Macs: Only cool enough for your granny

[Admiral Valdemar]

Mac OS comes with Macs. Windows comes with PCs. I don't quite see your point, ray. It's not like old people are buying PCs and then installing MacOS on them

Ah, but with Boot Camp, you can do the opposite now. Of course, that pretty much nullifies the point of a Mac in my mind, which is the OS. If I could have OS X on a PC, I'd contemplate buying it. Personally, I won't use Windows unless it has a specific made-for app. that only runs on it and can't be emulated (yet) or for gaming. I'm perfectly happy with Linux which is heaps better than even a couple of years ago when I first looked at it.

In the end, I think you'll see more competition from the other two of the Big 3 OSs against Windows in the future. Macs are still growing in popularity, IIRC, even if the fanbase isn't the same as those who buy iPods and Linux is rapidly moving into the desktop scene for Joe Bloggs, rather than computing graduates or server technicians. More choice is good.

[Uraniun235]

Of course, that pretty much nullifies the point of a Mac in my mind, which is the OS.

The OS is only part of it. The point of a Mac is that Apple Computer has sat down and put together a system which is designed and built with quality, compatible components (including the OS) so that it all works cleanly. (Then sometimes they get a little too excited, but we all make mistakes.)

This is opposed to the big wide world of PCs in which there are a hojillion different motherboards, power supplies, and various types of RAM, which may or may not be total shit and may have piss-poor drivers. Even Linux can be brought to its knees by unstable hardware or shitty drivers.

[General Zod]

Of course, that pretty much nullifies the point of a Mac in my mind, which is the OS.

The OS is only part of it. The point of a Mac is that Apple Computer has sat down and put together a system which is designed and built with quality, compatible components (including the OS) so that it all works cleanly. (Then sometimes they get a little too excited, but we all make mistakes.)

This is opposed to the big wide world of PCs in which there are a hojillion different motherboards, power supplies, and various types of RAM, which may or may not be total shit and may have piss-poor drivers. Even Linux can be brought to its knees by unstable hardware or shitty drivers.

Of course, the problem with not having several options available for hardware components means that the prices are pretty much set at the manufacturer's whim and nearly guarantees that their price will be high. Like how you'll almost never find any Apple notebooks for under $1,000. Wheras I can get a variety of new or nearly PC notebooks for anywhere from $500 to just under $1k.

[ThatGuyFromThatPlace]

And that doesn't even cover that as a (beginner) Computer Enthusiast, under-clocked hardware for high-quality prices pisses me off when I could go knock together a better computer than any Mac for much less of the green.

I was unaware that Apple underclocked their computers (hint: they don't). You could build a faster computer, yes. It would also be unsupported (bad for industry purposes) and would not support OS X (part of the Mac platform, which might not be useful for you).

Actually, if you bothered to look this up instead of just assuming Mac was the infallible god of computers who could do no wrong you'd note that Macintosh has a long and active history of under-clocking hardware unnecessarily. And if I were to build a faster machine it wouldn't be a Mac anyway, seriously I have literally personally witnessed more mac crashes than PC crashes, hell, we could ignore the Mac lab crashes and my brother's mac and his friends macs have each crashed more than any two window's PCs I've ever owned. This may not be an 'ideal sample set' either but the fact remains every single Macintosh computer I have ever experienced has hard crashed more than any PC I have ever experienced I don't know where this stable operating system shit comes from but it's lies and pipe dreams to me.

[LordShaithis]

Overpriced underpowered hardware in a proprietary box that I can't upgrade, packaged with an OS nobody makes software for, and which really can't crash less than my XP Pro since it doesn't crash at all?

Sign me up for that!

[phongn]

Actually, if you bothered to look this up instead of just assuming Mac was the infallible god of computers who could do no wrong you'd note that Macintosh has a long and active history of under-clocking hardware unnecessarily.

