Why wait for DW's Analysis?

[Master of Ossus]

When you have Robert Scott Anderson to analyze a film for you?

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWstnem.html

[Joe Momma]

Actually, it wasn't that bad an analysis. I have one minor quibble with:

"6. Data declares that B-4 should be allowed self-determination, and the opportunity to explore his own potential."

I'm not sure this entirely fits in with Data's arbitrary decision to download his own memory engrams into B4. OTOH, if it was simply an information download vice a personality transfer of sorts, then it's probably not an issue. Geordi seemed a little concerned about it, though.

-- Joe Momma

[Master of Ossus]

I thought it was a laughably poor analysis. Don't bother refuting it, everyone. I'll take care of it in the next couple of days.

[Captain Cyran]

I'd click on that link...but I'm afraid of what it might do to me.

[Crazy_Vasey]

By Darkstar standards it was pretty good. I only skimmed it though, Vs pages rarely hold my interest these days, it's hard to muster interest in a war that's more one sided than the era WW1 Italy Vs. Modern Day America.

[Anarchist Bunny]

This is a wonderfully enjoyable Star Trek film

I stopped RIGHT there.

[Howedar]

I found it enjoyable.

[TheDarkling]

Shush Howedar, this thread is here to bash Darkstar not to comment on the film or to agree with him .

[Master of Ossus]

Shush Howedar, this thread is here to bash Darkstar not to comment on the film or to agree with him .

Actually, I think it's just sort of interesting, and figured you guys would like to know about it. I'll take it apart, of course, during my rebuttal, but I thought it was worth sharing, first, because everyone was wondering where DW's analysis of the film was.

[TheDarkling]

Darth Wong has already given his opinion on the film and he hasn't even seen it yet, why look at the math when you know the end result?

How is the rebuttal coming by the way? are we talking days or weeks?

[Howedar]

Well I'll be damned. I just read Darkstar's review, and I actually agree with something like 90% of it. I better get into the doctor pretty soon...

[Darth Wong]

Darth Wong has already given his opinion on the film and he hasn't even seen it yet, why look at the math when you know the end result?

That's an interesting criticism. Could you perhaps locate my review of "Nemesis", since I don't recall writing one?

[Joe Momma]

By Darkstar standards it was pretty good. I only skimmed it though, Vs pages rarely hold my interest these days, it's hard to muster interest in a war that's more one sided than the era WW1 Italy Vs. Modern Day America.

It's actually not a versus page. He only mentions the Galactic Empire twice. Once in noting that the Scimitar appears to be almost as wide as a Star Destroyer is long (no statements about relative power or anything like that, just a basic size comparison), again in comparing B4's treatment to the way droids are treated in the Empire (or rather suggesting the reader compare the two).

I don't particularly agree that it was a wonderfully enjoyable film or well-paced, but that's a matter of subjective taste.

Other than that, most of the review is simple observation of various items throughout the film, for good and for ill (for instance, he does note various poor design choices). His size and speed numbers are often questionable by virtue of being rough estimations, but he admits as much; I'm not going to say anything one way or the other about them simply because I didn't pay that much attention to that aspect of the movie.

I would be interested in hearing how he estimated the firepower for the Starfleet jeep's cannon shots. Some of the assumptions are a little curious (for example, the presumption that the Scorpion fighters are meant for ground assault), but nothing stood out as horribly inaccurate from my memories of the film.

He also changed the language in one of the more glaring instances. Crusher states that a microscopic amount of Thaleron would be enough to kill everyone on the ship, leading everyone who remembers their high school education to wince at the idea of a microscopic amount of radiation*. He stated it as a "microscopic source of", which is frankly forgivable since the dialogue in the film was so fucking ridiculous.

(*It could be argued that Crusher was simply using "microscopic" as a synonym for minute, but the delivery of the line suggested this was meant to be a technical statement about the magnatude necessary.)

It was also in fairly straight-forward language, which I'll admit was a surprise after seeing his debates here.

I'm curious to see which parts horrified Master of Ossus.

-- Joe Momma

[TheDarkling]

You didnt write a review Wong but just look over your posts in this forum, they start of with "I'm going to wait" move onto "It seems I was right abut the film being bad" you then answer someones how to improve Nemesis thread with the sort of stupid answer the thread started specifically asked to be left out and you then stop off and take apart some trekies reviews of Nemesis (although they did deserve it you did make comments on the film when you only have second hand info) and finally stop off by saying

They act as though this never happened when they make the next putrified pile of donkey shit movie in two or three years.

obviously giving your opinion of the film without seeing it.

The fact is however you may be right (I don't tend to like many films on first viewing so I'm undecided myself) but that doesn't excuse the fact you have already commented on the quality of the film, so you have given you opinion on it.

