"LOTF III: Tempest" Talkback (Spoilers)

[JME2]

As the stand-off between the Galactic Alliance and its rebellious member states erupts into full-blown battle, the new Corellian leadership develops a desperate plan to draw the Hapan Consortium into the war on their side. But, the plot poses a moral quandry for Han and Leia Solo, who cannot abide deliberately spreading the war any more than they can the murder of the Hapan Queen Mother, ex-Jedi Knight Tenel Ka. Taking it upon themselves to save her life—and that of her young daughter, Allana—the Solos set in motion a firestorm of confusion and mayhem that will pit children against parents, bring Luke Skywalker into battle with his foremost nemesis, and leave them at the mercy of one of the Jedi's oldest and most deadly enemies.

I myself won't be able to pick up the book until later in the week, so until then, let the talkback (and mockery) begin.

[Darth Fanboy]

Even if this book wasn't part of a Traviss-tainted series I wouldn't buy it just looking at that teaser.

"Oh it was really cool that we put Han and Leia on the other side! But wait, they can't be the bad guys...so we do good things on the bad side and at the end we can all be a happy family again? Good thing Episode III was released or we might have a smidge of accountability."

Denning had two really good Books with Star by Star and Tatooine Ghost IMHO, but his failure with the Dark Nest series denies him that same credibility Luceno, Zahn, and to a lesser extent Allston, have with me.

And is it just me or does the teaser indicate more of that well known EU minimalism? We have Corellia and whatever territory or other worlds their bloc encompasses trying to recruit the 64 world Hapan Consortium and I'm supposed to be convinced that this is a big fucking deal? Count Dooku didn't even bother to flick the booger off his finger at Nute Gunray when he mentioned another 10,000 worlds going to the CIS.

And as i've alreayd stated, whats the point of these fucking books if we know the Empire is going to just come back anyways, along with the Sith, thanks to those shitty comics.

[VT-16]

Working on Wookieepedia, I've seen some entries from recievers of early copies.

One new vessel is the blue, egg-shaped Corellian Dreadnaught. Covered evenly with turbolasers and missile launchers and meant to do close-quarters combat with enemy vessels. Good for blockades like the one Corellia has now, which is probably why they were built. They had "Blockade Runners" now they get "Blockade Breakers".

[JME2]

Looking over the spoilers on NJOE...

And I'm not impressed with what I'm seeing. It's not Traviss-bad, but I'm not impressed, especially again with Alema Rar's survival and now the apperance of yet another PT-era character long after they should have expired...

Edited: spelling content corrected.

[000]

Waiting to borrow a copy, because I'll be damned if I'm gonna pay for any more of Del Rey's crap.

[Cao Cao]

Oh gawd. How old are the Solos now?
I'm sick and tired of the EU propping itself up with the movie characters. Granted this isn't the fault of this new book alone (which doesn't sound great anyway) but damn, it's annoying.

[000]

Han is sixty nine, Luke and Leia fifty nine, Mara fifty seven, and Jacen and Jaina thirty one. Ben is thirteen.

I'm praying at least one of the first four die in this series. All of them kicking it would be ideal, though.

[Crazedwraith]

And Han and Co. are still active? Shit.

It'd be tolerable if they wrote them similar to Bruce Wayne in Batman Beyond ie) A grumpy old bastard running everything from a cushy chair in the batcave: constantly telling the newbies how very crap they are compared to him in his prime.

[000]

Heh, you think that's bad?

Aurra Sing shows up and engages in several spirited fights, apparently not looking a day over thirty.

She's ninety three now, remember.

[Crazedwraith]

Heh, you think that's bad?

Aurra Sing shows up and engages in several spirited active fights, apparently not looking a day over thirty.

She's ninety three now, remember.

You melted my brain, you bastard!

I'm just thankful I swore off any post NJO stuff. (Yes, I know that this makes it totally illogical to even read this threads.)

[000]

I'm usually one to defend the EU, but you made the right decision as far as Del Rey goes. I'm reading the books merely to keep up now, and it hurts. Bloodlines especially was a chore to slog through.

Don't discount Dark Horse's contributions, though-- Legacy's been, if not quite on the level of Knights of the Old Republic and, probably, Dark Times, at least a pleasant surprise.

[Connor MacLeod]

The age of the characters doesn't bother me as much (they have some sort of age-prolonging technologies after all) but I was rather bothered by Alema's apparent survival (Brings back nightmares of Corran Horn.)

Denning's writing was a bit different this time. There was more self-referencing for one thing (the bothan Admiral from the Dark Nest books for one) and he was much less precise on details of battles and such than he usually is. I have this sneaking feeling he's going down the same path Zahn did. I think the novel looks okay, but its definitely not as good as his previous work (Again, much the same way with Zahn.) I rather liked Betrayal more, but this book is still better than Bloodlines (it actually does focus more on the overall sitaution/scope and other characters besides Boba Fett, for one thing.)

