USA vs Mordor, with a twist

[Connor MacLeod]

The way I read it, the US has 20 years and is wary of a coming threat. Having particle beam weapons in 20 years is not outside the realm of possibility.

As I understand it, any kind of practical beam weapons technology requires some fairly strong advances in power development (something like fusion.) While its not impossible, I do question the option of having it.

Besides which, satellites armed with Kinetic kill warheads would probably be more practical (drop a rock from oh.. 36,000 km above earth.. gravity is a wonderful thing.)

[Connor MacLeod]

hmmmm Mushrooms sprout all over Mordor and I dont mean the garden variety either

Nuclear assault is forbidden unless Mordor strikes first....

[Connor MacLeod]

hmmm Sauron is also in a bind in that his pitiful navy is using oars and sails to get around

He's got modern warships too.. even if his crews aren't as familiar as the US's (remember that experience and familiarity with our technology will count for MUCH)

[Connor MacLeod]

What particle beams? As I recall, any sort of energy weapons satellites were still purely theoretical. Did we somehow develop our antimissile defenses in secret that I wasnt aware of?

Reagon's original Star Wars antimissle defenses were supposed to be some sort of energy weapon that would predetonate the reactive material or at least prereact the reactive material in the bombs. This was probably supposed to work from orbiting satellites. But if I'm incorrect please Dth. Wong correct me, though I'm sure you won't need any goading. Are you sure you're not just a robot program designed to shoot down any arguments people put forward?

Yes, SDI did include particle beam technology as part of its systems. but it was far more problematical in an atmosphere than lasers (charged particle beams less so I think) - the nature of the beam itself tends to make it rather incoherent... and there were small problems with power generation to create said beam (not to mention the problems with "drilling" said beam through the atmosphere)

[Connor MacLeod]

Those of you defneding Mordor seem to keep wanting to approach the problem in terms of raw military power or direct combat - as if the only way Sauron could win is through force of one sort or another (Dominating others by force of will or strenght of arms.)

Thats NOT going to guarantee him victory. Sauron has to think in other terms if he is going to have a chance, because as I said, while he has power and resources, he's NOT in any significant position here.

Another thing you have to think of is what the US might do to prevent him from getting the ring, even if we assume they can't destroy it.

[Sea Skimmer]

hmmm Sauron is also in a bind in that his pitiful navy is using oars and sails to get around

He's got modern warships too.. even if his crews aren't as familiar as the US's (remember that experience and familiarity with our technology will count for MUCH)

Mordor has little chance of development enough to afford more then corvettes and frigates. And crewing them would be impossible from there own ranks. Finding mercenaries that can crew a modern warship would be near impossible, and anyone smart enough to do it wouldn't go against the USN.

A dozen or so Littoral Combat Ship's and a pair of DD-X's would exterminate the forces within hours.

[Connor MacLeod]

hmmm Sauron is also in a bind in that his pitiful navy is using oars and sails to get around

He's got modern warships too.. even if his crews aren't as familiar as the US's (remember that experience and familiarity with our technology will count for MUCH)

Mordor has little chance of development enough to afford more then corvettes and frigates. And crewing them would be impossible from there own ranks. Finding mercenaries that can crew a modern warship would be near impossible, and anyone smart enough to do it wouldn't go against the USN.

A dozen or so Littoral Combat Ship's and a pair of DD-X's would exterminate the forces within hours.

Probably, but I ignored that for purposes of the *initial* military power he has access to ( I said it waas comparable to Russia remember). But thats also the point - even if he has teh hardware, that doesnt mean he's guaranteed victory.

Too many of these threads tend to emphasize Sauron dominating through his perceived "power" (because of what he is) rather than what might actually be.

[Darth Wong]

There's a difference between being a fan and a fan-whore. A fan likes a particular series. A fan-whore is bound and determined to prove that his series is better than everything else in every conceivable respect, even matters such as military prowess. That's why you get these asinine "the US could not destroy the ring even with their advanced technology" and "Sauron cannot be felled by technological means" arguments.

Sauron was bad-ass with legions of orcs at his disposal and weakly arrayed primitive forces against him. This means precisely jack shit against the US military.

[Morning Star]

Why bother asking if he has cave trolls? Trolls would not even survive Mogadishu, never mind the United States military. Even the most ass-backward insurgents and warlords in the most ass-backward nations on Earth still have rifles, large-calibre automatic weapons, and RPG's. An RPG in a troll would produce a red cloud of trollmeat.

But using them as shock troops would be incredible. Small arms fire wouldn't even scratch them and they could trow tanks through the air with one arm.

[Darth Wong]

Why bother asking if he has cave trolls? Trolls would not even survive Mogadishu, never mind the United States military. Even the most ass-backward insurgents and warlords in the most ass-backward nations on Earth still have rifles, large-calibre automatic weapons, and RPG's. An RPG in a troll would produce a red cloud of trollmeat.

