’m claiming the opposite.
Your methodology is totally ill-defined and doesn't "correct" jack shit, moron. It doesn't explain ANYTHING which SoD can't explain, and its only benefit, even according to your apologist spin-doctoring, is that it doesn't even try.
And as long as we’re throwing half-baked Creationist analogies around, perhaps it is you who more closely represents the creationist mindset in this case, in that you wish to hold on to the higher degree of certainty provided by your methodology, even though it yields inconsistent results and needs to clumsily explain away obvious problems, similar to the way creationists refuse to believe that the Bible may contain inaccurate passages.
Yet again, you resort to outright lies, asshole. Why don't you go through this thread and count the number of times I have pointed out that even in real-life science, we accept the possibility of error?

As I said in my previous post, your position is so weak that you have resorted to outright lies about my position in order to gain traction for yours. You're a lying little shit, and your "method" isn't even properly defined, much less demonstrably superior or even equal. Your method of argument is identical to that of "intelligent design" bullshit, which is the particular brand of creationist idiocy that your thinking most closely mirrors.
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"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

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Post by brianeyci »

As a correction, I see nothing in here that actually looks like a literary approach. It's his own invented kind of analysis. When he said that New Criticism, one of the types of literary analysis, was worthless compared to other types of literary analysis, he exposed himself as having no formal training in literary analysis. He even admitted it himself that he's never used it before now, and he made it up. If he used this kind of approach with an English essay, and said we couldn't conclude anything with the Savvik example, he would fail... concluding nothing is not an argument.

What really nails it down is the flying letters in space. Does he really believe SoD says that there are really flying letters detailing the name of the movie and status of the Rebellion above an ISD? :roll:. He's obviously being dishonest about it. The flying letters are not really there, just like Savvik's "problem" is ignored, just like same backgrounds are ignored or just accepted, etc.
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Post by Darth Servo »

linearA wrote:
Darth Servo wrote:Even if SoD DID say that all visuals are infalliable, it CAN explain the difference in Saavik's appearance. Its called "plastic surgery" :P
Since my methodology is being compared with creationism, I would counter by saying that SoD is actually closer to the creationist mindset. And your post here certainly lends credence to my position.
I note that the word "IF" is clearly not in your vocabulary.

Consider the way Creationists/Biblical literalists handle contradictory information in the Bible:

In the New Testament, the Book of Matthew recounts how the traitor apostle Judas hung himself after betraying his master. Yet, the Book of Acts recounts how this same traitor apostle actually threw himself off a cliff.

How does the Creationist/Biblical literalist handle this glaring problem? He says:

“Well, since we read both of them in the Bible, both accounts must be true. Therefore, Judas probably hung himself on a branch protruding over the edge of a cliff, which then snapped, causing him to fall off the cliff. So Judas hung himself AND fell off a cliff! See, there’s no problem.”

How does the professional historian handle this same contradiction? He says:

“The divergent accounts stem from two different traditions regarding the apostle Judas. If Judas actually existed, we don’t know how he died.”

Now, let’s turn to Star Trek. How does the SoD adherent deal with the contradictory appearance of Saavik?

“Well, we saw Saavik in both films, so both accounts must be true. Therefore, Saavik probably looked like Kirstie Alley in Star Trek II, but then she got plastic surgery for some reason, which explains why she looked different in Star Trek III. See, there’s no problem.”[/quote]
Are you seriously so retarded that you can't tell the difference in reliableness between an OBSERVATION and reading about something in a 2000 year old book?
Yet, how would I propose we deal with the contradiction?

"There are two accounts which provide contradictory information regarding Saavik's appearence. Therefore, we don't know what she really looked like."
In other words, throw your hands in the air and squeal, "duh, I dunno" which is exactly what creationists do every time they say "duh, God did it" every time they face something they can't understand.
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"Watching Sarli argue with Vympel, Stas, Schatten and the others is as bizarre as the idea of the 40-year-old Virgin telling Hugh Hefner that Hef knows nothing about pussy, and that he is the expert."--Elfdart
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Post by Darth Wong »

LinearA's attempt to necro a thread without adding even a single genuinely new argument has been split to where it belongs.
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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
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