USA vs Mordor, with a twist

[Darth Wong]

Simple darkness works against people. It does not work against light-amplification, thermal imaging, or radar.

Not just darkness, magic that stops your gaze from penetrating it.

Justify your assumption that it blocks the entire electromagnetic spectrum, not just visible light. Explain how the thermodynamic problem of heat buildup is dealt with.

Fan-whore? No need to insult anyone.

That's the term we use around here for people who knee-jerk defend their pet universes against any military threat, no matter how manifestly superior it may be. Get used to it.

No, magic cannot do that... but maybe the modern technology that Sauron does have at his command could. Oh, and before I hear anymore of the orcs couldn't operate them arguments...then i'll say this:

1) If they can't use it, what was the point of giving it to them?

Irrelevant red-herring. You can't prove they can use modern technology by asking what the thread starter's personal motivations might have been. They're orcs. Deal with it.

if they cant then this degenerates into Middle-earth tech vs 21st Century tech, which is just...stupid.

Yes, it is. So why are you arguing for it? Your prior argument about trolls vs armoured divisions was good for entertainment value, but not much else.

2) Couldn't the men he has at his command use it.

The Iranian air force couldn't fly any of their American planes shortly after losing American support. It takes more than a generic human being to operate and maintain military equipment at all, never mind with the high level of proficiency required. It takes training, support logistics, etc.

[Connor MacLeod]

Not just darkness, magic that stops your gaze from penetrating it.

Whereupon we see the repetition of "magikbabble" solutions Mike has been pointing out you are relying on.

How exactly is this magical darkness preventing a gaze from penetrating it? And even if it blinds people, how does it blind other forms of detection? (heat sensors, motion sensors, auditory or olfactory sensors that might NOT rely on any sort of optical or visual scanning)...

Not to mention, how do you cover the passage of thousands of troops? Does this fog cover tehir footprints?

Yes, cave trolls. Not what I'm talking about. Though they still wouldn't have much of a chance against modern tech.

I still dont think you answered Sea Skimmer's question.

Fan-whore? No need to insult anyone.

He's got a reason to. Don't start commiting "style over substance" fallacies when you've been ignoring the same point he's been trying to hammer into your skull since you and he started.

No, magic cannot do that... but maybe the modern technology that Sauron does have at his command could. Oh, and before I hear anymore of the orcs couldn't operate them arguments...then i'll say this:

And how does a "maybe" guarantee anything? I spelled out most of the technology he has.. the most destructive is generaly a few low-kt nukes.

1) If they can't use it, what was the point of giving it to them? if they cant then this degenerates into Middle-earth tech vs 21st Century tech, which is just...stupid.

They can use it, but that doesnt mean they can use it well. There's something to be said about awe and shock over seeing something with the capabilities of an assault rifle, especially if you have no exact equivalent, and its completely new to you. You have heard me mentioning "familiarity" havent you? I only gave them the technology and the gear, not the experience or familiarty with it the US (and other countries) would have.

2) Couldn't the men he has at his command use it.

Not his allies from ME - they suffer from the same "lack of familiarity" the rest (orcs, trolls, etc.) woudl have. He has hired some mercs to both help train his troops in their use and to supplement his own forces, but those numbers would pale compared ot what the US could throw at them. And again, training is no replacement for experience and familiarity.

[Morning Star]

The only way mordor stands a chance is if Sauron could attack them from within, but when someone suggested this, Darth Wong and Connor McLeod shot it down as saying it changes the point of the debate... which isn't really a debate.

The senario assumed a period in which they could learn, 20 years is not nearly enough to devolope and educate the personal needed. They could master rifles and perhapes towed artillery but thats it.

Men under his command have all the same language and education problumes.

Exactly, which means this is so one sided its ridiculous.

[Darth Wong]

Well good, then you have essentially conceded that your earlier arguments about trolls being the equivalent of armoured vehicles were totally wrong.

[Connor MacLeod]

The only way mordor stands a chance is if Sauron could attack them from within, but when someone suggested this, Darth Wong and Connor McLeod shot it down as saying it changes the point of the debate... which isn't really a debate.

As I recall, the person who stated this phrased it in such a fashion that Sauron would instantaly and automatically "dominate" other countries into submission, not convert them through diplomacy, persuasion, or manipulation.

