Viscount stats unveiled; SSD mess resolved

000 · Post by **000** » 2006-11-28 04:43pm

Personally, I view the hero units as single craft and others as squadrons, at the very least (wings might even be better).

I agree, they could have tried for a bit more accuracy, but I'm not too bothered by it. If I find my capships get hammered by fighters too often, though, I'll probably wind up making my own rules. Executor shouldn't get nailed by an A-wing, no matter what kind of game I'm playing : P

Personally, I'm more baffled at the decision to lump the CIS with the Empire and the Republic with the Rebels.

NRS Guardian · Post by **NRS Guardian** » 2006-11-29 01:58am

The Executor and Viscount have damage reduction 1 so long as they're full strength, which means most starfighter weapons won't even hurt them until they're crippled. So unless they're hit by large numbers of missiles or attacked by capital ships and reduced starfighters are of little threat to Class 1 ships which considering what we know about the Executor fits with the movies.

They just lump "good guys" and "bad guys" together so the Republic with its Jedi is lumped with the Rebels.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-11-29 01:35pm

Speaking of damage, I think someone is playing Darkstar...

+http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b ... 32/p6/?143

Ritterin Sophia · Post by **Ritterin Sophia** » 2006-11-29 03:24pm

Can someone tell me how McEwok becomes a mod... unless it's like the Special Olympics where if you lose you still win.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-11-29 04:44pm

Being busy with real-life things at the moment (and having lost interest in posting at that worthless cesspool called TFN) I only skimmed through that thread.

McEwok wrote:
Vympel wrote:There's no uncertainty whatsoever. The quote, as posted, is that Dankayo was bombarded planet-wide. Period.
No it's not. What, precisely, makes you think that the bombardment must extend across the entire planet?

Dan-K pointed to the mention of the shuttles moving over the "now evenly-cratered surface". This refers to the appearance of the surface, without any neccessity of extending it planet-wide.

I might describe Jaina Solo running her fingers across Lowbacca's "now evely-shaved skin", but if I'd previously made clear that the target of the shaving was a "small patch of his back" (analogous to the focus of the bombardment on the "small Rebel base") then it would be obviously absurd to insist that the shaving extended to the whole Wookiee...

Just as it's absurd in this instance to insist that the bombardment extends to the whole of Dankayo.

The discussion is about whether Dankayo's entire surface was "evenly-cratered," and McEwok used an analogy about Jaina running her hands over Lowbacca's "evenly-shaved" skin. After Lord Poe revealed what kind of fanfic McEwok is in to, this part takes on a whole new meaning.

In all seriousness, McEwok can jerk off to Wookiees if he wants to. I'm not into that, but it's his right to fantasize about Wookies if that's what he's into. It's just strange that he can't keep his fetishes out of a technical debate about turbolaser firepower.

Not quite as strange, but still confusing is his dismissal of BDZ and giga-teraton level turbolasers. The ICS flat out says turbolasers are that powerful, and that doesn't contradict WEG. WEG and WEG-era EU didn't provide a lot of real-life quantifications, and the small amounts it did provide are what Saxton based his calculations on. Either this isn't a WEG issue and McEwok just plain hates Saxton (as suggested by his Tector-class bitching), or he's following along with the retarded minimalist idea that smaller numbers are always better.

Star Wars: The only fandom where the fanwhores try their hardest to pussify their favorite universe.

NRS Guardian · Post by **NRS Guardian** » 2006-11-29 05:04pm

How does McEwok respond to the statements in the Star Wars Technical Journal and the Jedi Academy Trilogy of ISDs turning entire planets to slag?

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-11-29 05:15pm

NRS Guardian wrote:How does McEwok respond to the statements in the Star Wars Technical Journal and the Jedi Academy Trilogy of ISDs turning entire planets to slag?

From the looks of it, he's trying to dismiss them as being "impressionistic," and focusing on the part of the quote where it mentioned that an ISD could do this to a "civilized" world, implying that it meant only the major population centers. That's something which the old sources don't say at all, and is directly contradicted by the AOTC ICS, which says that a BDZ melts the top of the crust.

Basically, standard Trektard arguments, only it's coming from a SW fan.

