Darth Wong's Israel bashing

[Coyote]

By 1920, there were massive land areas in Palestine that were uninhabited, and Jews had bought land in marshlands, deserts, and malarial swamps from absentee Ottoman and Arab landlords, frequently at massively inflated prices.

By 1925, despite the sale of land that was legal and sale of land that was uninhabited, Palestinian Arabs had begun rioting and attempting to drive out the Jewish immigrants so that the Jews would not become a majority.

Bear in mind that no Jews had forcibly evicted Arabs from their homes, no Jewish Army existed to terrorize or bulldoze houses yet. In March of 1920 and Arab attack on a township killed 8 Jews, more attacks followed the townships of "Ayelet haShahar"; "Mishamar ha'Yarden"; "Mahanayim"; "Rosh Pina"; "Sharona"; "Kfar Tevor"; "Menahemya"; and "Deganya". Later in June of 1920 the ha'Ganah was formed as a result of these attacks.

In Islam, it is not allowable for a person who is a Muslim to live under the rule of a non-Muslim, even if that non-Muslim is a kind and generous leader. It had nothing to do with home-razings; if anything, it was local Palestinian gangs that were more of a threat-- unless one wishes ot count legal land purchases as a "threatenng takeover".

What I'm saying here is that despite the long-term results, I feel that the conflict in the region got started mostly as a dispute over land issues and ownership, and it would seem to me that the Palestinians started throwing punches first in protest to the land buys.

[Darth Wong]

What I'm saying here is that despite the long-term results, I feel that the conflict in the region got started mostly as a dispute over land issues and ownership, and it would seem to me that the Palestinians started throwing punches first in protest to the land buys.

I think that's beside the point though, which is threefold:

1) Why were the Jews buying up this land in this particular place, which you describe yourself as undesirable land being sold to them by hostile absentee landlords at over-inflated prices, if not religion?

2) Why did the Jews insist on trying to make this place their "homeland" despite the obvious hostility? I know you're trying to say the Palestinians started it, and I suppose we could argue about that, but I'm just saying that it's obviously a hostile situation, and it ultimately doesn't matter who starts it; there is no reason to move into a hostile situation unless you're being motivated by something else.

3) The Palestinians viewed the Jewish ethnic influx the same way the Jews view the possibility of Palestinians gaining political majority in Israel; totally unacceptable. If the Israelis' motivations are considered acceptable, then so are those of the Palestinians. It cuts both ways regardless.

Ultimately, it's still race/religion. Your own sources indicate that it was an extremely hostile place to go, thus reinforcing my point; they had no rational reason to forcibly insert themselves into that particular place. If it was about land, why were they buying undesirable land at inflated prices in order to insinuate themselves into the territory? That's pretty shitty real estate maneuvering. It's about "ethnic homeland" (ie- a racist anachronism) and religious heritage (ie- sheer idiocy).

[Coyote]

I ask-- if the Jews were using Terrorism, why would the Balfour Document be worded the way it is? Do you really know what that terrorism was for in the 1930's and 40's?

During the time of the British Mandate, the British were using Arabic countries as bases for troops. The British 8th Army, under General Auchinlek, was holding Egypt and the Suez Canal as an important strategic site.

The problem was, the Arabs did not like the British being there and there was a strong current of support for the Germans to drive the English out. The British did not want to antagonize the locals any more, so even while the Holocaust was ramping up in Europe, thousands of Jewish refugees were turned away from Palestine and in some cases (the ship Saint Louis) was actually forced to turn back and return to a German port and turn over the Jews aboard!

The British placed a cap on the amount of Jews coming to Palestine as a sop to the locals. Only a few thousand would be allowed legal immigration, the rest were placed in squalid camps no better than Dachau on the island of Cyprus. Some Jews were placed in British prison camps in England as "enemy aliens" due to their nationality-- frequently ending up in the camps with the same people they'd been trying to escape from.

The British were essentially forcing thousands of Jews to remain in Germany so the Brits could keep the peace with the Arabs and fight Rommel. The Zionist movement adopted the philosophy of "fighting the Germans as if the British didn't exist, and fighting the British as if the Germans didn't exist". From the pov of the Jews, the British were being complicit in the Holocaust.

Call me biased, but I can see why they were so upset.

[Darth Wong]

Were you planning on addressing my point about the obvious religious motivation behind selecting that particular piece of land at any time soon, or would you prefer to change to the subject of whether the Jews had understandable motivations for employing terrorism?

[Coyote]

1) Why were the Jews buying up this land in this particular place, which you describe yourself as undesirable land being sold to them by hostile absentee landlords at over-inflated prices, if not religion?