Exactly, which means this is so one sided its ridiculous.

I never exactly specified HOW Sauron would go about doing so. I only said he and the US engaged in some twenty years of preparation before the actual game begun. There's no reason to assume that after that twenty year mark is up he suddenly unleashes his hordes on a second massive assault of the US, especially if he's aware that he would get his ass kicked again. And there's also no limitation I recall putting in that meant that his "progression" would stop. But at that same point, there's no reason to assume that he can avoid tippin off the US to his actions either. (spy satellites, for one thing)

[Morning Star]

I started to read Wong's and Connor's posts and then just gave up... so seem to be under the impression that I belive Mordor will smash the US. There is no chance that could happen by the very definition of this debate. The only time I ever said who I supported was at the very beginning when I wrote:

I did try to read through but my head started to hurt, so I'll just go with my Tolkien fanasticism and say Sauron.

And as you can see, I didn't even read the set up at that time.

Well good, then you have essentially conceded that your earlier arguments about trolls being the equivalent of armoured vehicles were totally wrong.

Um, I never said that. I said it'd be interesting to watch an army of Olog-hai fight tanks. Not that they'd win. Not that Mordor would win. Just that it'd be interesting to see it. And there's no need to be so aggressive. Sheesh.

[Morning Star]

The only way mordor stands a chance is if Sauron could attack them from within, but when someone suggested this, Darth Wong and Connor McLeod shot it down as saying it changes the point of the debate... which isn't really a debate.

As I recall, the person who stated this phrased it in such a fashion that Sauron would instantaly and automatically "dominate" other countries into submission, not convert them through diplomacy, persuasion, or manipulation.

Exactly, which means this is so one sided its ridiculous.

I never exactly specified HOW Sauron would go about doing so. I only said he and the US engaged in some twenty years of preparation before the actual game begun. There's no reason to assume that after that twenty year mark is up he suddenly unleashes his hordes on a second massive assault of the US, especially if he's aware that he would get his ass kicked again. And there's also no limitation I recall putting in that meant that his "progression" would stop. But at that same point, there's no reason to assume that he can avoid tippin off the US to his actions either. (spy satellites, for one thing)

So Sauron could just fuck off out of mordor like what he did to Numenor and try to subvert it from the inside?

[Connor MacLeod]

So let me ask this - was there any part of the scenario that I set up where I said the ONLY way Mordor could win is through sheer numbers or force alone?

[Sea Skimmer]

The Iranian air force couldn't fly any of their American planes shortly after losing American support. It takes more than a generic human being to operate and maintain military equipment at all, never mind with the high level of proficiency required. It takes training, support logistics, etc.

Which Iran had, they still have American aircraft flying today in some numbers. However they had the benefit of a huge black market for parts, trained maintenance personal and a domestic aerospace industry that has grown to the point they can and are designing there own third generation fighter.

Mordor can't even get the manuals to its equipment in the right language. That was a big problem during the Vietnam War and resulted in the South being hopelessly dependant on America personal. It took too long to teach ARVN troops English and translations didn't work since everything in the aircraft was in English.

The result of this was that while Veitnam had the fourth largest airforce in 1975, less then 1/4 of it could fly.

[Morning Star]

1.) increased his numbers of orcs in his armies by 150% - this includes the ones under Saruman's command and the ones in Moria. In addition, he "attempts" to train them as best as he can (or they can) into modern combat tactics and weaponry. How well he does is part of the debate.

2.) His human allies are likewise trained and oufitted with modern arms, and they form the primary "force" he uses to handle artillery, tanks, planes, etc. If neccessary, Sauron has recruited large continegents of Mercenary forces to supplement his own forces, buy/conscript/enslave troops from third world countries, and so on.

I just re-read the rules and be this it seems that the orcs are basically out of the picture from the beginning, maybe they could be used as cannon fodder or something.

But it does say that men are trained in modern tech. So a fair fight may actually be on the horizon. But, how many are there and what is the standard of their weapons?

[Connor MacLeod]

So Sauron could just fuck off out of mordor like what he did to Numenor and try to subvert it from the inside?