NRS Guardian · Post by **NRS Guardian** » 2006-11-29 08:37pm

Jim Raynor wrote:
From the looks of it, he's trying to dismiss them as being "impressionistic," and focusing on the part of the quote where it mentioned that an ISD could do this to a "civilized" world, implying that it meant only the major population centers. That's something which the old sources don't say at all, and is directly contradicted by the AOTC ICS, which says that a BDZ melts the top of the crust.

Basically, standard Trektard arguments, only it's coming from a SW fan.

Well, someone should bring up the fact that in Star Wars a civilized world is something like Coruscant with buildings at least a hundred kilometers tall covering the entire surface.
Also, the quote in the Jedi Academy Trilogy had Tarkin giving a description of an ISD's capabilities, and I don't think he mentions whether it's civilized or not. Just that 1-4 ISDs can turn a world to slag. Even if it is impressionistic, when telling a subordinate what their assets can do wouldn't want to give their subordinate a false impression.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2006-11-29 09:50pm

And how the fuck does he account for blowing off the atmosphere?

Post by **Surlethe** » 2006-11-29 10:52pm

NRS Guardian wrote:Well, someone should bring up the fact that in Star Wars a civilized world is something like Coruscant with buildings at least a hundred kilometers tall covering the entire surface.

Has anyone actually calculated, given assumptions about duracrete, the energy required to melt a civilized world?

Ritterin Sophia · Post by **Ritterin Sophia** » 2006-11-29 11:30pm

Okay... earlier in this thread I heard McEwok was foaming at the mouth (or something) about this explaination, anyone have a direct link cause I tried searching TF.Net but the layout of it is so atrocious I gave up in pure aggravation.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-11-30 12:49am

Jim Raynor wrote:
NRS Guardian wrote:How does McEwok respond to the statements in the Star Wars Technical Journal and the Jedi Academy Trilogy of ISDs turning entire planets to slag?
From the looks of it, he's trying to dismiss them as being "impressionistic," and focusing on the part of the quote where it mentioned that an ISD could do this to a "civilized" world, implying that it meant only the major population centers. That's something which the old sources don't say at all, and is directly contradicted by the AOTC ICS, which says that a BDZ melts the top of the crust.

Basically, standard Trektard arguments, only it's coming from a SW fan.

Yes, it certainly are the same kind of arguments, but I'm not surprised considering the arguments lately (especially the claim that the Wizards Executor retcon must imply that there indeed were Super-class vessels built.

).

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-12-01 04:52pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:And how the fuck does he account for blowing off the atmosphere?

He claims the planet was uninhabitable and had no atmosphere, so what drifted away was enclosed in domes.

IceHawk-181 · Post by **IceHawk-181** » 2006-12-01 10:53pm

…and that apparently the Empire salvaged material still reachable within the debris of the targeted base.

Milrago is a better example of BDZ-firepower anyways.

Seas of Lava and Glass are hard to argue against…

The only possible candidate for an ~8km Super Star Destroyer is the Allegiance, and even that vessel seems to have a 2-5km ceiling.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2006-12-01 11:23pm

Ender wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote:And how the fuck does he account for blowing off the atmosphere?
He claims the planet was uninhabitable and had no atmosphere, so what drifted away was enclosed in domes.

Right, and I suppose those domes also had topsoil too.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2006-12-02 03:43am

Who is the author of Scavenger Hunt? Can he be contacted and asked exactly what he meant?

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-12-02 05:37am

Lord Poe wrote:Who is the author of Scavenger Hunt? Can he be contacted and asked exactly what he meant?

That WEG RPG adventure was written by Brad Freeman (I'm not familiar with that name) and it was edited by Bill Slavicsek (that one is notorious...).

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-12-03 07:42am

Boy, now it seems as if Karen Traviss of all people is the ultimate canon authority...

+http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx ... t=25706378

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-12-03 12:29pm

First of all, does anyone else think that McDumbshit's latest Darkstar impression should be split from this thread, which was about WOTC's Starship Battles previews?

More idiocy:

Thrawn McEwok wrote:I've always been sceptical about the figure of 25,000 ISDs

That comes from your own precious EU. Are even the non-Saxton EU numbers too big for this guy now?