Well, the answer to this and all your other questions comes down to the same answer, which has become one of the most tragic jokes in history: they wanted to go find a place to live where they would be safe and free from persecution.

History showed that for awhile, the Jews could live in places for awhile but eventually there was always an anti-Semitism that came up and forced them out. So the Zionist Movement decided that "we will never be safe living as guests in other countries, only with our own country, rules, and laws will we be free to live our lives as we wish".

Living in Christian lands, for example, put them under the Christian calendar, where everything revolves around Sunday, Christmas and Easter, and the minor holidays are homages to Saints (Valentines, Patricks). They wanted to have things like Hannukkah and Yom Kippur off without making an issue of things.

The dream of having our own country where we'd be free to live our lives as we see fit has become a problem. It is impossible to build a nation under these stated principles while trying to subjugate another people-- especially a people with whom we'd actually been mostly peaceful partners with for so many centuries before.

[Darth Wong]

That explains why they felt they needed a homeland. It does not explain why they had to choose that particular piece of land for it.

Any piece of land where you must forcibly evict someone (never mind someone with a religious doctrine that calls for extermination of the "infidel" if he does not obey Mohameddan law) before moving in is going to be trouble. As I said before, there were other places that would have been easier. They chose this one because of religion, not land or simple nationalism.

[Coyote]

This is very true, many Jews felt that "It was land that belonged 'to the family' before, why not go back and reclaim it"? The neighbors were hostile but, well... The same could be said of black or mixed-race couples that settled in the American South, they too faced hostility and attacks. But they had a right to go and live there if they wanted.

I know this doesn't address the religious desire to live there, nor how the situation eventually got turned around to where a powerful immigrant state is able to subjugate the minority.

The right of minority groups to create their on homelands is a contentious isue; it will invariably mean taking land away from someone else, whether it be the Kurds, Basques, East Timorese, Slovenians and Bosnians... or the Quebequois or the Inuit. And nobody has more right to take land back than the Inuit...

On the one hand, who has the right to claim a homeland if it means shuffling another population... and then, who has the right to deny a homeland to someone who feels a ned for one; that they will not be safe otherwise? No easy answers.

[Darth Wong]

Which is why we need to start fucking people of different races. If the world smeared the racial distinctions that divide us through interbreeding, the concept of a racial homeland would be meaningless. As it is, I think it's racist anyway. In an ideal world, there would be no races and no racial "homelands".

[C.S.Strowbridge]

1) Why were the Jews buying up this land in this particular place, which you describe yourself as undesirable land being sold to them by hostile absentee landlords at over-inflated prices, if not religion?

Also a common history and a common culture. They wanted a home, and that area is the only place on Earth where they have a common history.

It's like if all the people of Newfoundland decent decided to form their own country. You wouldn't expect them to choose Portugal, you'd expect them to choose Newfoundland.

[C.S.Strowbridge]

Which is why we need to start fucking people of different races. If the world smeared the racial distinctions that divide us through interbreeding, the concept of a racial homeland would be meaningless. As it is, I think it's racist anyway. In an ideal world, there would be no races and no racial "homelands".

There is no such thing as a racial difference between Jews and Arabs. It's a religious and cultural difference. And since Isreal is one of the more secual *nations, cultural is a bigger difference.

*Comparing Isreal (home of the Jews) to Italy (home of Catholics) you see Italy it more religious in 6 of the 8 stats.

[Darth Wong]

It's like if all the people of Newfoundland decent decided to form their own country. You wouldn't expect them to choose Portugal, you'd expect them to choose Newfoundland.

If they'd been scattered all over the world for centuries and they suddenly decided they wanted to pull ethnic relatives from all over the world to Newfoundland and kick out the people who had moved in over the last few hundred years, I'd say it's an incredibly stupid, racist idea.

[Coyote]

Which is why we need to start fucking people of different races. If the world smeared the racial distinctions that divide us through interbreeding, the concept of a racial homeland would be meaningless. As it is, I think it's racist anyway. In an ideal world, there would be no races and no racial "homelands".

Dear God, yes! I love that idea. "Once you've had Black, you'll never go back". S'truth. And besides, variety is the spice of life.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Dear God, yes! I love that idea. "Once you've had Black, you'll never go back". S'truth. And besides, variety is the spice of life.

It won't work. A lot of the genetic stuff that causes ethnic differences in the human race would remain, and would just pop up in funny places. The human race would be more homogenous, but could never be wholly homogenous in nature, and we would still have clearly distinct ethnic groupings -- They would just be totally new ones, or at least totally new combinations of the things that made up the old ones.

Some "ethnic groups" are in truth mixes already, like the Turks, who have crossed with about every kind of 'race' imaginable during their varied Imperial days.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Argh. Accidental double post; please delete.

