Season greetings and PC

[PainRack]

Season greetings was orginally coined so as to preserve the inclusiveness of Christmas. Christians aren't the only ones who celebrate this holiday, and other holidays also fall within a similar time period as Christmas.


However, in our eagerness to be inclusive by ignoring the "christ" in christmas, have we gone overboard and excluded christians from the holidays?

What do you guys think? Have Season Greetings jumped the shark, now becoming another form of speech intolerant to christians celebrating christmas?

[Eris]

Absolutely not. While I'm not very familiar with the etymology and history of the term, the season's greetings and happy holidays language seems to me to be perfectly justified. Christmas is of course a big one, but the time period is stuck full of religious or otherwise significant celebrations, some of them important to Christians no less. The Winter Solstice, Hanukkah, and New Years to name just a few. I shouldn't see why we should not recognise that more than just the Christians have things to celebrate in winter.

[Stark]

Season greetings was orginally coined so as to preserve the inclusiveness of Christmas. Christians aren't the only ones who celebrate this holiday, and other holidays also fall within a similar time period as Christmas.


However, in our eagerness to be inclusive by ignoring the "christ" in christmas, have we gone overboard and excluded christians from the holidays?

What do you guys think? Have Season Greetings jumped the shark, now becoming another form of speech intolerant to christians celebrating christmas?

What are you even fucking talking about.

How is 'seasons greetings' offensive to christians? How is it intolerant of them? OH WAIT IT ISN'T.

[Surlethe]

What do you guys think? Have Season Greetings jumped the shark, now becoming another form of speech intolerant to christians celebrating christmas?

You're being sarcastic, right? How on Earth could it be intolerant to Christians celebrating Christmas?

[darthbob88]

What do you guys think? Have Season Greetings jumped the shark, now becoming another form of speech intolerant to christians celebrating christmas?

You're being sarcastic, right? How on Earth could it be intolerant to Christians celebrating Christmas?

The best I can think of is the usual left-wing argument against religion: saying "Merry Christmas" promotes a white, Christian view of the world (as if "Do unto others" is a bad thing), and it is intolerant to people of other religions and ethnicities, if not sexualities; if you say "Season's Greetings", you envelop every religion, sexuality, and ethnicity, a much better thing.

[SCRawl]

What do you guys think? Have Season Greetings jumped the shark, now becoming another form of speech intolerant to christians celebrating christmas?

You're being sarcastic, right? How on Earth could it be intolerant to Christians celebrating Christmas?

It's the whole "War on Christmas" schtick that O'Reilly and his fluffers started last year. They figure that America is a Christian nation, and you can either get with the program and say "Merry Christmas" or you're positively un-American. At least, I think that's what his position is; I mostly hear a weird buzzing sound when someone from the Christian Right tries to make a point.

[Stark]

It's fucking retarded. 'Seasons Greetings' is appropriate to anyone, regardless of beliefs, whereas the whole Christmas schtick is 100% for Christians and that's all. This 'oh noes poor christians being persecuted because they can't jam their religion in our faces' bullshit is fucking RETARDED. TWICE.

[Gunface]

Yeah, Stark, I can't stand that. I have the absolute misfortune of going to a Catholic school (at least, until next year), and we have a ridiculously fundamentalist principal this year. Her big thing for the year is "be proud of believing in Jesus!". It's so absolutely bothersome, it's like she thinks Christians are still in the first century, when they have to hide their religion away because they're being persecuted.
Seriously, they've got a stranglehold on the country.. It's like they seriously believe that people are always trying to discriminate against them. I find it constantly amazing. She keeps saying that we'll get "discriminated against for our faith", even though.. She can't possibly actually believe that.
But yeah, tying that in with season's greetings: Every little thing that does not specifically reference Christianity is NOT discriminating against it. Saying "season's greetings" doesn't undermine Christianity. Honestly, it has to be a bit harder being an atheist and having to put up with the constant barrage of religion than it is to be a Christian and being a constant source of religion.