It's funny that you think I consider Macs to be the "infallible god of computers that do nothing wrong." A search of this forum would show that I've smacked down Apple apologists and fanboys as well as detractors. And, for the record, I don't own a Mac. I built an Opteron box and carry an IBM/Lenovo T60 laptop.

And please note when Macintosh hardware has been underclocked. Since there is such a long and extensive history, surely you can note an instance in, say, the last five years. And finally, I noticed how you glossed over or ignored most of my points.

And if I were to build a faster machine it wouldn't be a Mac anyway, seriously I have literally personally witnessed more mac crashes than PC crashes, hell, we could ignore the Mac lab crashes and my brother's mac and his friends macs have each crashed more than any two window's PCs I've ever owned. This may not be an 'ideal sample set' either but the fact remains every single Macintosh computer I have ever experienced has hard crashed more than any PC I have ever experienced I don't know where this stable operating system shit comes from but it's lies and pipe dreams to me.

Ah, yes, the mighty anecdotal evidence which trumps all others. I witnessed over dozens of Windows NT machines brought to their knees repeatedly - I guess that makes said OS unreliable (hint: it wasn't the OS).

I will certainly concede the pre-MacOS X operating systems were technically inferior to their Windows counterparts ever since Windows 95 was released.

Overpriced underpowered hardware in a proprietary box that I can't upgrade, packaged with an OS nobody makes software for, and which really can't crash less than my XP Pro since it doesn't crash at all?

Well, I'll argue your second point is wrong. It might not have the software you use but there's plenty of software for it. They're not really that underpowered anymore, either.

Of course, the problem with not having several options available for hardware components means that the prices are pretty much set at the manufacturer's whim and nearly guarantees that their price will be high. Like how you'll almost never find any Apple notebooks for under $1,000. Wheras I can get a variety of new or nearly PC notebooks for anywhere from $500 to just under $1k.

True, but that's mainly because Apple has abandoned the low-end market. And, frankly, I wouldn't touch those cheap laptops anyways.

[Lancer]

Since this thread has pretty much turned into a cut & paste postcount +1, when will Crysis come out for the Mac? How about UT2007? Hmmn, Hellgate: London? Warhammer Online?

[phongn]

Since this thread has pretty much turned into a cut & paste postcount +1, when will Crysis come out for the Mac? How about UT2007? Hmmn, Hellgate: London? Warhammer Online?

Whenever they're out on Windows, since you can run Windows on a Macintosh?

[General Zod]

True, but that's mainly because Apple has abandoned the low-end market. And, frankly, I wouldn't touch those cheap laptops anyways.

There are a few decent sub-1000 notebooks out there though. If you don't need to do much in the way of gaming or heavy processor use, they're perfect for people that can't afford to spend too much on a computer. If Apple made a few low-end notebooks, they'd probably wind up raking in the sales and expanding their market even further.

[Lancer]

Since this thread has pretty much turned into a cut & paste postcount +1, when will Crysis come out for the Mac? How about UT2007? Hmmn, Hellgate: London? Warhammer Online?

Whenever they're out on Windows, since you can run Windows on a Macintosh?

So, I would have to buy the Mac, then pay for Windows as well, just to play those games on a Mac when it would be easier & less expensive to just buy a PC and run Windows to begin with?

[Seggybop]

The best setup I've had has been OSX running on my Athlon 64 PC. It took a small bit of effort to get everything working, but after that everything was great. It was also many times cheaper than an authentic Mac with the same performance.

[phongn]

So, I would have to buy the Mac, then pay for Windows as well, just to play those games on a Mac when it would be easier & less expensive to just buy a PC and run Windows to begin with?

Well, yes, but why would a PC gamer buy a Mac in the first place? It certainly could be done (via Boot Camp) but surely someone should buy a computer based on requirements, yes? I don't think anyone in the thread is arguing that one should always buy a Mac.

[Praxis]

And please note when Macintosh hardware has been underclocked. Since there is such a long and extensive history, surely you can note an instance in, say, the last five years. And finally, I noticed how you glossed over or ignored most of my points.

I think they made one laptop that had an underclocked GPU...that's about all I can think of.