Those Corellian "Dreandaughts' were twice as powerful as an Star Destroyer, and described as several times larger than a Hapan Battle Dragon, incidentally. And there apparently are newer, longer-ranged turbolaserS (that also consume much more power than other ones)

[Connor MacLeod]

Denning had two really good Books with Star by Star and Tatooine Ghost IMHO, but his failure with the Dark Nest series denies him that same credibility Luceno, Zahn, and to a lesser extent Allston, have with me.

Zahn's novels have kind of petered out after the Hand of Thrawn stuff. The first trilogy he did is still his best work: everything after that was downhill (survivor's quest and outbound Flight rate about the same level of Tempest, IMHO.) I enjoyed Dark nest more than OF or SQ, way more.

And is it just me or does the teaser indicate more of that well known EU minimalism? We have Corellia and whatever territory or other worlds their bloc encompasses trying to recruit the 64 world Hapan Consortium and I'm supposed to be convinced that this is a big fucking deal? Count Dooku didn't even bother to flick the booger off his finger at Nute Gunray when he mentioned another 10,000 worlds going to the CIS.

Actually the Confederacy was considered to be another bit of problematic minimalism scale-wise. (look here) but the importance of a member system or government like the HApans is not neccesarily predicated on sheer size or territory. The Hapans are evidently a fairly major power despite their small size. Given the portrayal of the Hapans in the past, their importance probably lies somewhere in the lines of military (a singel HApan House in this novel controlled some scores of Battle Dragons, for example) as well as wealth (hence why the Republic wanted to bring them into the fold in Courrtship), and possibly politically (Tenel Ka was a very strong and enthusiastic supporter of the Republic.)

I will also point out that the Hapans may, through various methods, in principle control FAR more territory than they directly control. The empire did this quite extensively during the civil War era (IE Hutt space, corporate sector, Centrality, etc.) One section of Tempest notes that if a few grroups like the Hutts and (I think) the Bothans allied with the Corellians, they'd effectively control something like a quarter of the republic (or maybe it was the galaxy) The same thing pretty much happened with the Separatists, in fact.

[Jim Raynor]

And Han and Co. are still active? Shit.

It'd be tolerable if they wrote them similar to Bruce Wayne in Batman Beyond ie) A grumpy old bastard running everything from a cushy chair in the batcave: constantly telling the newbies how very crap they are compared to him in his prime.

I agree. It's probable that in the SW galaxy, people live longer due to better technology. But the effects of age haven't been reduced that much. In ANH, Vader called a 59 (?) year old Obi-Wan an "old man." Sure, it was trash talk, but it would have been utterly stupid and meaningless to even say it if Obi-Wan wasn't in fact getting up there in age. Han Solo is cool and all, but how many of you want to read stories about your grandpa running around and kicking ass in his old age? The EU has so many new characters, and by now they should have been built up and written interestingly enough to carry the stories themselves.

Heh, you think that's bad?

Aurra Sing shows up and engages in several spirited fights, apparently not looking a day over thirty.

She's ninety three now, remember.

Ugh. What is the freaking point? Is Aurra Sing even popular enough to wank over and bring back? Wasn't she a failed attempt to create a new Boba Fett (a minor character or extra in the movies who would be wanked over in the EU) that never even took off?

[Darth Fanboy]

Zahn's novels have kind of petered out after the Hand of Thrawn stuff. The first trilogy he did is still his best work: everything after that was downhill (survivor's quest and outbound Flight rate about the same level of Tempest, IMHO.) I enjoyed Dark nest more than OF or SQ, way more.

Agree with the first part about Zahn's work petering out.

Actually the Confederacy was considered to be another bit of problematic minimalism scale-wise. (look here) but the importance of a member system or government like the HApans is not neccesarily predicated on sheer size or territory. The Hapans are evidently a fairly major power despite their small size. Given the portrayal of the Hapans in the past, their importance probably lies somewhere in the lines of military (a singel HApan House in this novel controlled some scores of Battle Dragons, for example) as well as wealth (hence why the Republic wanted to bring them into the fold in Courrtship), and possibly politically (Tenel Ka was a very strong and enthusiastic supporter of the Republic.)

I understand what you are saying with all this, and you are right that the Hapans have more power and wealth than their size would indicate. But even with that above average wealth and power I do not see them being as singularly important as the storyline seems to suggest they are. I'm not trying to start any Hapan debates, just pointing out disgusting minalism that has taken away my enjoyment of the post RoTJ EU.

I will also point out that the Hapans may, through various methods, in principle control FAR more territory than they directly control. The empire did this quite extensively during the civil War era (IE Hutt space, corporate sector, Centrality, etc.) One section of Tempest notes that if a few grroups like the Hutts and (I think) the Bothans allied with the Corellians, they'd effectively control something like a quarter of the republic (or maybe it was the galaxy) The same thing pretty much happened with the Separatists, in fact.

