USA vs Mordor, with a twist

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2002-12-28 08:35pm

Mordor (including the lands itself, Saruman and Orthanc, the lands of the East in alliance with Sauron, and the whole of Moria) have been transplanted onto Earth, as a separate continent (if neccessary, assume it transplanted either one of the poles or Australia)

Meanwhile, the Ring has been discovered, and its in the USA. Sauron knows its there, and launches an attack consisting of 10,000 orcs to get it. Naturally, he gets his ass handed to him, but in true Sauron fashion manages to finagle his way (how is left up to your imagination) into surviving without losing anything (Yes yes, its contrived, but so what?)

Sauron now realizes the huge technological gap he faces, and while he rebuilds his forces lost in the first battle, he engages in some "black market" acquisitions of modern weapons and vehicles. He amasses a force assumed to be comparable in both size and quality to that of what used to be Russia (collectively - army, navy, air force, etc.). He's also attempting to set up a defensive network (radar, computers, communications, etc.) comparable to that in other countries, but its only partially complete (say almost two-thirds complete) In addition to the allies mentioned above, he has:

1.) increased his numbers of orcs in his armies by 150% - this includes the ones under Saruman's command and the ones in Moria. In addition, he "attempts" to train them as best as he can (or they can) into modern combat tactics and weaponry. How well he does is part of the debate.

2.) His human allies are likewise trained and oufitted with modern arms, and they form the primary "force" he uses to handle artillery, tanks, planes, etc. If neccessary, Sauron has recruited large continegents of Mercenary forces to supplement his own forces, buy/conscript/enslave troops from third world countries, and so on.

3.) 3 Balrogs, including the one at Moria (all three are in Moria actually, and all 3 are assumed to serve Sauron.)

4.) Shelob

5.) It is also assumed Sauron has command of the dead (barrow wights and such) through the Nazgul. Assume there are at most 5,000 or so - used mainly as terror forces, perhaps.

6.) Assume as well that Smaug survived from the Hobbit, and is also fighting on Sauron's side. He still has his weak spot, though (the hole in his belly.)

7.) Saruman, though unfamiliar with said technology, is attempting to understand it and set up an R&D infrastructure.

8.) Sauron has only a handful of nukes no more powerful than a few kilotons. He fears using them for encouraging a far more nasty response from the US (in other words, he's saving them for a special situation.) The US doesn't know about them, but Sauron has effectively "one" chance to use them - if he does, the US will retaliate and almost certainly devastate Sauron's armies.

He DOES have access to a variety of NBC warfare weapons, but again, he won't use them except in special or decisive circumstanes for fear of retaliation. Further, the quality of the launching platforms is inferior to that of the US.

The US has access to their full resources, including "favors" to other countries as well as bases they've established in other countries. They know Sauron wants the ring and is coming for it, but they know little else directly in Mordor (though their spies may have infiltrated his human allies.) They DO Have access to and can use NBC armaments, but according to the following restrictions:

1.) Treaties "encouraged" by Sauron have forced the US to not proactively employ its own NBC arsenal (under teh assumption Sauron would not seek to use them either.) Of course, if Sauron does use them, he breaks the treaty and all bets are off. IF the US does so first, they face extremely negative consequences from the UN and other countries.

2.) The US may attempt to use "limited" Nuclear and possibly Biological/chemical attacks on small-scale basis, so long as the attack could not be directly traced to them. ("limited" in terms of nukes is assumd to mean less than a kiloton, maybe two, in yield. Biological and chemical attacks mean those that are unlikely to spread and infect/harm/kill a large percentage of Mordor or its allies - say less than 5% of any particular group at any one time.)

3.) the US is assumed to have a measure of technological superiority to Mordor (as well as greater experience and familiarty with their weapons/technology), but this isnt neccesarily absolute.

Assuming 20 years of preparation and buildup on both sides (assume Mordor was more intensive) and the US is wary but isnt immediately expecting attack, how do things go?

(I have to admit, I still think the US has ample chances and ways to win, and this isnt as against the US as it may seem. I could be wrong though.)

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-28 08:39pm

Too goddamned complicated. No one wants to think about a scenario so long and complicated that you have to scroll down to finish reading the setup.

Besides, the idea of mindless orcs learning to use modern weapons is absurd, and all of the "heavy" ME units like Balrogs, Smaug etc will go down immediately. Smaug may have only one weak spot to arrows, but his "armour" is mere jewels, and I wouldn't want to pit jewels against a 120mm smoothbore. Same goes for Balrogs; I'd like to see one take a Daisy Cutter upside the head or a Maverick in the gut.

Your complicated network of modern weapons and alliances just makes the scenario too confusing to deal with, and it's no longer a cross-universe comparison anyway.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2002-12-28 09:09pm

Darth Wong wrote:Too goddamned complicated. No one wants to think about a scenario so long and complicated that you have to scroll down to finish reading the setup.