[Vympel]

Reminds me of Bulworth: "Everybody keeps fucking everybody else till we're all the same color"

[C.S.Strowbridge]

It's like if all the people of Newfoundland decent decided to form their own country. You wouldn't expect them to choose Portugal, you'd expect them to choose Newfoundland.

If they'd been scattered all over the world for centuries and they suddenly decided they wanted to pull ethnic relatives from all over the world to Newfoundland and kick out the people who had moved in over the last few hundred years, I'd say it's an incredibly stupid, racist idea.

Two points:

1.) What if they legally bought the land? What if there was an international agreement? What if more Newfoundlanders were moving into the area than non-Newfoundlanders that were being 'forced' to move out and there was a fair compensation plan put forth by the Newfoundlanders?

2.) IT'S NOT A FUCKING RACE, DIPSHIT! It's a culture. Sammy Davis Jr. was BLACK and a Jew. There's no differrence between the Jews and Arabs living in the Middle East. By repeatedly refering to Jews as a race, you're the one acting racist. It's not even a fucking religion cause Woody Allen, Jean Amery, David Horowitz are all Jews and they are all Atheists (Ok, the last one is an agnostic, but that's close enough.)

The only real thing they have in common is culture and a common history. And that common history is centered in Israel.

[C.S.Strowbridge]

Goddamnit! My post isn't going to show up cause of that web bug. Hopefully this post will fix that.

[Darth Wong]

1.) What if they legally bought the land? What if there was an international agreement? What if more Newfoundlanders were moving into the area than non-Newfoundlanders that were being 'forced' to move out and there was a fair compensation plan put forth by the Newfoundlanders?

"Fair" as decided by whom? And what if the people already there refuse to pack up and leave? Name one country in which a whole population would happily get up and leave when asked. And tell me where they would go; who would take them. I sure as hell wouldn't want millions of people with useless fisherman's job skills moving into my province.

2.) IT'S NOT A FUCKING RACE, DIPSHIT! It's a culture.

It's both, dipshit. That's the fucking problem.

Sammy Davis Jr. was BLACK and a Jew. There's no differrence between the Jews and Arabs living in the Middle East. By repeatedly refering to Jews as a race, you're the one acting racist.

Fuck off, asshole. You can't seriously hold up Sammy Davis Jr. as a representative sample. It is possible for someone to declare himself a Jew by religion, but Jews also consider themselves a race.

It's not even a fucking religion cause Woody Allen, Jean Amery, David Horowitz are all Jews and they are all Atheists (Ok, the last one is an agnostic, but that's close enough.)

In other words, it's both a religion and a race, you blithering idiot. How can you say it's a religion and then say it's not a religion in the next sentence without realizing that you've fucking contradicted yourself? Judaism is a tribal religion. Historical inbreeding means it is basically a race/religion. The fact that they let in some outsiders does not change the basic nature of what it is.

The only real thing they have in common is culture and a common history. And that common history is centered in Israel.

Dying for history is idiotic. Killing for history is evil. Deal with it. Pain, suffering, and death here and now cannot be justified by appealing to history.

[C.S.Strowbridge]

1.) What if they legally bought the land? What if there was an international agreement? What if more Newfoundlanders were moving into the area than non-Newfoundlanders that were being 'forced' to move out and there was a fair compensation plan put forth by the Newfoundlanders?

"Fair" as decided by whom? And what if the people already there refuse to pack up and leave? Name one country in which a whole population would happily get up and leave when asked. And tell me where they would go; who would take them. I sure as hell wouldn't want millions of people with useless fisherman's job skills moving into my province.

Here's where the analogy breaks down.

1.) Not all Palestinians were forced to leave. About a million Arabs still live in Israel. Many of the richer ones left before the formation of Israel cause the upcoming conflict would have been economically painful. Many left when Israel was formed cause the war would have been physically painful. And a smaller number were thrown out after for security reasons.

2.) The skills needed to live in Isreal don't differ from those needed in other Middle Eastern countries. So that analogy comes crashing down.

3.) There was a fucking country created for the Arabs who were displaced. It's called Jordan.

As for a matter of fairness, Israel offered to fully compensate Arabs who were displaced if Arab nations did the same for Jews. Many Jews who lived in Arabs nations lost everything trying to get to Israel. In fact, many Jews risked death if they were caught trying to get to Israel.

2.) IT'S NOT A FUCKING RACE, DIPSHIT! It's a culture.

It's both, dipshit.

Really? Then how come I can't become black but I can become Jewish?

That's the fucking problem.

No, it's your problem.