But using them as shock troops would be incredible. Small arms fire wouldn't even scratch them and they could trow tanks through the air with one arm.

How is a cave troll going to get within 3 km of a tank? And why does the ability to lift a two ton boulder translate automatically to the ability to throw a 60 ton tank with one arm? And finally, what makes you think small-arms fire won't scratch them? They're still flesh and blood.

If swords still work, I don't see why a clip of 5.56mm AP won't. And if that doesn't work, the M203 grenade launcher will turn him into troll chunks.

No, trolls would be pathetic shock troops. They're big, they're slow, and they're flesh. They're exceptional targets, not shock troops.

[Morning Star]

Why bother asking if he has cave trolls? Trolls would not even survive Mogadishu, never mind the United States military. Even the most ass-backward insurgents and warlords in the most ass-backward nations on Earth still have rifles, large-calibre automatic weapons, and RPG's. An RPG in a troll would produce a red cloud of trollmeat.

But using them as shock troops would be incredible. Small arms fire wouldn't even scratch them and they could trow tanks through the air with one arm.

How is a cave troll going to get within 3 km of a tank? And why does the ability to lift a two ton boulder translate automatically to the ability to throw a 60 ton tank with one arm? And finally, what makes you think small-arms fire won't scratch them? They're still flesh and blood.

If swords still work, I don't see why a clip of 5.56mm AP won't. And if that doesn't work, the M203 grenade launcher will turn him into troll chunks.

No, trolls would be pathetic shock troops. They're big, they're slow, and they're flesh. They're exceptional targets, not shock troops.

If you're talking about the original trolls, then yes, you'd be right. But Olog-hai would smash them apart. Their sking was so thick that only Elvish baldes could penetrate it (because of the spells cast upon them). They ran faster than horses and their strength was powerful enough to of been able to break the Morannon. They were as smart as men, evil to the bone and the greatest servents of Sauron. If you've seen TTT... those trolls opening the gates pale in comparison to the size of them. But how well they'd do against armored divisions would be quite intersting.

Plus Saruman used magics to stop people lokking upon his forces. Like the shadow of Sauron except blacker. We don't know if radar would be able to penetrate the cloud, human eyes certainly couldn't.

[Darth Wong]

If you're talking about the original trolls, then yes, you'd be right. But Olog-hai would smash them apart. Their sking was so thick that only Elvish baldes could penetrate it (because of the spells cast upon them).

Big deal. No elven smith had access to modern technology, which might as well be magic in relation to Middle Earth. No elven smith made a blade which could punch through a foot of steel, which a typical man-portable anti-tank weapon can do easily.

They ran faster than horses

And much, much slower than a tank.

and their strength was powerful enough to of been able to break the Morannon.

Which means ...?

They were as smart as men, evil to the bone and the greatest servents of Sauron. If you've seen TTT... those trolls opening the gates pale in comparison to the size of them. But how well they'd do against armored divisions would be quite intersting.

No, it would be short and bloody. They are nice big targets which would be blown to shit by 120mm shells at a range of several kilometres. No weapon anywhere on Middle Earth is remotely comparable to any modern artillery or field gun.

Plus Saruman used magics to stop people lokking upon his forces. Like the shadow of Sauron except blacker. We don't know if radar would be able to penetrate the cloud, human eyes certainly couldn't.

Simple darkness works against people. It does not work against light-amplification, thermal imaging, or radar.

[Sea Skimmer]

Why bother asking if he has cave trolls? Trolls would not even survive Mogadishu, never mind the United States military. Even the most ass-backward insurgents and warlords in the most ass-backward nations on Earth still have rifles, large-calibre automatic weapons, and RPG's. An RPG in a troll would produce a red cloud of trollmeat.

But using them as shock troops would be incredible. Small arms fire wouldn't even scratch them and they could trow tanks through the air with one arm.

Arrows killed cave trolls. 5.56 rifle fire would drop them in any volume and any 7.62 weapon would take one down in a burst. When have cave trolls show the ability to pick up and throw 50-70 ton weights?

[Connor MacLeod]

There's a difference between being a fan and a fan-whore. A fan likes a particular series. A fan-whore is bound and determined to prove that his series is better than everything else in every conceivable respect, even matters such as military prowess. That's why you get these asinine "the US could not destroy the ring even with their advanced technology" and "Sauron cannot be felled by technological means" arguments.

Sauron was bad-ass with legions of orcs at his disposal and weakly arrayed primitive forces against him. This means precisely jack shit against the US military.

I dont even really care if they can or cannot "kill" Sauron or whatever.
Anyting teh US could do would sure make his life a living hell

(Visualizes carpet bombing of Mordor on a monthly basis)

I'm largely trying to point out that 90% of these debates involving Middle Earth seem to involve some weird "Deus Ex Machina" belief that being a divine or supernatural being, a magical entity, or a pseudo-god somehow automatically guarantees victory.