[Praxis]

Since this thread has pretty much turned into a cut & paste postcount +1, when will Crysis come out for the Mac? How about UT2007? Hmmn, Hellgate: London? Warhammer Online?

I'd expect to see at least UT2007 come out on Mac, every UT game has so far.

[Ace Pace]

The best setup I've had has been OSX running on my Athlon 64 PC. It took a small bit of effort to get everything working, but after that everything was great. It was also many times cheaper than an authentic Mac with the same performance.

Explain, I've heard of such things several times, but have yet to see anyone actully provide proof.

[Covenant]

The reason to get OSX and a Mac and install windiows is that there's a few good pieces of Mac software and things that work better on it. I want a Bootcamp for my PC to let me open up a Mac emulator just for limited duty, since things like FinalCut are a lot more fun to use than Aftereffects for casual video editing and I don't want everything to always be professional grade. Since PCs haven't gotten Bootcamp yet, really, going for a Mac and dualbooting into Windows is the way to go in my head for that. Once a PC allows me to boot into OSX as well, easily, I'll do that.

What I really see as a thing Macs should look at are those tablet computers the size of a notepad. Like an iPad or something it could be. A PC one would work fine, but it'll have a zillion features I really don't need, and it's small screen would make the crackaddict bouncing icons of OSX's bottom bar more useful.

[ThatGuyFromThatPlace]

Actually, if you bothered to look this up instead of just assuming Mac was the infallible god of computers who could do no wrong you'd note that Macintosh has a long and active history of under-clocking hardware unnecessarily.

It's funny that you think I consider Macs to be the "infallible god of computers that do nothing wrong."

And yet you continue to sing there praises in *this* thread

And please note when Macintosh hardware has been underclocked. Since there is such a long and extensive history, surely you can note an instance in, say, the last five years.

whups Did I read that right? MacBook Pro's with under-clocked GPUs and Ram busses right off the first page of my Google search? Want I should find more evidence for you? What's more, when Mac enthusiast/reviewers at BareFeats expressed surprise about mac underclocking, the overwhelming response on many mac forums was "what rock have you been hiding under the last several years?"

And finally, I noticed how you glossed over or ignored most of my points.

and the only point I recall 'glossing over' is the multi-button mouse which should have died forever the day the multi-button mouse was invented. Because I'm going to go out and buy a mouse just to use it on my professors video-editing machine (my G7 is staying right where it is thank you very much) and then what? throw it away when I'm done? The fact that Macs even come with single-button mice is a travesty.

And if I were to build a faster machine it wouldn't be a Mac anyway, seriously I have literally personally witnessed more mac crashes than PC crashes, hell, we could ignore the Mac lab crashes and my brother's mac and his friends macs have each crashed more than any two window's PCs I've ever owned. This may not be an 'ideal sample set' either but the fact remains every single Macintosh computer I have ever experienced has hard crashed more than any PC I have ever experienced I don't know where this stable operating system shit comes from but it's lies and pipe dreams to me.

Ah, yes, the mighty anecdotal evidence which trumps all others. I witnessed over dozens of Windows NT machines brought to their knees repeatedly - I guess that makes said OS unreliable (hint: it wasn't the OS).

I will certainly concede the pre-MacOS X operating systems were technically inferior to their Windows counterparts ever since Windows 95 was released.

well if it wasn't the OS then Mac is sending these machines to market with faulty software somewhere along the line, that or faulty hardware because they're responsible for all of that (the only non-mac software running on the computer labs was Mozilla, and my Prof. didn't have any non-mac software) If a computer crashes for no good reason (and you can't tell what the reason is because unlike any other OS on the market it won't tell you why it crashed, just that it has. Because I couldn't figure out that when the computer starts making that noise and everything on screen freezes it has crashed, but magically I know that the computer I wouldn't otherwise have realized has crashed has stopped working because of a corrupt sector in memory, or a faulty driver. Just that box tellign me I need to restart my computer in four languages only one of which I understand) why can't they just have it display the message int he language that I chose when I frickin started the machine up for the first time? they can't be saving memory by having *all* the restart messages in one file because they Mac comes preloaded with languages that aren;t int hose four displayed when it crashes. And if they are, how do I know to restart my computer if all I speak is Tagalog?

