NBSG-What is Starbuck's destiny?

Crom · Post by **Crom** » 2006-12-04 11:31am

My roommates and I have hated Starbuck since we rewatched the series. Her character, for me, really turns for the worst during the Caprica arc where it was revealed that not only was Starbuck a tortured angsty artist, she was almost a professional pyramid player, and good enough take on Anders despite having a bum leg. Right around then she started to cross into Mary Sue land.

In addition to that she's supposed to be some kind of tactical genius, the best fighter pilot (EVAR), and an incredibly destructive person both to herself and to people around her for almost no reason I can tell.

Ever since New Caprica she's been even worse. I wish the writers would stop pumping angst into her.

tim31 · Post by **tim31** » 2006-12-04 11:51am

At least they're consistent about it; they could have just glossed over the events of New Cap and thought they'd gotten away with it. While I won't make excuses for Starbuck before NC, I have to say that if what happened to her down there and then on Galactica's hanger after retrieval had happened to me, I would be an emotional wreck too(as it was, I was drained just watching that scene.)

Lord Poe wrote: Oh, fuck A-Team. You could cast Karen Traviss as Face and I wouldn't care!

(bows) Your witty rejoinders are always enjoyed, sir!

Cao Cao · Post by **Cao Cao** » 2006-12-04 12:13pm

Lord Poe wrote:
tim31 wrote:Imagine how furious you'll be when they cast Kate Sackhoff as the Face in the A-Team remake
Oh, fuck A-Team. You could cast Karen Traviss as Face and I wouldn't care!

I pity the foo who don't respect the role of Face!

Sam Or I · Post by **Sam Or I** » 2006-12-04 01:18pm

Crom wrote:My roommates and I have hated Starbuck since we rewatched the series. Her character, for me, really turns for the worst during the Caprica arc where it was revealed that not only was Starbuck a tortured angsty artist, she was almost a professional pyramid player, and good enough take on Anders despite having a bum leg. Right around then she started to cross into Mary Sue land.

In addition to that she's supposed to be some kind of tactical genius, the best fighter pilot (EVAR), and an incredibly destructive person both to herself and to people around her for almost no reason I can tell.

Ever since New Caprica she's been even worse. I wish the writers would stop pumping angst into her.

Psst..... You forgot the best sniper as well.

I hate in show character wank.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2006-12-04 07:50pm

petesampras wrote:Inhumanly strong and fast.

The closest relatives of our species - chimpanzees and bonobos - are about 10 times stronger than we are, yet share something like 99% of our DNA. Apparently, based on reality, you don't need extreme changes to make a significant difference in strength. Perhaps a careful analysis of muscle/tendon insertion points and such would reveal these differences but it would probably be pretty subtle.

Able to survive in a radioactive environment unassisted.

There are microbes that live in the coolant water of nuclear reactors. Cockroaches are infamous for tolerating radiation that would kill other creatures.

Mostly, what would be needed are better DNA repair mechanisms. The fact that Cylons don't reproduce as humans do mean they don't have to worry about gonadal damage, and if their body lifetimes are cut short by cancer they download into a new one. Cylons in higher radiation environments like post-war Caprica may, in fact, be sustaining damage but unlike humans it's damage they can repair and/or survive.

Able to survive immense water pressure.

OK, got me there - I didn't see the deleted scene referenced and I'm not sure how you'd get around that.

Post by **Vympel** » 2006-12-04 09:03pm

Sam Or I wrote:
Psst..... You forgot the best sniper as well.

I hate in show character wank.

Yeah, that was incredibly superflous and was obviously a paper-thin excuse to get Starbuck in the team storming the Astral Queen when she otherwise had no legitimate reason to be there at all.

"I'm the best shot in or out of the cockpit."

Yeah, you're a better sniper than a frakking Marine ... bullshit.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2006-12-04 09:30pm

Vympel wrote:
Sam Or I wrote:Psst..... You forgot the best sniper as well.

I hate in show character wank.
Yeah, that was incredibly superflous and was obviously a paper-thin excuse to get Starbuck in the team storming the Astral Queen when she otherwise had no legitimate reason to be there at all.

"I'm the best shot in or out of the cockpit."

Yeah, you're a better sniper than a frakking Marine ... bullshit.

I was under the impression that the number of Marines onboard Galactica were few. It's always possible that Starbuck likes sharpshooting as a hobby.

She might not be Special Forces grade, but the context for that scene suggests to me that she might very well be the best sharpshooter on Galactica, which is possible if their marine contingent was understrength and didn't have any particularly exceptional sharpshooters. Maybe.