Fivers seem to have much similar a belief in regards to the First Ones (IE Adarx and his precious "Triad")

[Connor MacLeod]

Why bother asking if he has cave trolls? Trolls would not even survive Mogadishu, never mind the United States military. Even the most ass-backward insurgents and warlords in the most ass-backward nations on Earth still have rifles, large-calibre automatic weapons, and RPG's. An RPG in a troll would produce a red cloud of trollmeat.

But using them as shock troops would be incredible. Small arms fire wouldn't even scratch them and they could trow tanks through the air with one arm.

How is a cave troll going to get within 3 km of a tank? And why does the ability to lift a two ton boulder translate automatically to the ability to throw a 60 ton tank with one arm? And finally, what makes you think small-arms fire won't scratch them? They're still flesh and blood.

If swords still work, I don't see why a clip of 5.56mm AP won't. And if that doesn't work, the M203 grenade launcher will turn him into troll chunks.

No, trolls would be pathetic shock troops. They're big, they're slow, and they're flesh. They're exceptional targets, not shock troops.

Trolls would be better used as slave labor, if anything.

[Darth Wong]

I sense that you (Morningstar) have this somewhat childish belief that magic must be greater than technology. Try to understand: modern technology is magic in comparison to Middle Earth. The things we can do with modern technology exceed the things they could do with their magic.

This simplistic magic>technology relationship underlies most LOTR fan-whore arguments, and it simply doesn't wash. Until I see Sauron deploying a 1-megaton spell or elves unleashing enchantments that can destroy fortresses from 400 miles away, I don't see magic being comparable to modern weapons.

[Connor MacLeod]

I'm going to make a small prediction. Now that the Trolls have failed, we're going to hear about Saruman, the Balrogs, and probably Smaug (all of whom I included) and we will see each of these shot down promptly for one reason ro another. Thereby proving my point - ME fans are constantly thinking in terms of winning through force, when even by the situation I set, Sauron is by no means guarnateed a position of dominance or power.

Its *possible* that if he's patient, bides his time, and works slowly through persuasion he MIGHT have a chance, but this isnt something he can rely on massed orc charges to win, even IF we give them modern arms and equipment.

[Sea Skimmer]

I sense that you (Morningstar) have this somewhat childish belief that magic must be greater than technology. Try to understand: modern technology is magic in comparison to Middle Earth. The things we can do with modern technology exceed the things they could do with their magic.

This simplistic magic>technology relationship underlies most LOTR fan-whore arguments, and it simply doesn't wash. Until I see Sauron deploying a 1-megaton spell or elves unleashing enchantments that can destroy fortresses from 400 miles away, I don't see magic being comparable to modern weapons.

What's really amusing is how often so called magic is just how something was made. Its just material sciences in many cases.

[Sea Skimmer]

I'm going to make a small prediction. Now that the Trolls have failed, we're going to hear about Saruman, the Balrogs, and probably Smaug (all of whom I included) and we will see each of these shot down promptly for one reason ro another. Thereby proving my point - ME fans are constantly thinking in terms of winning through force, when even by the situation I set, Sauron is by no means guarnateed a position of dominance or power.

Its *possible* that if he's patient, bides his time, and works slowly through persuasion he MIGHT have a chance, but this isnt something he can rely on massed orc charges to win, even IF we give them modern arms and equipment.

Smaug, it would be most amusing to see someone argue for him being the source of victory.

"Now just because one arrow killed him doesn't mean the 3 kilogram shaped charge from the Starstreak missile hitting the same spot will do it"

[Connor MacLeod]

I sense that you (Morningstar) have this somewhat childish belief that magic must be greater than technology. Try to understand: modern technology is magic in comparison to Middle Earth. The things we can do with modern technology exceed the things they could do with their magic.

Sort of like Trekkies "technobabble solution to any problem."

Thats also one of my points in this debate. If Sauron is going to have ANY chance, he would have to do things through other methods than the ones the LOTR fans mention. No amount of supernatural trickery is going to overcome the modernized firepower advantage the US has.

I'm surprised they havent thought in terms of Numenor... (although its not an exact comparison, since The US is by no means equivalent to a tyrannical Monarchy, nor is the Numenorian arrogance there...) but the poitn is Sauron can't FIGHT them directly, at least not right away.

This simplistic magic>technology relationship underlies most LOTR fan-whore arguments, and it simply doesn't wash. Until I see Sauron deploying a 1-megaton spell or elves unleashing enchantments that can destroy fortresses from 400 miles away, I don't see magic being comparable to modern weapons.

As I said, Fivers have much of this same belief when it comes to the First Ones.