Besides, the idea of mindless orcs learning to use modern weapons is absurd, and all of the "heavy" ME units like Balrogs, Smaug etc will go down immediately. Smaug may have only one weak spot to arrows, but his "armour" is mere jewels, and I wouldn't want to pit jewels against a 120mm smoothbore. Same goes for Balrogs; I'd like to see one take a Daisy Cutter upside the head or a Maverick in the gut.

Your complicated network of modern weapons and alliances just makes the scenario too confusing to deal with, and it's no longer a cross-universe comparison anyway.

Damn you!

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2002-12-28 09:13pm

I can just imagine..

Sauron: "I need to buy some weapons grade plutonium.."
Kazakh man: "............................................... shit.."

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-12-28 10:00pm

Assuming he's based on Australia, which is similar in size to middle each, hell I'd just assume the two are swapped, he is utterly fucked. Middle earth may still have significant mineral resources, but economies based on just resources are shit for money. He'd be lucky to have 15 billion a year to play with after several years of development, become a whore to multinational companies and that sort of thing.

Sauron is fucked. Giving each Orc an AK-47 and an RPG-27 makes invading a bitch, but he won't be going anywhere or exporting anything the second combat starts.

In the end we learn how many BLU-109's it takes to collapse a 1400 meter magic stone tower. I say five.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2002-12-28 10:12pm

ever read grunts? it has some orcs cursed to act like military types, after they find 20th century military hardware. most amusing.

paladin · Post by **paladin** » 2002-12-28 10:16pm

Given Sauron's methods of operating, he could probably build a power base within the US without much trouble. I don't think Sauron would need any of his underlings from Middle Earth.

Post by **weemadando** » 2002-12-28 10:58pm

paladin wrote:Given Sauron's methods of operating, he could probably build a power base within the US without much trouble. I don't think Sauron would need any of his underlings from Middle Earth.

Without campaign finance reform whats to stop Sauron making donations of nice gold rings to certain political figures?

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2002-12-28 11:11pm

whats to stop him *anyway*?

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-12-29 12:26am

Big friggin guns and intelligence on the part of soldiers.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-29 12:32am

I smell someone trying to rewrite the entire basis of the scenario. Who said anything about Sauron taking human form and trying to seize power in the US? That could be Bill Gates! We're talking about Sauron trying to conquer the world, and he's not going to do that as Mr. Scary because Americans have lots of instinctive reactions to Mr. Scary, most of which involve the word "ordnance".

Morning Star · Post by **Morning Star** » 2002-12-29 12:34am

Darth Wong wrote:Too goddamned complicated. No one wants to think about a scenario so long and complicated that you have to scroll down to finish reading the setup.

Besides, the idea of mindless orcs learning to use modern weapons is absurd, and all of the "heavy" ME units like Balrogs, Smaug etc will go down immediately. Smaug may have only one weak spot to arrows, but his "armour" is mere jewels, and I wouldn't want to pit jewels against a 120mm smoothbore. Same goes for Balrogs; I'd like to see one take a Daisy Cutter upside the head or a Maverick in the gut.

Your complicated network of modern weapons and alliances just makes the scenario too confusing to deal with, and it's no longer a cross-universe comparison anyway.

Well that was a downer.

I did try to read through but my head started to hurt, so I'll just go with my Tolkien fanasticism and say Sauron.

Morning Star · Post by **Morning Star** » 2002-12-29 12:37am

Darth Wong wrote:I smell someone trying to rewrite the entire basis of the scenario. Who said anything about Sauron taking human form and trying to seize power in the US? That could be Bill Gates! We're talking about Sauron trying to conquer the world, and he's not going to do that as Mr. Scary because Americans have lots of instinctive reactions to Mr. Scary, most of which involve the word "ordnance".

There's a good one: Bill Gate's vs Sauron. i hate Gates, smug bastard.

I think US soldiers may be a little phased by the whole... army of fantasy monsters coming towards them...with tanks.

Connor: Does Sauron get his trolls?

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-12-29 12:45am

Morning Star wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:I smell someone trying to rewrite the entire basis of the scenario. Who said anything about Sauron taking human form and trying to seize power in the US? That could be Bill Gates! We're talking about Sauron trying to conquer the world, and he's not going to do that as Mr. Scary because Americans have lots of instinctive reactions to Mr. Scary, most of which involve the word "ordnance".
There's a good one: Bill Gate's vs Sauron. i hate Gates, smug bastard.

I think US soldiers may be a little phased by the whole... army of fantasy monsters coming towards them...with tanks.

Connor: Does Sauron get his trolls?

Perhapes, for the ninety seconds it takes the opening artillery salvo's to impact. It would be near impossibul to get the Orcs to use anything more complex then an AK-47 and even thats iffy.

Nations on Earth, notably Iran and Pakistan, have major problems training soldiers for even basic infantry task because of a lack of education. Now add language problems, total literacy and not even haveing the slightest familiarity with modern technology.