The Imperial Sourcebook is an in-universe Rebel dossier, and Pellaeon's reference to "Star Destroyers" could cover everything bigger than a Dreadnaught Cruiser.

Inventing new definitions for "Star Destroyer."

Personally, I like the idea of reducing the Imperial Navy to just a few hundred ISDs in 0 ABY, supported by several thousand Victory-class Star Destroyers and Ekvamar-KDY assault ships, and ten thousand or more Acclamator-class and Vindicator-class cruisers.

If we assume that "several thousand" is 5,000, this leaves the Imperial Navy with about 15,000 ships, with many of them being troop transports. Going by WEG's own numbers, that's 2,040 worlds covered by every one ship.

Of course, I'm not expecting you to agree with me - this is emphatically a minority interpretation - but it does fit within canon without infringing underlying consistency

You mean the canon where the Empire can build a Death Star II with an unnoticeable portion of its resources? Or the canon that says the Empire controls tens of millions of planets?

and it makes rather more sense of things like the significance of nine ISDs at Borosk

I haven't read this book, but according to Wookieepedia, this was a minor skirmish fought by the Imperial Remnant. The same Imperial Remnant that had been reduced to a small corner of the galaxy after decades of losing to the New Republic, but still had a SSD and 200 ISDs.

Thrawn's six-ship command armada

So Thrawn had his own personal Star Destroyer squadron. So what? Along with that current thread here about "reasonable" Thrawn Trilogy numbers, I think there's a definate brain bug about the size of Thrawn's fleet. For some reason, people seem to forget that Thrawn held about 1/4 of the galaxy, and was able to coordinate multiple simultaneous Star Destroyer attacks, made up of groups similar in size to his own).

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-12-03 01:07pm

Jim Raynor wrote:First of all, does anyone else think that McDumbshit's latest Darkstar impression should be split from this thread, which was about WOTC's Starship Battles previews?

Hm, yes. Sorry, I was the one who brought this off-topic.

In any case, TMcE believes that turbolasers etc. draws energy from hyperspace and refuses to accept canon sources.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-12-04 12:56pm

Lumping Republic and Rebels as "Light Side", and Separatists and Empire as "Dark Side" is silly on several different disparate but equally valid levels.

Nevertheless, it's just a game convention; in a game with only one sixty-piece set (there are no plans for further expansions), having four factions would be unworkable.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2006-12-06 03:56pm

The "25,000 Star Destroyer" estimate does not come solely from Pellaeon's statements in "Spectre of the Past" - The Star Wars encyclopedia mentions in its ISD entry (the Victory had its own separate entry, and the SSD was only mentioned AFTER the 25,000 figure) that the Empire built "more than 25,000 of them", so its rather hard for McEwok to justify 'a few hundred ISDs" (even though we know that comparatively speaking in SOTP, Pellaeon was talking about ships like the Chimaera.)

In any case, we know from other sources that there were thousands of sectors in the Empire, each of which had its own sector group (which included at least 24 ISDs according to various sources, such as the Star Wars technical journal.) which easily refutes his notions. Moreover, we also konw that "older" models like the Venator and Victory were getting phased out of the Navy at that time, so its unlikely they drastically outnumbered the ISDs (at least not by the margins McEwok likes to pretend.)

As an amusing side note, Cracken's Threat Dossier mentions that SSDs were mentioned to be "Sector level" commands, implying at least ONE SSD-type vessel per sector, putting that figure in the thousands easily.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2006-12-06 05:11pm

The exact quote about SSDs being sector-commands would be nice. Can somebody provide it?

Thank you.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-12-06 05:43pm

Shouldn't ROTS have killed this sort of minimalism? We see a battle at Coruscant with bajillions of ships, easily shooting down any kind of 30-ship sector fleet nonsense... and that's with the galaxy divided! Handwaving to try and get the EU novel '6 ISD' and '9 ISD' stuff to be important is a waste of time, because we've seen large SW fleets and it ain't 10 1-mile ships and hundreds of shitass Dreadnoughts.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-12-06 11:34pm

[McDumbshit]I didn't see thousands of ships, nor did I see a single Star Dreadnaught. BTW the novelization had Dreadnaughts and Carracks...[/McDumbshit]