B5 Shadows vs Empire

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2002-08-02 03:48pm

The other problem with that tactic is that unlike B5 ships Starwars ships are Gasp!, shielded. It is rather difficult to inject quantum 40 inside a shielded ship IMO

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-08-02 03:49pm

And how will they phase in in atmosphere? Where have we seen this ability, exactly?

Post by **fgalkin** » 2002-08-02 03:53pm

SirNitram wrote:And how will they phase in in atmosphere? Where have we seen this ability, exactly?

In Endgame, when a whitestar jumps into Mars atmosphere.

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2002-08-02 03:55pm

fgalkin wrote:Everyone here seems to overlook one advantage the Shadows have over the Empire. They have infinite lifespans that allow them to wait out before action for a much longer period of time. Here's how I think it will happen.

After the Empire invades the B5 galaxy, the Shadows move to hyperspace. During the show, they had a staggering 2(!) planets under their control, which means that they don't have a need for planets, or at least that they can do without planets. They build bases in Hyperspace, leaving the Empire to do whatever it wants to with the Young Races or the Drakh. The bases are deep in Hyperspace beyond the reach of the Empire.

we only have 1 planet, do we need 1?
just cause they only have 2, doesn't mean they don't need them
the empire has droids, they are fluff material, they produce and make them by the millions, send them into hyperspace to make new becon network, to find the shadows, use their communication technology to its max, can transmit 100,000 light years real time remember?

The Shadows may even build bases in Hyperspace in the SW galaxy. There is no beacon network there, and constructing one will prove to be very hard for a race that has little control over hyperspace.

how are they going to get through the wormhole?

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2002-08-02 03:56pm

fgalkin wrote:
SirNitram wrote:And how will they phase in in atmosphere? Where have we seen this ability, exactly?
In Endgame, when a whitestar jumps into Mars atmosphere.

you mean when there was a ground team, sending coordinates ahead of time? guess you forgot to mention that

Post by **fgalkin** » 2002-08-02 04:01pm

Omega-13 wrote:
fgalkin wrote:
SirNitram wrote:And how will they phase in in atmosphere? Where have we seen this ability, exactly?
In Endgame, when a whitestar jumps into Mars atmosphere.
you mean when there was a ground team, sending coordinates ahead of time? guess you forgot to mention that

You mean to a whitestar with an inferior jump drive. The ground team sent coordinates to the whitestar because they had no way of knowing where they are jumping. The Shadows with their phasing/cloaking tech are clearly beyond that level of technology and can phase in wherever they want to.

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2002-08-02 04:03pm

just cause they are more advanced, doesn't mean they can phase in wherever they want, this proves only 1 thing, that they have more advanced jump engines, not that they can phase in anywhere they want,

nice try, still proves nothing

Post by **fgalkin** » 2002-08-02 04:05pm

Omega-13 wrote:
fgalkin wrote:Everyone here seems to overlook one advantage the Shadows have over the Empire. They have infinite lifespans that allow them to wait out before action for a much longer period of time. Here's how I think it will happen.

After the Empire invades the B5 galaxy, the Shadows move to hyperspace. During the show, they had a staggering 2(!) planets under their control, which means that they don't have a need for planets, or at least that they can do without planets. They build bases in Hyperspace, leaving the Empire to do whatever it wants to with the Young Races or the Drakh. The bases are deep in Hyperspace beyond the reach of the Empire.
we only have 1 planet, do we need 1?
just cause they only have 2, doesn't mean they don't need them
the empire has droids, they are fluff material, they produce and make them by the millions, send them into hyperspace to make new becon network, to find the shadows, use their communication technology to its max, can transmit 100,000 light years real time remember?

The Shadows may even build bases in Hyperspace in the SW galaxy. There is no beacon network there, and constructing one will prove to be very hard for a race that has little control over hyperspace.
how are they going to get through the wormhole?

After B5 Galaxy becomes subjugated, the Empire will decrease the patrols at the wormhole. Shadow ships may be able to slip through if they phase into hyperspase as soon as they are on the other side. Of course, this will not happen immmedeatly, they will have to wait a few decades, but it will not change the outcome.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2002-08-02 04:07pm

Omega-13 wrote:just cause they are more advanced, doesn't mean they can phase in wherever they want, this proves only 1 thing, that they have more advanced jump engines, not that they can phase in anywhere they want,

nice try, still proves nothing

They have cloaking tech which makes them partially phased in while partially still in hyperspase.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-08-02 04:07pm

The longer the Shadows wait, the more advances the Empire will make. They may not develop Quantum Thingybobbers, but they will be refining what they have. Better planetary shields, for example, exploring B5's galaxy, etc....