At worst the US would face a mass infantry hoard with a small bit of simple artillery for support/

SyntaxVorlon · Post by **SyntaxVorlon** » 2002-12-29 12:53am

US gets to deploy its favorite toy, SW sats and uses particle beams to destroy the orc armies.
Or Saruman gets help from the Shadows who give him three of their balrogs.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2002-12-29 12:59am

Darth Wong wrote:I smell someone trying to rewrite the entire basis of the scenario. Who said anything about Sauron taking human form and trying to seize power in the US? That could be Bill Gates! We're talking about Sauron trying to conquer the world, and he's not going to do that as Mr. Scary because Americans have lots of instinctive reactions to Mr. Scary, most of which involve the word "ordnance".

Agreed, besides which:

1.) He's already attacked the US once. Only an idiot is going to construe him as having anything other than ill intentions - I doubt he'd get much chance to infiltrate other countries so easily.

2.) Even with the modern stuff, its obvious he's still at a disadvantage dealing with most countries. He's not the most powerful person on the block, and other people who are aren't going to allow him room to become so (I figured the only reason anyone WOULD sell him weapons is that they didnt fear him becoming a problem.) And he still doesnt have the "experience" advantage...

3.) How the hell is he supposed to control anyone? Isnt that the whole point of why he wants the Ring?

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2002-12-29 01:00am

SyntaxVorlon wrote:US gets to deploy its favorite toy, SW sats and uses particle beams to destroy the orc armies.
Or Saruman gets help from the Shadows who give him three of their balrogs.

What particle beams? As I recall, any sort of energy weapons satellites were still purely theoretical. Did we somehow develop our antimissile defenses in secret that I wasnt aware of?

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2002-12-29 01:02am

Morning Star wrote: Connor: Does Sauron get his trolls?

Yes, for what good it does him.

But he can't dominate anyone except maybe the smallest, most primitive cultures into submission. Anyone with modern firepower on the defensive is going to maul him, and even if not, the sort of conquest he might try to engage in would be costly, and in the end turn most countries against him (resulting in him getting his ass handed to him on a more permanant basis)

At best, he's on an equal footing with other nations, if that.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-12-29 01:04am

The way I read it, the US has 20 years and is wary of a coming threat. Having particle beam weapons in 20 years is not outside the realm of possibility.

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2002-12-29 01:10am

hmmmm Mushrooms sprout all over Mordor and I dont mean the garden variety either

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-12-29 01:11am

The US may not have partial beams by 2023, but it's going to have a fuckload of lasers both in the air and on the ground. In addition to THEL, which in the absence of artillery would be available mowing down Orcs, the USN's F-35 will also have a laser, and its expected that some FCS variants will have lasers.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-29 01:12am

Why bother asking if he has cave trolls? Trolls would not even survive Mogadishu, never mind the United States military. Even the most ass-backward insurgents and warlords in the most ass-backward nations on Earth still have rifles, large-calibre automatic weapons, and RPG's. An RPG in a troll would produce a red cloud of trollmeat.

SyntaxVorlon · Post by **SyntaxVorlon** » 2002-12-29 01:21am

Connor MacLeod wrote:What particle beams? As I recall, any sort of energy weapons satellites were still purely theoretical. Did we somehow develop our antimissile defenses in secret that I wasnt aware of?

Reagon's original Star Wars antimissle defenses were supposed to be some sort of energy weapon that would predetonate the reactive material or at least prereact the reactive material in the bombs. This was probably supposed to work from orbiting satellites. But if I'm incorrect please Dth. Wong correct me, though I'm sure you won't need any goading. Are you sure you're not just a robot program designed to shoot down any arguments people put forward?

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2002-12-29 01:23am

hmmm Sauron is also in a bind in that his pitiful navy is using oars and sails to get around

Morning Star · Post by **Morning Star** » 2002-12-29 01:27am

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Morning Star wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:I smell someone trying to rewrite the entire basis of the scenario. Who said anything about Sauron taking human form and trying to seize power in the US? That could be Bill Gates! We're talking about Sauron trying to conquer the world, and he's not going to do that as Mr. Scary because Americans have lots of instinctive reactions to Mr. Scary, most of which involve the word "ordnance".
There's a good one: Bill Gate's vs Sauron. i hate Gates, smug bastard.

I think US soldiers may be a little phased by the whole... army of fantasy monsters coming towards them...with tanks.

Connor: Does Sauron get his trolls?
But isn't the whole point that they can use them? If they can't then this entire thread is pointless.
Perhapes, for the ninety seconds it takes the opening artillery salvo's to impact. It would be near impossibul to get the Orcs to use anything more complex then an AK-47 and even thats iffy.

Nations on Earth, notably Iran and Pakistan, have major problems training soldiers for even basic infantry task because of a lack of education. Now add language problems, total literacy and not even haveing the slightest familiarity with modern technology.

At worst the US would face a mass infantry hoard with a small bit of simple artillery for support/