[Master of Ossus]

He also changed the language in one of the more glaring instances. Crusher states that a microscopic amount of Thaleron would be enough to kill everyone on the ship, leading everyone who remembers their high school education to wince at the idea of a microscopic amount of radiation*. He stated it as a "microscopic source of", which is frankly forgivable since the dialogue in the film was so fucking ridiculous.

I found this unforgivable for reasons that will be discussed in my rebuttal. For those who are curious, I am hopeful to have the rebuttal of the most major sections posted here and mailed off the DarkStar within the next week. I don't know how long it will take to get the thing on a website.

I'm curious to see which parts horrified Master of Ossus.

-- Joe Momma

Having been through the rest of Mr. Anderson's site, no parts of this "horrified" me. I have already come to expect similar, and in fact, much worse, from Mr. Anderson. I am however concerned about a number of his findings from the movie, which will also be discussed in my rebuttal.

[Darth Wong]

They act as though this never happened when they make the next putrified pile of donkey shit movie in two or three years.

obviously giving your opinion of the film without seeing it.

No, giving my expectation of the next film.

The fact is however you may be right (I don't tend to like many films on first viewing so I'm undecided myself) but that doesn't excuse the fact you have already commented on the quality of the film, so you have given you opinion on it.

Strawman. If that line was the best you could do, you're admitting that you were bullshitting, and that I have not reviewed this film without seeing it.

[TheDarkling]

Actually I didn't bother looking I just read the bit I quoted before posting in this thread, however you said the "next" piece of etc which would imply this film was also - we can play these games all night but its clear you already have an opinion on the film from how you speak about it (the same with Voyager and Enterprise which from my understanding you have seen very little of both) if you already have an opinion about a film that hasn't ben made yet I'm sure you have an opinion about a film that has been made.

Once again I have to ask you to read my posts because I never said you had read it (your classic misreading of most of my posts comes into play again Wong)

Here once again allow we to hold you hand through my post

Darth Wong has already given his opinion on the film and he hasn't even seen it yet, why look at the math when you know the end result?

Now where in their do I say you have reviewed it - the first few times you pulled this selective understanding I just though you were making mistakes but it becomes more and more clear that you either can't help yourself or you are just plain dishonest (or you can't help being dishonest).

Continue hand waving anytime Wong but you have spoken and commented on a film you haven't seen (in fact commented on other peoples reviews), you have already formed an opinion on the next film and have implied that the films is bad (you don't expect its worth your money, the next film will be as bad etc), now unless the film is an absolute piece of art (it isn't) then its obvious which way you are going to go on the film so I am correct in saying its a foregone conclusion what you opinon of the film is.

[Darth Wong]

Continue attacking me for careless use of language, when you know I'm waiting to actually see the film before giving an official opinion on it (and that in fact, that's the whole point of this thread). Your long-winded nitpicking merely proves my point: you are gleefully engaging in strawman attacks because that's the kind of debater you are.

[Master of Ossus]

Darkling, are you saying that it was unfair of me to assume that "The Scorpion King" would be a crappy movie, after seeing the first two "Mummy" films and thinking that they both completely sucked? We have something called a "prior distribution curve" at work here. My opinion of "Scorpion King" is based on my dislike for the first two movies, made by many of the same people, and with a similar premise. It was based on extrapolation from my knowledge of previous, similar movies. Similarly, Darth Wong's early opinion of "Nemesis" is based on the failures of previous movies to deliver a good product, on the fall of ST that occurred sometime between the later seasons of DS9 but has continued strongly through Voyager and Enterprise, and on his knowledge of how the movie industry works. This is a legitimate form of extrapolation, and he does have the right to state his opinion on how he thinks the movie will be, even before he sees it, based on this prior distribution.

If I were to call American Airlines tomorrow and tell them that I knew a bomb was being carried on one of their flights by a Buddhist monk, it would probably be taken much less seriously than if I told them an Islamic extremist were about to do the same thing. This is because of the prior distribution curve. We know that Islamic extremists are more likely to carry bombs on aircraft than most people, and we know that Buddhist monks are typically very passive, and unlikely to do such a thing. Are you saying that the US was wrong to oppose Pol Pot's regime before it took power in Cambodia? Pol Pot was trying to become a communist dictator. The US knew, from prior distribution, that communism as practiced removed peoples' freedoms, and dictators also had a tendency to do so. Should we have allowed Pol Pot to take over (as he eventually did), under the theory that he might have been different from all of the other communist dictators that were also running countries, and had run countries previously? Of course not. Whether you want it to be the case or not, DW has the right to evaluate a movie based on the prior distribution of quality of previous movies. His opinion, obviously, is not fixed, but he has a right to form and state a belief about how a movie will be before he sees it based on his knowledge of general trends in movies, Star Trek, and the people involved in making this movie.

[TheDarkling]

Ah so now you admit that what you said does agree with me, why deny it earlier?