/rationalisations...

Post by **Vympel** » 2006-12-04 10:17pm

Stofsk wrote: I was under the impression that the number of Marines onboard Galactica were few. It's always possible that Starbuck likes sharpshooting as a hobby.

Yeah, but it's still insipid Mary Sue bullshit.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2006-12-05 12:33am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Man, lay off. You're as bad on the series as Dirk Benedict himself...

Why? His criticisms are certainly valid in most respects. The show is a nearly unrelenting slog of disfunctional people and constant pessimism. That's perhaps the primary criticism of the show and it's hard to argue he's wrong.

I mean Starbuck is the golden child of the series, and she's an utterly wretched human being.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2006-12-05 12:46am

The show is a nearly unrelenting slog of disfunctional people and constant pessimism. That's perhaps the primary criticism of the show and it's hard to argue he's wrong.

There might be a lot of dysfunctional people, but constant pessimism is hardly the term I'd use given the number of times that Galactica and crew have managed to win against the Cylons.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2006-12-05 12:58am

Uraniun235 wrote:
The show is a nearly unrelenting slog of disfunctional people and constant pessimism. That's perhaps the primary criticism of the show and it's hard to argue he's wrong.
There might be a lot of dysfunctional people, but constant pessimism is hardly the term I'd use given the number of times that Galactica and crew have managed to win against the Cylons.

I would make a distinction between them having luck and the show being rather pessimistic. In general the show has shown that things will go badly, people will fail, and things will generally just get worse.

Post by **Vympel** » 2006-12-05 01:23am

Why? His criticisms are certainly valid in most respects. The show is a nearly unrelenting slog of disfunctional people and constant pessimism. That's perhaps the primary criticism of the show and it's hard to argue he's wrong.

I mean Starbuck is the golden child of the series, and she's an utterly wretched human being.

I don't find Benedict's criticisms valid, myself. His "Lost in Castration" article is a great big whiney little screed of bullshit, as far as I'm concerned. It's not true that all the men in the show are weak and all the women are strong. It's not true that the show is constantly pessimistic. And, what I find personally the most insulting, is his elitist shit about how nBSG is only popular because of the machinations of "technocrats" and "marketing" and similar bullshit- because that's the only explanation because why the campy, tacky crap of oBSG could be cancelled after one season but nBSG goes on and is quite popular, in his mind- people are stupid and they can't see that the show's actually terrible

Cao Cao · Post by **Cao Cao** » 2006-12-05 07:01am

Vympel wrote:I don't find Benedict's criticisms valid, myself. His "Lost in Castration" article is a great big whiney little screed of bullshit, as far as I'm concerned. It's not true that all the men in the show are weak and all the women are strong. It's not true that the show is constantly pessimistic. And, what I find personally the most insulting, is his elitist shit about how nBSG is only popular because of the machinations of "technocrats" and "marketing" and similar bullshit- because that's the only explanation because why the campy, tacky crap of oBSG could be cancelled after one season but nBSG goes on and is quite popular, in his mind- people are stupid and they can't see that the show's actually terrible

Wow. Sour grapes much? Yeah it's so much worse that the sole purpose of 90% of the women on the show isn't to be fucked by a male Starbuck.

He sounds like a whiner; Richard Hatch arguably lost more out of this since he was trying to get his own continuation of oBSG made and he doesn't constantly bitch about nBSG.

Post by **Vympel** » 2006-12-05 07:44am

Cao Cao wrote: Wow. Sour grapes much? Yeah it's so much worse that the sole purpose of 90% of the women on the show isn't to be fucked by a male Starbuck.
He sounds like a whiner; Richard Hatch arguably lost more out of this since he was trying to get his own continuation of oBSG made and he doesn't constantly bitch about nBSG.

Richard Hatch is a stand-up guy- he understood what RDM was trying to do with his remake and even though it wasn't what he wanted to do, he was happy to be a part of it, and his character on the show is immensely popular.

tim31 · Post by **tim31** » 2006-12-05 08:07am

Hell yeah, I'd totally buy a car off Tom Zarek

I wasn't aware Dirk Benedict's feelings on the show, and I'm a bit disappointed in him, but to each their own.