Macintosh sells the OS, much of the software and bundles it all together with the (underclocked) hardware for you, so that when there's an error it's probably their fault. The only personally witnessed Mac Crash that might have been the fault of shoddy treatment would be the Mac Lab super-crash, but even that wouldn't really explain why fifteen computers went down in fifty minutes (typically an updated driver problem in my experience, but of course I couldn't tell here because all I got was that four language warning).

[Praxis]

whups Did I read that right? MacBook Pro's with under-clocked GPUs and Ram busses right off the first page of my Google search? Want I should find more evidence for you? What's more, when Mac enthusiast/reviewers at BareFeats expressed surprise about mac underclocking, the overwhelming response on many mac forums was "what rock have you been hiding under the last several years?"

And the retardedness continues! If you noticed my post above...I SAID THAT THEY UNDERCLOCKED THE GPU IN A LAPTOP.

Apple shipped an underclocked GPU in ONE LAPTOP due to heat issues. That's all. That's it. The media made a stink about it because it's the first time they've ever done it. You make it sound like they underclock everything.

and the only point I recall 'glossing over' is the multi-button mouse which should have died forever the day the multi-button mouse was invented. Because I'm going to go out and buy a mouse just to use it on my professors video-editing machine (my G7 is staying right where it is thank you very much) and then what? throw it away when I'm done? The fact that Macs even come with single-button mice is a travesty.

Why does it matter? If you had half a brain you'd be able to operate everything you need on a Mac without a right click...and if you're so desperately in need of it, hold the Ctrl key on the keyboard.

Sounds to me like you're simply too used to operating in Windows.

Just that box tellign me I need to restart my computer in four languages only one of which I understand)

This is called a Kernel Panic. Linux has them too, and Windows has BSODs. On a Mac, it basicly means you have a HARDWARE PROBLEM.

Macintosh sells the OS, much of the software and bundles it all together with the (underclocked) hardware for you, so that when there's an error it's probably their fault. The only personally witnessed Mac Crash that might have been the fault of shoddy treatment would be the Mac Lab super-crash, but even that wouldn't really explain why fifteen computers went down in fifty minutes (typically an updated driver problem in my experience, but of course I couldn't tell here because all I got was that four language warning).

Yet, my MacBook has yet to crash.

Oh wait, I think it crashed one time while I was booted in Windows. That's right, almost forgot.

[Xisiqomelir]

I'd switch from Apple if someone else made a good 17" OS X laptop.

[Stark]

I think the mentality display in this thread is quite telling. I like Macs: I recommend them to many users. I would however never, ever use one as my primary box, and I like Mac laptops because playing games on laptops is retarded.

They are NOT for everyone. However, for 'real people', ie NOT internet fanboy retards complaining about UT2k7, they're a useful, flexible, easy-to-use system. It isn't about what is 'better', but 'most appropriate'. This sort of assessment might be difficult for forum junkies to understand, but Apple deliberately targets the casual user market, and in my experience casual users are either ignorant of Macs entirely or own one and like it.

[General Zod]

I think the mentality display in this thread is quite telling. I like Macs: I recommend them to many users. I would however never, ever use one as my primary box, and I like Mac laptops because playing games on laptops is retarded.

They are NOT for everyone. However, for 'real people', ie NOT internet fanboy retards complaining about UT2k7, they're a useful, flexible, easy-to-use system. It isn't about what is 'better', but 'most appropriate'. This sort of assessment might be difficult for forum junkies to understand, but Apple deliberately targets the casual user market, and in my experience casual users are either ignorant of Macs entirely or own one and like it.