The problem I have with that analysis is that I have never seen any examples of the Hapans controlling territory in such a manner. If you have any then I will accept it in a heartbeat. But I do not think a state so reclusive would be prone to project their power like that. Again though, if there is an example of the HApans doing that and I am just unaware of it, then I concede the point.

[FTeik]

The problem I see with Hapan wealth and power is, that right until CoPL they have been a reclusive bunch living in their isolated star-cluster. The situation for Corellia should be similar (consider their position of neutrality during the clone-wars and how fucked-up the system was in R. McBridge-Allen's Corellia-trilogy).

[Vympel]

I agree. It's probable that in the SW galaxy, people live longer due to better technology. But the effects of age haven't been reduced that much. In ANH, Vader called a 59 (?) year old Obi-Wan an "old man."

By contrast, Qui-Gon was about the same age in TPM. Obi-Wan aged really badly- probably just the Tatooine climate.

(Real life, we know that Alec Guinness was way too old at the time to play a 58 year old).

[Ritterin Sophia]

By contrast, Qui-Gon was about the same age in TPM. Obi-Wan aged really badly- probably just the Tatooine climate.

(Real life, we know that Alec Guinness was way too old at the time to play a 58 year old).

I always thought that living on Tatooine, would deprive him of the better medical technology, living as a hermit would deprive him of those privelidges even more so; whereas The Jedi Order, Luke Co., and the Bounty Hunters could take advantage of this.

[Pelranius]

The Hapans seem pretty close to some major trade routes, such as the Hydian and Perlemian.

They also have a fairly decent sized standing military with respectable contributions to the Galactic Alliance military.

[QuentinGeorge]

Real life, we know that Alec Guinness was way too old at the time to play a 58 year old

Alec Guinness (born 1914) was 62 during the filming of ANH (1976).

I fail to see how that is "way too old" to play a character 4 years younger.

[Ender]

Borrowed it from a guy at work who snuck off the ship to pick it up (much like I am doing now)

Ok. Not great, not crap, but ok. some intersting technical information, and we get some new star dreadnoughts

[JME2]

Ok. Not great, not crap, but ok.

Seconded. Finished reading it and here are my thoughts.

Han and Leia: I still think Denning does the best job in writing them as a couple. And now I think we know why LOTF IV is entitled "Exiles"

Jacen: Okay, despite my comments in the talkback for Betrayal and Bloodlines, we can now officially, absolutely, and sufficently declare that Jacen Solo is batshit and gone Grandfather. He's even got the cape and Force Choke now.

Ben Skywalker: After the stunt he tried to pull on the Falcon during the Battle of Hapes, I do believe we can start moving the son of the Son of the Suns into the batshit category as well.

Vergere & Lumiya: Interesting revelations. As with Betrayal, if Lumiya is to be believed, than this explains why Vergere took her sweet time getting back to Tsavong Lah between Agents of Chaos I: Hero's Trial and Edge of Victory II: Rebirth. And we may now have the origin of the Legacy comics-era Sith too. Again, if she is to be believed. Nice duel with Luke, too. Not Luke vs. Shimrra badass, but still good. And the shades of Labyrinth of Evil in the Hunt for Lumiya were a nice touch; no wonder Denning acknowledged Luceno in the preface.

Alema Rar: Look kids; it's the next Assaj Ventress! This is why the book loses half a point. I can understand Denning utilizing characters he'd previously created (such as Admiral Bwua'tu's cameo) but there are some villains who should just stay dead, which leads into...

"Nashtah": This is the reason Tempest lost a point and there are two reasons. 1). Bringing Aurra Sing into this doesn't feel natural and more of a way to go, "Oh, let's slip in PT-references now!" Granted, I'm expecting Luke and Leia to make a side-trip to Naboo one of these days now that they know Padme's identity, but still. If anything, Boba Fett should have been saved for this and not appeared in Bloodlines. 2). Major plot hole. We learn from Leia that Luke learned of Sing from records recovered from Chu'unthor. Now, Aurra Sing was born 53 BBY. The Chu'unthor crashed 340 BBY. How in the hell did Shelly Shaprio and Denning let that slip by?.

Anywya, like Ender said, good. Not great, but still good.

3.5/5

[QuentinGeorge]

It's surprisingly not an error about the Chu'unthor, since Djinn Altis flew around a ship by the same name during the Clone Wars.

'Course, that's probably just a happy coincidence for Denning and the editors...

[JME2]

It's surprisingly not an error about the Chu'unthor, since Djinn Altis flew around a ship by the same name during the Clone Wars.

'Course, that's probably just a happy coincidence for Denning and the editors...

No, it can't be the second Chu'unthor; Leia's remarks make it clear that it's the Chu'unthor that Luke found on Dathomir in Courtship, not the Clone Wars-era vessel.

[QuentinGeorge]

Well, in that case, it's definitely an error.