TEchnically yes, although put emphasis on the word "try" - the first time this came up, it was taken for granted that Sauron would dominate the US with little or no trouble, and that the US would have no means of countering it (not to mention anyone who is allied with them.) Hence why I said "domination" was assumed before. Remember that the US is NOT Numenor, and I dont think sauron HAS any experience with how actual democracies run.

And I think there was mention of Sauron taking human form, which as I recall was destroyed in the fall of Numenor itself.

[Morning Star]

And how does a "maybe" guarantee anything? I spelled out most of the technology he has.. the most destructive is generaly a few low-kt nukes

.

So by this reasoning Sauron is inferior in every department? How wonderfully fair. Sauron has no chance. Maybe he could just use his army as a diversion so he can piss off into the white house and try to do some damage there, but that's about it.

[Morning Star]

And I think there was mention of Sauron taking human form, which as I recall was destroyed in the fall of Numenor itself.

Yeah it was... so how exactly does Sauron have a chance in hell of subverting the US government when he looks worse than death warmed up?

[Darth Wong]

Well good, then you have essentially conceded that your earlier arguments about trolls being the equivalent of armoured vehicles were totally wrong.

Um, I never said that. I said it'd be interesting to watch an army of Olog-hai fight tanks. Not that they'd win.

Before that, you said: "But using them as shock troops would be incredible. Small arms fire wouldn't even scratch them and they could trow tanks through the air with one arm."

I know it's psychologically easier to backpedal than concede, but you did claim that the trolls would pose a problem, and you never admitted you were wrong.

Not that Mordor would win. Just that it'd be interesting to see it. And there's no need to be so aggressive. Sheesh.

Wouldn't have happened if you'd just fessed up to your mistake at the beginning instead of trying to defend it with magic-babble and then pretending you never said it in the first place.

[Connor MacLeod]

I just re-read the rules and be this it seems that the orcs are basically out of the picture from the beginning, maybe they could be used as cannon fodder or something.

OR used in other fashions, or loaned out as mercenaries for muscle work, or perhaps to "hold" taken territory. I suppose there are alot of possiblities, and they may not be out of the picture.

But it does say that men are trained in modern tech. So a fair fight may actually be on the horizon. But, how many are there and what is the standard of their weapons?

Not really. A human soldier of Mordor (Easterling, Southron) carrying a rifle is not going to be the same thing as a US soldier carrying the same. Background and experience and familiarty do count for things.

Their weapons and equipment (and vehicles) were stated to be roughly on par with Russian gear (and in terms of quantity.. although they dont have as many *human* troops as russia.) Sauron has at his command all of his allies from the LotR series (at the time the ring was being sent to be destroyed, more or less) as well as Isengard and Moria. He has the potential of acquiring more through other means, but that doesnt mean he HAS it, or that the US will allow him to have it. I Also didnt give them a complete infrastructure to maintain it (a partial one, at berst) - and alot of their "modern" capabilities rely on the mercenary instructors and troops hired.

[Darth Wong]

And I think there was mention of Sauron taking human form, which as I recall was destroyed in the fall of Numenor itself.

Yeah it was... so how exactly does Sauron have a chance in hell of subverting the US government when he looks worse than death warmed up?

There is no chance. It's an extremely one-sided situation. I think Connor was just curious to see if anybody would actually try to defend LOTR anyway.

[Connor MacLeod]

And I think there was mention of Sauron taking human form, which as I recall was destroyed in the fall of Numenor itself.

Yeah it was... so how exactly does Sauron have a chance in hell of subverting the US government when he looks worse than death warmed up?

So Sauron doesnt have minions to do work for him?

[Connor MacLeod]

And I think there was mention of Sauron taking human form, which as I recall was destroyed in the fall of Numenor itself.

Yeah it was... so how exactly does Sauron have a chance in hell of subverting the US government when he looks worse than death warmed up?

There is no chance. It's an extremely one-sided situation. I think Connor was just curious to see if anybody would actually try to defend LOTR anyway.

Actually I was curious to think if anyone might think in more than just "Sauiron doing it all himself because he's some superhuman mini god" or soemthing like how it usually does.

I still believe he might HAVE a chance, even a faint one, ibut I also think the US has more than enough capability (and reason) to at the very least curtail any effort he makes at gaining power or influence, at least in any substantial degrees.