I am not engaging in strawman attacks at all - you just agreed that what you said did indicate an opinion, now you say this was a slip up I think it merely shows your bias going to watch the movie and you preconceived notions on how bad it will be., I can not prove that of course but from your general comments about the film (and post TOS trek as a whole) it seems you have already formed an opinion that it will be bad but you will wait to see the film to gauge just how bad it is.

I must say however Wong that the admission that you were almost somehow incorrect does shock me you usually bail before you are forced to admit anything of that nature, bravo.

PS It was you who started this little back and force, I merely stated you had already stated an opinion (which you now admit you had, as a slip up of course) so why bother wanting for you review (since it was obvious it won't be favourable), this attack as you so call it was actually a defense since you were stating that a was a liar (not the first time but it is the N th time I have shown it not to be true).

However if you want to stop hijacking this thread I'm willing to let it drop, so everyone can get back to intended purpose of the thread of course.

[Darth Wong]

Ah so now you admit that what you said does agree with me, why deny it earlier?

It could be construed that way if you nitpick the careless wording, although it is clearly not an explicit statement on Nemesis, and this whole fucking thread is about my refusal to give any official statements until I see the movie, asshole.

However if you want to stop hijacking this thread I'm willing to let it drop, so everyone can get back to intended purpose of the thread of course.

Wow, it takes quite an asshole to accuse someone of hijacking a thread when the hijacker is you, and he's merely responding.

[TheDarkling]

Master of Ossus: Not at all MOO, im not saying its unfair to judge a film in that manner (although going in depth arguing its merits should be left to those who have seen the film), I was simply stating that wong had already used said method to judge the film and that the outcome of his review was more or less a foregone conclusion (just a matter of how badly he slams it and whether he makes any particularly good wise cracks whilst doing it).

Although your bringing up of prior distrubution curves is actually what I'm talking about, its no secret wong has no love for trek of late thus holding true to that pattern (and his early opinion) it seems obvious that he won't like the film thus my comment which you yourself just wrote a long post confirming has a basis in reality (thanks by the way ).

[Darth Wong]

I see Darkling has nothing left in his bag but personal nitpick-attacks on me. Does he believe this accomplishes anything beyond making him look like a jack-ass?

[TheDarkling]

Shush Howedar, this thread is here to bash Darkstar not to comment on the film or to agree with him .

Actually, I think it's just sort of interesting, and figured you guys would like to know about it. I'll take it apart, of course, during my rebuttal, but I thought it was worth sharing, first, because everyone was wondering where DW's analysis of the film was.

to which I respond

Darth Wong has already given his opinion on the film and he hasn't even seen it yet, why look at the math when you know the end result?

How is the rebuttal coming by the way? are we talking days or weeks?

Not a thread hijack since the creator of the thread took it there and it was to do with he purpose of the thread (specifically just what that was).

The flashing light on your desk goes off indicating I have posted and you respond with

That's an interesting criticism. Could you perhaps locate my review of "Nemesis", since I don't recall writing one?

thus asking me to do something that has nothing to do with the thread, which I then do (although I did say opinion and not review something which you got mixed up about).

However continue to quibble about it.

[Master of Ossus]

Master of Ossus: Not at all MOO, im not saying its unfair to judge a film in that manner (although going in depth arguing its merits should be left to those who have seen the film), I was simply stating that wong had already used said method to judge the film and that the outcome of his review was more or less a foregone conclusion (just a matter of how badly he slams it and whether he makes any particularly good wise cracks whilst doing it).

Although your bringing up of prior distrubution curves is actually what I'm talking about, its no secret wong has no love for trek of late thus holding true to that pattern (and his early opinion) it seems obvious that he won't like the film thus my comment which you yourself just wrote a long post confirming has a basis in reality (thanks by the way ).

So, by your logic, I can't decide that "Scorpion King" will suck because I have not seen the movie. Now, Darth Wong's behavior in terms of "Nemesis" has been consistent. He has not seen the film, but he does discuss parts of the film that are explained to him by members of the board and presumably others that he has talked to. Thus, after being shown pictures of the Valdore class ship, he has decided that the design sucks, and is not realistic. He does not discuss whether or not the whole movie sucks because of the use of the Valdore, nor has he declared the whole movie to be sucky because of such design decisions. Rather, he has heard many other people gripe about different aspects of the movie, and agreed that their assessment of the movie based on those gripes is reasonable. Now, obviously if he sees that the movie is TOTALLY dissimilar to the one we have all been discussing (ie. if everyone here is lying), then he will change his opinion of the movie when he sees it based on what he sees. However, he trusts the opinions of a number of people that have discussed aspects of the movie, and he has a right to form an opinion of aspects of the movie that he hears about. Since he has listened to us complaining about great sections of the plot, it is incredible for him to believe that the remainder of the movie will somehow salvage it, given the amount of crap we've been griping on.