[Morning Star]

Simple darkness works against people. It does not work against light-amplification, thermal imaging, or radar.

Not just darkness, magic that stops your gaze from penetrating it.

Arrows killed cave trolls. 5.56 rifle fire would drop them in any volume and any 7.62 weapon would take one down in a burst. When have cave trolls show the ability to pick up and throw 50-70 ton weights?

Yes, cave trolls. Not what I'm talking about. Though they still wouldn't have much of a chance against modern tech.

I sense that you (Morningstar) have this somewhat childish belief that magic must be greater than technology. Try to understand: modern technology is magic in comparison to Middle Earth. The things we can do with modern technology exceed the things they could do with their magic.

This simplistic magic>technology relationship underlies most LOTR fan-whore arguments, and it simply doesn't wash. Until I see Sauron deploying a 1-megaton spell or elves unleashing enchantments that can destroy fortresses from 400 miles away, I don't see magic being comparable to modern weapons.

Fan-whore? No need to insult anyone.

No, magic cannot do that... but maybe the modern technology that Sauron does have at his command could. Oh, and before I hear anymore of the orcs couldn't operate them arguments...then i'll say this:

1) If they can't use it, what was the point of giving it to them? if they cant then this degenerates into Middle-earth tech vs 21st Century tech, which is just...stupid.

2) Couldn't the men he has at his command use it.

[Connor MacLeod]

I'm going to make a small prediction. Now that the Trolls have failed, we're going to hear about Saruman, the Balrogs, and probably Smaug (all of whom I included) and we will see each of these shot down promptly for one reason ro another. Thereby proving my point - ME fans are constantly thinking in terms of winning through force, when even by the situation I set, Sauron is by no means guarnateed a position of dominance or power.

Its *possible* that if he's patient, bides his time, and works slowly through persuasion he MIGHT have a chance, but this isnt something he can rely on massed orc charges to win, even IF we give them modern arms and equipment.

Smaug, it would be most amusing to see someone argue for him being the source of victory.

"Now just because one arrow killed him doesn't mean the 3 kilogram shaped charge from the Starstreak missile hitting the same spot will do it"

I'm rather disappointed. My thoughts about Sauron handling these things have focused around him not only realizing he's STILL nowhere near capable of handling the US directly, but looking for other means to augment his abilities (which is going to be a slow, gradual process, especially since its unlikely the US would be UNAWARE of his actions, nor sit idly by and let him do it) and to weaken the US through others. As I said, its not the first time Sauron has been in a position where a superior (and human) force handed him his ass, and he still managed to best him.

I'm not saying its a guaranteed victory for Sauron either.

[Sea Skimmer]

Fan-whore? No need to insult anyone.

No, magic cannot do that... but maybe the modern technology that Sauron does have at his command could. Oh, and before I hear anymore of the orcs couldn't operate them arguments...then i'll say this:

1) If they can't use it, what was the point of giving it to them? if they cant then this degenerates into Middle-earth tech vs 21st Century tech, which is just...stupid.

2) Couldn't the men he has at his command use it.

The senario assumed a period in which they could learn, 20 years is not nearly enough to devolope and educate the personal needed. They could master rifles and perhapes towed artillery but thats it.

Men under his command have all the same language and education problumes.

[Morning Star]

In fact this entire argument is a bit pointless, mordor tech won't even scratch modern developments and from people's opinion's, it seems like apparantly Mordor can't actually use the modern tech properly anyway, and even if they could it's not superior to the US Army anyway. Kinda one-sided.

[Sea Skimmer]

I'm going to make a small prediction. Now that the Trolls have failed, we're going to hear about Saruman, the Balrogs, and probably Smaug (all of whom I included) and we will see each of these shot down promptly for one reason ro another. Thereby proving my point - ME fans are constantly thinking in terms of winning through force, when even by the situation I set, Sauron is by no means guarnateed a position of dominance or power.

Its *possible* that if he's patient, bides his time, and works slowly through persuasion he MIGHT have a chance, but this isnt something he can rely on massed orc charges to win, even IF we give them modern arms and equipment.

Smaug, it would be most amusing to see someone argue for him being the source of victory.

"Now just because one arrow killed him doesn't mean the 3 kilogram shaped charge from the Starstreak missile hitting the same spot will do it"

I'm rather disappointed. My thoughts about Sauron handling these things have focused around him not only realizing he's STILL nowhere near capable of handling the US directly, but looking for other means to augment his abilities (which is going to be a slow, gradual process, especially since its unlikely the US would be UNAWARE of his actions, nor sit idly by and let him do it) and to weaken the US through others. As I said, its not the first time Sauron has been in a position where a superior (and human) force handed him his ass, and he still managed to best him.

I'm not saying its a guaranteed victory for Sauron either.

You key lines contradict each other and I have no idea which side your on or what your point it.