Post by **fgalkin** » 2002-08-02 04:13pm

SirNitram wrote:The longer the Shadows wait, the more advances the Empire will make. They may not develop Quantum Thingybobbers, but they will be refining what they have. Better planetary shields, for example, exploring B5's galaxy, etc....

And the Shadows will be monitoring them. It doesn't matter what they do. They can BDZ the B5 galaxy, or conquer them, they still won't be able to reach the shadows. And if they do expand into the B5 galaxy, they will only help the shadows, since they will not have to enter SW galaxy at all, they could relaes the plague in the B5 galaxy.

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2002-08-02 04:13pm

fgalkin wrote:
Omega-13 wrote:just cause they are more advanced, doesn't mean they can phase in wherever they want, this proves only 1 thing, that they have more advanced jump engines, not that they can phase in anywhere they want,

nice try, still proves nothing
They have cloaking tech which makes them partially phased in while partially still in hyperspase.

so? still doesn't prove anything, unless we've seen it happen in cannon or official, you can't prove it,

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2002-08-02 04:14pm

SirNitram wrote:The longer the Shadows wait, the more advances the Empire will make. They may not develop Quantum Thingybobbers, but they will be refining what they have. Better planetary shields, for example, exploring B5's galaxy, etc....

they won't have to develop jump point tech, they'll get it from the YR, and then research it on their own, once they know how it works, and how to build them,

when you got big balls like the empire, you don't have to say thank you and please

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2002-08-02 04:16pm

fgalkin wrote:
SirNitram wrote:The longer the Shadows wait, the more advances the Empire will make. They may not develop Quantum Thingybobbers, but they will be refining what they have. Better planetary shields, for example, exploring B5's galaxy, etc....
And the Shadows will be monitoring them. It doesn't matter what they do. They can BDZ the B5 galaxy, or conquer them, they still won't be able to reach the shadows. And if they do expand into the B5 galaxy, they will only help the shadows, since they will not have to enter SW galaxy at all, they could relaes the plague in the B5 galaxy.

why won't the empire be able to find the shadows? The empire has amazing communication technology, using this with a beacon network along with millions of probe droids searching hyperspace, they would be charting new terrirtory by the thousands of lightyears daily

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-08-02 04:16pm

fgalkin wrote:
SirNitram wrote:The longer the Shadows wait, the more advances the Empire will make. They may not develop Quantum Thingybobbers, but they will be refining what they have. Better planetary shields, for example, exploring B5's galaxy, etc....
And the Shadows will be monitoring them. It doesn't matter what they do. They can BDZ the B5 galaxy, or conquer them, they still won't be able to reach the shadows. And if they do expand into the B5 galaxy, they will only help the shadows, since they will not have to enter SW galaxy at all, they could relaes the plague in the B5 galaxy.

Actually, learning from the YR, they may be able to reinforce their planetary shields to prevent the Shadows from Phasing in. This of course, all hinges on the Shadows not being blown apart when they phase in, by planetary guns.

Of course, why would the Shadows fight the Empire? Aren't they the embodiment of 'Strength Through Evolution'? Thus, they would likely foment battles between the Empire and other groups, forcing all sides to adapt and become stronger.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2002-08-02 04:18pm

Omega-13 wrote:
fgalkin wrote:
Omega-13 wrote:just cause they are more advanced, doesn't mean they can phase in wherever they want, this proves only 1 thing, that they have more advanced jump engines, not that they can phase in anywhere they want,

nice try, still proves nothing
They have cloaking tech which makes them partially phased in while partially still in hyperspase.
so? still doesn't prove anything, unless we've seen it happen in cannon or official, you can't prove it,

The fact that they have this tech is official (they are cloaked in the show). My point is if they have that level of control over hyperspace, they know whare they're going and they don't need coordinated transmitted to them since they track objets in realspace (morden) while in hyperspace.

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2002-08-02 04:18pm

Of course, why would the Shadows fight the Empire? Aren't they the embodiment of 'Strength Through Evolution'? Thus, they would likely foment battles between the Empire and other groups, forcing all sides to adapt and become stronger.

they wouldn't have a choice but to fight back, fight or die, basically the emperor wants them taken out,

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2002-08-02 04:19pm

fgalkin wrote:
Omega-13 wrote:
fgalkin wrote: They have cloaking tech which makes them partially phased in while partially still in hyperspase.
so? still doesn't prove anything, unless we've seen it happen in cannon or official, you can't prove it,
The fact that they have this tech is official (they are cloaked in the show). My point is if they have that level of control over hyperspace, they know whare they're going and they don't need coordinated transmitted to them since they track objets in realspace (morden) while in hyperspace.