As for claims that it's all too dark and depressing, I offer some of my favorite moments in spoilerized form:

*"I'm putting the fleet back together." Bill puts aside his differences for the sake of the 'family'
*the Blackbird's dedication- "Laura" being unveiled
*"You're not going to believe what I'm looking at!" - Lee in Pegasus; absolutely no foreshadowing in that scene which made it thoroughly enjoyable for me
*"I care about you! I always have." My favorite deckhand, Cally, proving that males in any culture are usually oblivious to female admirers.

CaptJodan · Post by **CaptJodan** » 2006-12-05 10:49am

Vympel wrote: It's not true that all the men in the show are weak and all the women are strong.

If he really said this, then it does sound like sour grapes. In the Mini Adama beats a man with a flashlight rather violently, and he only gets more badass as time goes on. Tigh isn't much far behind and makes some tough choices. The last thing I would call Tigh is weak or soft. The fact that they have their own inbuilt character flaws and aren't perfect 1950s-1980s era moral highground wind up dolls is a good thing.

However, they do seem to push those boundries at times with all the angstiness.

To call all females strong and all males weak is the height of idiocy, though.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2006-12-05 11:02am

Vympel wrote:Richard Hatch is a stand-up guy- he understood what RDM was trying to do with his remake

"Remake" my ass. The only thing remotely connecting the new show to the old show is the name. What Moore did was write his own scifi show, and then sold it buy plugging in names of characters and the most basic premise of the old show. If he had any balls, he wouldn't have butchered the old show and sold his story on its own merits.

Yup, the "new" Starbuck, who can outfly, outshoot, outgamble, oufight, outsmoke, and outfuck any man on the show. Now that's "re-imagining", folks.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2006-12-05 01:21pm

Stormbringer wrote:I would make a distinction between them having luck and the show being rather pessimistic. In general the show has shown that things will go badly, people will fail, and things will generally just get worse.

That's really not the impression I get when I watch the show. Yeah, sometimes things look bleak and desperate, but do you honestly expect sunshine and puppies every day from a single Battlestar against the entire Cylon fleet? Goddamn near every battle with the Cylons has been a Colonial victory, what the hell more do you want? A big party after the battle - oh, wait, we even got that after they took out the Cylon base in Hand of God.

Things just get worse? They found Kobol! They found a map which is leading them to Earth! They found the fucking Pegasus! And with that, they were able to build replacement Vipers! What the fuck more do you want?

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2006-12-05 01:37pm

Lord Poe wrote:

First, yeah, god forbid any woman be a better hotshot ace than a dude. You're right that it's ridiculous she's seemingly a superhero, but it would be just as ridiculous if Starbuck were still a man.

Second, okay, I understand that it sucks that campy space opera, as a genre, is pretty much dead. No, I'm not being sarcastic, I think it sucks too. But look. It's been three years now, and neo-Battlestar Galactica has proven itself as quality television... and you're still spewing the same bile that was being tossed around before the miniseries had aired. (A miniseries which some of us still don't care for all that much, mind.)

Okay, you're bitter at neoBSG for dashing any hopes of a 'true remake'. We get that. But if you're going to hold onto your grudge, could you at least watch a few episodes so that you have some fresh criticisms to offer? Or hell, crib them from someone else who hates the show but watches it anyway, I don't care. But three years later and you're still whining about 'Starbuck should be a man'? Let it go, man. None of us care any more that Starbuck turned into a woman.

Sam Or I · Post by **Sam Or I** » 2006-12-05 02:06pm

Uraniun235 wrote: First, yeah, god forbid any woman be a better hotshot ace than a dude. You're right that it's ridiculous she's seemingly a superhero, but it would be just as ridiculous if Starbuck were still a man.

I don't care if she is a woman, a man or transgender. The in unversing wanking is what I hate. I love the show, but every time it shows Starbuck being the best at another activity it pisses me off. (This is the reason I was turned off from Harry Potter, the first movie was my first introduction, and the in universe wank for Harry Potter was sickening.) I can accept the best pilot, and even being good tactician, but the best sniper, and pyramid player. Its just too much wankage. They should really leave some of these awesome skills to secondary characters.

petesampras · Post by **petesampras** » 2006-12-05 02:22pm

Uraniun235 wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:I would make a distinction between them having luck and the show being rather pessimistic. In general the show has shown that things will go badly, people will fail, and things will generally just get worse.
That's really not the impression I get when I watch the show. Yeah, sometimes things look bleak and desperate, but do you honestly expect sunshine and puppies every day from a single Battlestar against the entire Cylon fleet? Goddamn near every battle with the Cylons has been a Colonial victory, what the hell more do you want? A big party after the battle - oh, wait, we even got that after they took out the Cylon base in Hand of God.