[PeZook]

I personally think it just sounds dumb. What's wrong with "Happy Holidays"? Or are Americans so sensitive that this will somehow be offensive to someone somewhere? "Happy holidays" shows that this time is somehow special, as in - a holiday, not just another season. You could say "Season's Greetings" in the summer and it would be exactly as meaningless. What season? Greetings on what occasion? It's just artificial.

I think I find it particularly mind-boggling that someone might get offended by someone else saying "Merry Christmas" just because they don't celebrate the exact same holiday. Or the guy who says the greeting getting offended by the other person not celebrating Christmas, of course.

On the other point raised - I don't think that not saying "Christmas" excludes Christians from the holiday. It's not like you forbid them to celebrate the holiday and be merry and nice to people because of it. By this logic, a Jew should be offended because most people don't say "Happy Hannukah", so the Jews should feel excluded from their own holidays. Please. If anything, "Happy holidays" or "Season's greetings" or whatever is more inclusive than just "Merry Christmas"

[His Divine Shadow]

To put a spin on it. Is it intolerant to wish someone a merry christmas?

[PeZook]

To put a spin on it. Is it intolerant to wish someone a merry christmas?

To be honest, I personally don't give a flying fuck and assume that the person wishing me a merry christmas does in fact want to wish me well, instead of attempting to convert me to christianity or baptism or whatever. But I'm not everyone (and to make it worse, I'm Polish, and attitudes are different in America).

[salm]

I think the whole "debate" about what you should wish whom at wich point in time is caused by a bunch of unemployed loners who have too much time on their hands and are out of real problems to discuss. That´s why they are discussing this type of non problems.
I actually allways thought that discussing non problems was a typical German trait but the internet showed me that it´s not.

[Elfdart]

To put a spin on it. Is it intolerant to wish someone a merry christmas?

No, but it's easier to use the generic one so you don't end up with:

"Merry Christmas."

"I'm Jewish."

"Well Happy Hannukah, then."

It's a minor faux pas, like when someone assumes a couple are married when they're just dating, friends, shacked up, fuckbuddies etc. It's just that some people respond to such minor gaffes in a hostile way and since there are some people who want to be polite or avoid offending, they stick to the generic greeting whether it's "Happy Holidays" or calling someone a "Significant Other". I never thought it was a big deal until this "War on Christmas" bullshit started, along with the not-so-subtle Jew-baiting that went with it.

[Stark]

Remember, it's mildly embarrassing or annoying if you get it wrong, but defaulting to non-specific terms is SOMEHOW oppressing christians.

Whatever.

[Darth Wong]

How can anyone take that "War on Christmas" bullshit seriously unless he's a flaming idiot? People have used generic holiday greetings for decades, because you can't assume everyone is a Christian. It's no more "politically correct" than using "Ms" instead of "Miss" or "Mrs" when you're not sure if a woman is single or married.

[SCRawl]

How can anyone take that "War on Christmas" bullshit seriously unless he's a flaming idiot?

I think you've answered your own question.

[PainRack]

You misunderstood.

What I meant was, has the defence of "Season Greetings" and "Happy Holidays" crossed over into the realm of political correctness, to the extent that its EXCLUDES christians.

I never argued that there was a war on christmas or shit like that.

I just starting to feel that this whole greetings nonsense is getting way too politicised by both the right and left, with the right claiming a non-existent persecution, and the left responding by digging in so hard that it may have gone overboard. There should be nothing wrong with stores and ppl saying merry christmas, yet, it seems to appear that its no longer politically correct to do so.


Of course, I'm safe and far away from this nonsense in the States, so, it doesn't affect me one bit.

And to SCRawl..............
I'm not a Christian Right. I'm not even christian. I'm a full blown atheist who doesn't like PC language.

[Darth Wong]

You misunderstood.

What I meant was, has the defence of "Season Greetings" and "Happy Holidays" crossed over into the realm of political correctness, to the extent that its EXCLUDES christians.

I never argued that there was a war on christmas or shit like that.

That it is PRECISELY O'Reilly's argument for the "War on Christmas", fucktard. How the FUCK does the word "holidays" exclude Christmas, moron?

And to SCRawl..............
I'm not a Christian Right. I'm not even christian. I'm a full blown atheist who doesn't like PC language.