Sammy Davis Jr. was BLACK and a Jew. There's no differrence between the Jews and Arabs living in the Middle East. By repeatedly refering to Jews as a race, you're the one acting racist.

Fuck off, asshole. You can't seriously hold up Sammy Davis Jr. as a representative sample.

260,000 Black Jews in the states. Almost half who haven't converted to the religion.

Out of only 6 million Jews in the States, that's a pretty big chunk.

It is possible for someone to declare himself a Jew by religion, but Jews also consider themselves a race.

Really? So all Jews consider being Jewish a race? I'd like to see you prove that.

It's not even a fucking religion cause Woody Allen, Jean Amery, David Horowitz are all Jews and they are all Atheists (Ok, the last one is an agnostic, but that's close enough.)

In other words, it's both a religion and a race, you blithering idiot.

You're right. Except for the fact that you can be any race and still be Jewish and you can be atheist and still be Jewish. Two minor problems.

How can you say it's a religion and then say it's not a religion in the next sentence without realizing that you've fucking contradicted yourself? Judaism is a tribal religion.

Judaism is a religion, being Jewish is a culture. Just like being Canadian, or Italian, or British.

The same can be said of the British, the Royal Family being a prime example. Does that make the British a seperate race?

And being killed for a common history is just as evil. And pain, suffering and death can be justified by a clear and present danger.

[Darth Wong]

It's both, dipshit

Really? Then how come I can't become black but I can become Jewish?

You can become Jewish by religion. You can't become ethnic Jewish. The word "Jew" has two meanings, which YOU described yourself; what part of this are you too fucking stupid to understand?

You claimed that they are NOT a race, but you also claimed that they are NOT a religion. So they're a nation? Did they not exist when Israel didn't exist? You're full of shit; they are both a race and a religion. If they were defined as a simple nationality (like Canadians or Americans, in your example), they could not have existed as a coherent people or demanded a "homeland" before Israel was formed. You are putting the cart before the horse.

[C.S.Strowbridge]

Hit the wrong button. Oops.

It's both, dipshit

Really? Then how come I can't become black but I can become Jewish?

You can become Jewish by religion. You can't become ethnic Jewish. The word "Jew" has two meanings, which YOU described yourself; what part of this are you too fucking stupid to understand?

Right. And those two meanings are Religion and CULTURE. Not race. Not ethnically Jewish. But just cause someone says their a Jew doesn't mean you can assume they follow the Judaism anymore than you can assume an American follows Christianity.

Survey Says ...

Number of people in the US that call themselves Jewish: 5.3 Million
Number of Jews that follow Judaism: 2.83 million of 53%
Number of Jews that call themselves Atheists: 1.08 million or 20%
Number of Jews that followed other religions: 1.36 million or 26%

Number of people in the US: 288 million
Number of Americans that follow Christianity: 221 million or 77%
Number of Americans that call themselves 'Non-religious': 29 million or 14%
Number of Americans that follow other religions: 8 million or 4%

And I bet simliar numbers could be found in most nations.

You claimed that they are NOT a race, but you also claimed that they are NOT a religion. So they're a nation?

No. They're a culture.

Did they not exist when Israel didn't exist? You're full of shit; they are both a race and a religion. If they were defined as a simple nationality (like Canadians or Americans, in your example), they could not have existed as a coherent people or demanded a "homeland" before Israel was formed. You are putting the cart before the horse.

And you are misrepresenting my argument in horrendous ways.

Think of it this way: Italy

Italy has a common history / culture.
Italy has a predominant religion: Roman Catholic = 98%
Italy has historical inbreeding: Most of the population's ancestors are Italian.
Italians live in many other countries. Many large cities in Canada and the United States have sections called 'Little Italy.'

According to you, Italian should be considered a Religion, a Race and possibly a Nation.

According to me, Italian should be considered a culture.

[Coyote]

Actually, being Jewish is both an ethnicity with a religion attatched, and a religion with an ethnic component attatched. A convert beomes a "part of the tribe" ethnically as wel as in the belief. It makes no logical sense, and the Jews admit this.

Complicating the matter is that fact that there are four distinct "races" of Jews today-- White Europeans; Middle Easterners; Hispanic and African. The are all considered Jews equally. To the best of my knowledge, there is no real word to describe the situation, so perhaps "culture" is the best attempt...

[HemlockGrey]

And what exactly does this 'race or culture' crap have to do with Israeli aggression and oppression?

[Coyote]

Not much really. Most of the topic has been cross-examined to death by this point, I think we're all just examining details.

[C.S.Strowbridge]

And what exactly does this 'race or culture' crap have to do with Israeli aggression and oppression?

If you declare Jews a race then you can declare the concept of a nation for Jews racist.