Things just get worse? They found Kobol! They found a map which is leading them to Earth! They found the fucking Pegasus! And with that, they were able to build replacement Vipers! What the fuck more do you want?

I tell you something else that pissed me off. The decision to sacrifice the Pegasus for the Galactica. How does that make any sense at all?

Cao Cao · Post by **Cao Cao** » 2006-12-05 02:29pm

petesampras wrote:I tell you something else that pissed me off. The decision to sacrifice the Pegasus for the Galactica. How does that make any sense at all?

Galactica's character shield, obviously.

Really, Adama should've transferred his command to the Pegasus the moment she lost her CO. Let Lee command the Bucket.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2006-12-05 04:18pm

Uraniun235 wrote:First, yeah, god forbid any woman be a better hotshot ace than a dude.

Because, as we know, this is the norm in post-Xena Warrior Princess entertainment. Its just not the norm in the span of human civilization.

You're right that it's ridiculous she's seemingly a superhero, but it would be just as ridiculous if Starbuck were still a man.

Stupid, but not as ridiculous. Show me one woman on the WNBA that can hold a candle to an NBA player, for instance.

Second, okay, I understand that it sucks that campy space opera, as a genre, is pretty much dead. No, I'm not being sarcastic, I think it sucks too. But look. It's been three years now, and neo-Battlestar Galactica has proven itself as quality television... and you're still spewing the same bile that was being tossed around before the miniseries had aired. (A miniseries which some of us still don't care for all that much, mind.)

Yes, absofuckinlutely. "neo-Battlestar Galactica" shouldn't share the name of the old show if sets out to change every damned thing that MADE IT Battlestar Galactica. If this new show is so much better, then why can't it stand on its own two feet instead of shiting on the original show that many people loved?

Star Wars is a silly, campy space opera too. You think I wouldn't be "spewing the same bile" if Moore decided to "re-imagine" it, and make Han Solo female, and hire Marcy Darcy from "Married With Children" to play "her"?

Then, Moore would get rid of all those "silly" space opera trappings, and "re-imagine" Star Wars to take place in a trailer park in Iowa instead of a galaxy far, far away. The Millennium Falcon would be an 18 wheeler, and Luke and Ben hire Han to rescue Luke's sister from the Dallas compound of an evil oil baron.

But see, since it would be a hard hitting adult drama, named "Star Wars", I'd have no call to cry bullshit.

Okay, you're bitter at neoBSG for dashing any hopes of a 'true remake'. We get that. But if you're going to hold onto your grudge, could you at least watch a few episodes so that you have some fresh criticisms to offer?

Why would I waste my time watching a piece of trash that shit on the original concept, for the sake of selling itself under a brand name because the producers didn't think it would hold up under its own original concept?

People think that they need to "fix" the campy shows of the past with todays XTREEEEEMEEE concepts. Hey fuckheads, we KNOW the old shows were campy. I keep read these stupid-ass concepts for a "Six Million Dollar Man" remake, like having six "One Million Dollar Men" running around an airport and getting blown up, and Chris Rock as a baggage attendant getting caught in the middle of the blast. So the new, improved comedy concept was to put Chris Rock back together from the pieces of the six bionic men.

Yep, those "re-imaginings" are about as wonderful as the untalented fuckheads who write the worst of fan-fiction.

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2006-12-05 04:24pm

petesampras wrote:I tell you something else that pissed me off. The decision to sacrifice the Pegasus for the Galactica. How does that make any sense at all?

It's not like the characters in-universe decided a ship would be destroyed, and then decided it would be Pegasus.

Cao Cao wrote:Really, Adama should've transferred his command to the Pegasus the moment she lost her CO. Let Lee command the Bucket.

Yeah, because the crew of the Pegasus were big fans of Adama right after Cain died.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2006-12-05 06:19pm

Lord Poe wrote:
Uraniun235 wrote:First, yeah, god forbid any woman be a better hotshot ace than a dude.
Because, as we know, this is the norm in post-Xena Warrior Princess entertainment. Its just not the norm in the span of human civilization.

You're right that it's ridiculous she's seemingly a superhero, but it would be just as ridiculous if Starbuck were still a man.

Stupid, but not as ridiculous. Show me one woman on the WNBA that can hold a candle to an NBA player, for instance.

Right, because no woman could possibly fly anything as well as a man - is that what you're saying?

If you had dinged them on her ability to fight men and super-strong Cylons one-on-one I might have agreed with you, but --