No, you're somebody who's bought into the idiotic notion that anything which is called "PC" must be wrong.

[SCRawl]

And to SCRawl..............
I'm not a Christian Right. I'm not even christian. I'm a full blown atheist who doesn't like PC language.

Oh, I was referring to O'Reilly (not that he's a Religious Right guy, but he seems to sympathize with them) and the people who believe in the "War on Christmas" stuff. I never intended to imply that that was your position.

[PainRack]

That it is PRECISELY O'Reilly's argument for the "War on Christmas", fucktard. How the FUCK does the word "holidays" exclude Christmas, moron?

So, you answered my question, by stating that you don't feel that it has crossed the boundary. Thank you.

No, you're somebody who's bought into the idiotic notion that anything which is called "PC" must be wrong.

Oh bullshit. PC may had its noble intentions in the begining, but the rigid application and sheer inflexibility of its stance has simply gone too far into the absurd.

PC intention was to change our mindset. We were supposed to realise the bias and sheer insensitivity implied in our language. Prejudice and discrimination was the enemy. However, it has now morped into a rigid, fundamentalist ideology where only certain phrases are "acceptable". To not use accepted phrases is a sign of you being an "enemy". When awareness has become nothing more than just another rigid set of formulae, damn right its wrong.

[Darth Wong]

That it is PRECISELY O'Reilly's argument for the "War on Christmas", fucktard. How the FUCK does the word "holidays" exclude Christmas, moron?

So, you answered my question, by stating that you don't feel that it has crossed the boundary. Thank you.

Your question was idiotic in the first place. You made no attempt whatsoever to show how it had crossed this "boundary", and you are still trying to pretend this is a matter of personal feelings rather than logic. HOW is a more inclusive term somehow exclusive? Explain this, moron.

No, you're somebody who's bought into the idiotic notion that anything which is called "PC" must be wrong.

Oh bullshit. PC may had its noble intentions in the begining, but the rigid application and sheer inflexibility of its stance has simply gone too far into the absurd.

You're an idiot. You don't decide whether something is a good idea or not based on naming categories and then declaring that an entire category of speech is wrong. You take it case by case, which requires judgment and logic which you obviously don't have.

PC intention was to change our mindset. We were supposed to realise the bias and sheer insensitivity implied in our language. Prejudice and discrimination was the enemy. However, it has now morped into a rigid, fundamentalist ideology where only certain phrases are "acceptable". To not use accepted phrases is a sign of you being an "enemy". When awareness has become nothing more than just another rigid set of formulae, damn right its wrong.

Wow, did you copy that directly from Bill O'Reilly, or did he recite it to you while you were tonguing his rectum?

[Darth Wong]

Let me explain how your logic (and the logic of all the knee-jerk anti-PC crowd works);

Step 1: Declare that a particular expression is PC.
Step 2: Assume that anything which is PC must automatically be bad.
Step 3: Declare that the expression must be bad.

Notice step 2: in order to make this logic work, you must assume that 100% of "PC" phrases are bad. That's an idiotic assumption, particularly since there is not even a real definition of what "PC" is.

[Mange]

To put a spin on it. Is it intolerant to wish someone a merry christmas?

I wonder that as well. Sure, it can be awkward if you say "Merry Christmas" to a Jewish or Muslim person, but as an atheist I wouldn't mind. In fact, I'm not sure if I would like it otherwise...

[Darth Wong]

I actually say "Merry Christmas" all the time during the holiday season, and I'm an atheist. Christmas around here is more about Santa Claus and shopping malls than Jesus Christ and religious devotion anyway (a fact that Christofascist bullshitters bemoan almost as frequently as they bemoan the "War on Christmas").

I don't think "Merry Christmas" is intolerant, but I do think that attacking the more inclusive phrase "Happy Holidays" is definitely intolerant.

"Merry Christmas" is only guilty of presumption, not intolerance. Certainly, when you're making signs with the intent of greeting people of all faiths, it makes a hell of a lot less sense than "Happy Holidays".

[Darth Wong]

I think we need to declare that Bill O'Reilly is conducting a "War on Hanukkhah" and accuse him of being an anti-Semite. It would be no more unreasonable than what's he doing.