the shadow ships have mass, they have gravity, which means if they are partially in real space, they can be detected by Imperial sensors, then blasted into atoms.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-08-02 04:19pm

Omega-13 wrote:
Of course, why would the Shadows fight the Empire? Aren't they the embodiment of 'Strength Through Evolution'? Thus, they would likely foment battles between the Empire and other groups, forcing all sides to adapt and become stronger.
they wouldn't have a choice but to fight back, fight or die, basically the emperor wants them taken out,

Then the logical thing to do is to hide in Hyperspace, and work from behind the scenes once the Empire is present in the Galaxy. Unless, of course, they can't leave the corporeal galaxy like you say.

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2002-08-02 04:21pm

SirNitram wrote:
Omega-13 wrote:
Of course, why would the Shadows fight the Empire? Aren't they the embodiment of 'Strength Through Evolution'? Thus, they would likely foment battles between the Empire and other groups, forcing all sides to adapt and become stronger.
they wouldn't have a choice but to fight back, fight or die, basically the emperor wants them taken out,
Then the logical thing to do is to hide in Hyperspace, and work from behind the scenes once the Empire is present in the Galaxy. Unless, of course, they can't leave the corporeal galaxy like you say.

How far can they run? the empire is moving probe droids 100's or 1000's of times faster than the shadow ships, millions of them, searching, and as they go, laying down a beacon network, charting hyperspace basically

Post by **fgalkin** » 2002-08-02 04:23pm

SirNitram wrote:
fgalkin wrote:
SirNitram wrote:The longer the Shadows wait, the more advances the Empire will make. They may not develop Quantum Thingybobbers, but they will be refining what they have. Better planetary shields, for example, exploring B5's galaxy, etc....
And the Shadows will be monitoring them. It doesn't matter what they do. They can BDZ the B5 galaxy, or conquer them, they still won't be able to reach the shadows. And if they do expand into the B5 galaxy, they will only help the shadows, since they will not have to enter SW galaxy at all, they could relaes the plague in the B5 galaxy.
Actually, learning from the YR, they may be able to reinforce their planetary shields to prevent the Shadows from Phasing in. This of course, all hinges on the Shadows not being blown apart when they phase in, by planetary guns.

Of course, why would the Shadows fight the Empire? Aren't they the embodiment of 'Strength Through Evolution'? Thus, they would likely foment battles between the Empire and other groups, forcing all sides to adapt and become stronger.

How would reinforcing plnetary shields prevent the shadows from phasing in. Unless they extend to hyperspace, they can't stop them. And building hyperspace shilds is beyond YR capabilities.

Besides, the shields are down most of the time. And there will be no reason to keep them up in the pacified B5 galaxy 20 years later after the war.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-08-02 04:24pm

Follow the rest of the FO's? Make deals with YR? If they can't run, they die, crushed under the Empire's heel. Of course, their purpose is to protect the YR, is this not so? Henceforth they must remain in the corporeal galaxy and, well, get smashed.

Then again the Vorlons may decide on a temporary truce with the Shadows and hide them from the Empire.. The Empire's order may clash with the Vorlon ideals.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-08-02 04:24pm

The books make it clear planetary shields are up most of the time. Ref; Rogue Squadron.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2002-08-02 04:27pm

Omega-13 wrote:
SirNitram wrote:
Omega-13 wrote: they wouldn't have a choice but to fight back, fight or die, basically the emperor wants them taken out,
Then the logical thing to do is to hide in Hyperspace, and work from behind the scenes once the Empire is present in the Galaxy. Unless, of course, they can't leave the corporeal galaxy like you say.
How far can they run? the empire is moving probe droids 100's or 1000's of times faster than the shadow ships, millions of them, searching, and as they go, laying down a beacon network, charting hyperspace basically

No, SW ships are faster due to hyperdrive. In Hyperspace, they move slower than Shadow ships. And, the drones will be lost in the first graitiational eddie or vortex.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2002-08-02 04:34pm

SirNitram wrote:The books make it clear planetary shields are up most of the time. Ref; Rogue Squadron.

Then, they will interfere with commerce, since no ships will be able to land or leave the planet. The Empire dies due to economic stagnation.

No, really, who said that the shadows will not abandon their duties as guardians in face of a greater danger. They weren't exactly "protecting" them when they were using SPKs on planets, were they?

Also, if the Empire conquers the B5 galaxy, all the Shadows have to do is spread their 1,000 year plague on as many planets as they can, before the empire can establish any significant presence there. This actually would be the bst way, because when the unsuspecting Imperials come there, they get infected.