My biggest personal gripe with macs is they're cost prohibitive. If they came out with sub-$1000 models for their notebook lines that had as much flexibility in features as sub-$1000 PC notebooks did, I'd probably consider buying one. (Seeing I'm not much of a gamer in general, being able to play Quake 4 or UT2k7 isn't a huge issue for me. I'm mainly after something that's able to burn the occasional DVDs, run all the software I need and can occasionally play Civ 3. Which most sub $1k PC laptops can do.)

[Stark]

I can only tentatively agree with that, as I've never seriously looked at desktop Macs. Macbooks are similar to half-decent Windows laptops (at least in AU), but there is nothing under the AU$1600 lowend model to compare with the shit end of the laptop market.

However, for many people, it's worth a few extra hundred bucks for a system that won't have them on the phone to tech support every time they want to do something. I have zero interest in a PC laptop (particularly the AU$5000 highend huge 'gaming' ones) and Macbooks do everything I want in a small, easy to use package.

Out of interest, what 'feature flexibility' don't Mac laptops have? They've got almost everything standard, and you can add RAM/HDD/etc.

[General Zod]

I can only tentatively agree with that, as I've never seriously looked at desktop Macs. Macbooks are similar to half-decent Windows laptops (at least in AU), but there is nothing under the AU$1600 lowend model to compare with the shit end of the laptop market.

However, for many people, it's worth a few extra hundred bucks for a system that won't have them on the phone to tech support every time they want to do something. I have zero interest in a PC laptop (particularly the AU$5000 highend huge 'gaming' ones) and Macbooks do everything I want in a small, easy to use package.

Out of interest, what 'feature flexibility' don't Mac laptops have? They've got almost everything standard, and you can add RAM/HDD/etc.

Mainly having the option of more components for less cost. Many sub-$1k pc notebooks offer dual layer dvd burners, for example. But good luck finding anything more than a cd-rw on a mac laptop for their low end costs. As far as having to phone tech support? I suppose that's applicable if you're not very computer savvy, but for someone like me whose been using PCs for years, Mac environments are pretty foreign and making adjustments to personalize your computers is standard, simple stuff.

Costwise, the laptop I have right now only ran me $750. With the components I got a 2ghz Turion 64 processor, dual layer dvd burner, 80gbhdd, and 512mb of ram. If I wanted anything even remotely similar with a Mac I'd have to shell out at least twice as much. When you can't afford to spend very much on a machine and don't want anything too fancy, budget PC laptops imo are a good investment. Honestly, it seems like Apple is ignoring a possibly sizable market by not making more inexpensive models.

[ray245]

Tell me...how many people are really interested into computer as compared to casual computer buyers. For all they care, a computer with enough memory space, good running speed, and don't crash alot, it's good enough for them.

Most people who owns a computer would only bother to use it to surf, download songs, play a few fun games like Counterstrike and DOTA and chat.

Sure, they may know that Mac can be better, but bother to spend more when Windows XP is already good enough for all these functions?

Even most casual people who play computer games would not bother about the 'high end' games like F.E.A.R. CS: source is considered good enough for their playing needs.

[phongn]

And yet you continue to sing there praises in *this* thread

How much praise have I given the Mac platform in this thread? Please, enlighten me. Do not confuse my rebuttal of your points with fervent support for Cupertino.

whups Did I read that right? MacBook Pro's with under-clocked GPUs and Ram busses right off the first page of my Google search? Want I should find more evidence for you? What's more, when Mac enthusiast/reviewers at BareFeats expressed surprise about mac underclocking, the overwhelming response on many mac forums was "what rock have you been hiding under the last several years?"

Wait, what? A laptop with (dynamic) underclocked systems to reduce heat output and increase battery life? That's not unnecessary underclocking, though I'll concede it is an instance that I overlooked. Perhaps I should have restated my original question - I did not see any sign of Apple underclocking computers for no real purpose.