[Darth Wong]

Sauron has the same chance of subverting Earth as Saddam Hussein does: zero. He is a known quantity in this scenario (everyone on Earth knows who he is, where he is, and that they don't like him), and he is monstrously outpowered by his foes. It's hard to subvert someone when you already overtly tried to conquer him; he won't exactly be letting his guard down.

And yes, he might have minions, but so does Saddam. I still don't see him becoming world dictator.

[Connor MacLeod]

And how does a "maybe" guarantee anything? I spelled out most of the technology he has.. the most destructive is generaly a few low-kt nukes

.

So by this reasoning Sauron is inferior in every department? How wonderfully fair. Sauron has no chance. Maybe he could just use his army as a diversion so he can piss off into the white house and try to do some damage there, but that's about it.

I spelled out the limitations on the US side as well. Its not as if the US can launch an armed nuclear attack on him at will. The US is hardly operating in a vaccuum here.

The point is you keep thinking in terms of pure force. Your last statement only proves that. You think he might "use his army" as a diversion...

[Morning Star]

This worse than when I posted Culture vs WH40K at SB. Azrael really took offense to the bait.

[Connor MacLeod]

Sauron has the same chance of subverting Earth as Saddam Hussein does: zero. He is a known quantity in this scenario (everyone on Earth knows who he is, where he is, and that they don't like him), and he is monstrously outpowered by his foes. It's hard to subvert someone when you already overtly tried to conquer him; he won't exactly be letting his guard down.

And yes, he might have minions, but so does Saddam. I still don't see him becoming world dictator.

I didn't set the equation as becoming dictator I think, he only needs to get ahold of the ring. (although the Ring isnt meant to give him victory over Earth either.. maybe that would come later, maybe not.)

His only obstacle to getting the ring was the US.

I guess this is where my original debate bites me in the ass - as you said, I over complicated it

I'm also not entirely sure the WHOLE world neccesarily knows what a quantity he is (no doubt the US distrusts him because of his earlier attack, and probably his allies) but obviously some people aren't wary (or arent worried) about him, whether thats wise or not. Else he owuld not have gotten the "Don't nuke mordor" treaties I specified, nor even gotten hold of ANY technology (or mercenaries or any sort of hired technical assistance or maintenance to help) in this, no matter how flimsy a quantity he acquired.

[Morning Star]

And how does a "maybe" guarantee anything? I spelled out most of the technology he has.. the most destructive is generaly a few low-kt nukes

.

So by this reasoning Sauron is inferior in every department? How wonderfully fair. Sauron has no chance. Maybe he could just use his army as a diversion so he can piss off into the white house and try to do some damage there, but that's about it.

I spelled out the limitations on the US side as well. Its not as if the US can launch an armed nuclear attack on him at will. The US is hardly operating in a vaccuum here.

The point is you keep thinking in terms of pure force. Your last statement only proves that. You think he might "use his army" as a diversion...

yes, a diversion so he can get the hell out of there. Sauron would have to realise that no matter how slowly and subtley he moves, he has no chance. Better to use you forces as a distraction so you can try subterfuge instead, IMO.

[Sea Skimmer]

Hell its more likely the Russians will enslave Hobbits as tank crewmen then Mordor will be able to grab people from the third world.

Middle Earth is going to be isolated politically and economically. North Korea would still gladly supply small arms and other simple weapons in exchange for food. But that’s about it.

[Sea Skimmer]

.

So by this reasoning Sauron is inferior in every department? How wonderfully fair. Sauron has no chance. Maybe he could just use his army as a diversion so he can piss off into the white house and try to do some damage there, but that's about it.

I spelled out the limitations on the US side as well. Its not as if the US can launch an armed nuclear attack on him at will. The US is hardly operating in a vaccuum here.

The point is you keep thinking in terms of pure force. Your last statement only proves that. You think he might "use his army" as a diversion...

yes, a diversion so he can get the hell out of there. Sauron would have to realise that no matter how slowly and subtley he moves, he has no chance. Better to use you forces as a distraction so you can try subterfuge instead, IMO.

How the fuck does that work? Launch big attacks that everyone knows can only come from you so that you can try something clever that would naturally work better if no one was alert to you being acitive?