Furthermore, they certainly don't underclock on their towers. Equip them with older GPUs, maybe, but if anything they're pushing the CPUs in those machines (witness the elaborate cooling that the PowerPC G5 required).

and the only point I recall 'glossing over' is the multi-button mouse which should have died forever the day the multi-button mouse was invented. Because I'm going to go out and buy a mouse just to use it on my professors video-editing machine (my G7 is staying right where it is thank you very much) and then what? throw it away when I'm done? The fact that Macs even come with single-button mice is a travesty.

The single-button mouse metaphor was a deliberate user-interface decision to attempt to force application developers to not hide elements from the user behind a context menu; at any rate Apple has since abandoned the single-button mouse concept and for years you could do command-click, which is not nearly the inconvenience you make it out to be.

well if it wasn't the OS then Mac is sending these machines to market with faulty software somewhere along the line, that or faulty hardware because they're responsible for all of that (the only non-mac software running on the computer labs was Mozilla, and my Prof. didn't have any non-mac software) If a computer crashes for no good reason (and you can't tell what the reason is because unlike any other OS on the market it won't tell you why it crashed, just that it has.

Yes, because the NT BSOD tells you so much information unless you have debugging symbols installed. For that matter, application-level crashes in XP typically are rather undescriptive, are they not? Or Linux's usual desktop environments?

And presumably a university Macintosh (especially older machines of the PPC era) would only have Macintosh software installed, kind of how like Windows machines would generally only have Windows software installed. Or were you referring to non-Apple software? The distinction is nontrivial.

Because I couldn't figure out that when the computer starts making that noise and everything on screen freezes it has crashed, but magically I know that the computer I wouldn't otherwise have realized has crashed has stopped working because of a corrupt sector in memory, or a faulty driver.

What?

Just that box tellign me I need to restart my computer in four languages only one of which I understand) why can't they just have it display the message int he language that I chose when I frickin started the machine up for the first time? they can't be saving memory by having *all* the restart messages in one file because they Mac comes preloaded with languages that aren;t int hose four displayed when it crashes. And if they are, how do I know to restart my computer if all I speak is Tagalog?

Internationalized variants of OS X are a bit different than the North American versions and IIRC have customized dialog boxes. The same, incidentally, goes for Windows. Also, upon a critical system crash (like in a restart) the information on languages may not be readily available - so the OS must print a default message.

Macintosh sells the OS, much of the software and bundles it all together with the (underclocked) hardware for you, so that when there's an error it's probably their fault.

No, Apple sells the OS, much of the software and bundles it. And no, the error could be in other places; we have insufficient information.

The only personally witnessed Mac Crash that might have been the fault of shoddy treatment would be the Mac Lab super-crash, but even that wouldn't really explain why fifteen computers went down in fifty minutes (typically an updated driver problem in my experience, but of course I couldn't tell here because all I got was that four language warning).

Something is seriously wrong with that lab configuration. No MacOS X (or Windows 2K/XP or Linux) box should be that unstable.

Costwise, the laptop I have right now only ran me $750. With the components I got a 2ghz Turion 64 processor, dual layer dvd burner, 80gbhdd, and 512mb of ram. If I wanted anything even remotely similar with a Mac I'd have to shell out at least twice as much. When you can't afford to spend very much on a machine and don't want anything too fancy, budget PC laptops imo are a good investment. Honestly, it seems like Apple is ignoring a possibly sizable market by not making more inexpensive models.

Yeah, but Apple is unlikely to make much money off of the low-end. Down low the main arbiter is price and Apple is not going to be able to effectively compete there, not without cutting big corners or ruining their design aesthetic with too many compromises (image means a lot for "boutique" companies like Apple). At any rate, I don't particularly like the build quality of those lower-end laptops.

Tell me...how many people are really interested into computer as compared to casual computer buyers. For all they care, a computer with enough memory space, good running speed, and don't crash alot, it's good enough for them.

Yes, but increasingly users are finding that maintaining a stable, secure operating system is a pain in the ass for Windows. I can do it no problem but the average user is not that well-trained. The Mac represents a simple, easy-to-use and apparently secure alternative that many consumers think is worth the price premium.