Debunking Meditation (crackpot friend)

Namarie · Post by **Namarie** » 2006-12-05 09:09pm

Im actually posting this for a few people in my house who have been in an argument with their friend. This friend claims meditation is capable of many things outside of scientific know how, he states things such as producing heat, better healing, stress remover better than resting and various other things he seems to constantly dodge between rather than backing a specific claim long enough for it to be directly rebutted.

We're having trouble finding good first hand data directly debunking this, or clarifying meditation with current biological understanding. It seems most information on meditation is done by BSers, which makes it hard to prove anything.

Our overall opinion is that meditation not capable of anything more than simply resting. We've found lots of people citing David Holmes as having done research that agrees with our opinion, but we can't find anything first hand from him. Anything you can add with regards to meditation or directions to good sources. Anything covering meditation all the way to alternative medicine such as acupuncture and how it is infact a load of bovine dung itself.

The annoying part is it feels like the burden of proof is on us, because of his inability to argue logically. While in normal circumstances we wouldn't care until they proved it, we feel the need to educate our close friend, or else we wouldn't be very good friends.

Namarie · Post by **Namarie** » 2006-12-05 09:21pm

Just to add, so you can get a concept of how this man functions.

You seem to miss the point of why i'm trying to convince you about this a) i'm bored and cba to play wow and b) I find it fundamentally unacceptable that there is only science, and that we cannot achieve more with our bodies through different practices, or that science can prove everything about our bodies.

Lord Zentei · Post by **Lord Zentei** » 2006-12-05 09:25pm

I have no problem beleiving that meditation can act as a placebo, in which case it would produce a measurable effect. The placebo effect has to be taken into account when new drugs are tested, for example.

However, to state that it goes "beyond science" ... bah.

Anyway: you are the one asserting the negative. It is up to your friend to provide proof that meditation works beyond the placebo effect, it is not your job to debunk it.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2006-12-05 09:27pm

If meditation has a measurable effect on the world, science can hypothetically test it. Labelling something as "beyond science" just because you're a weirdassed new ager that wants to describe things like relaxation as something mystical is just lame.

Lord Zentei · Post by **Lord Zentei** » 2006-12-05 09:33pm

Namarie wrote:Just to add, so you can get a concept of how this man functions.

Hm, well let's see...

You seem to miss the point of why i'm trying to convince you about this a) i'm bored and cba to play wow and

English?

b) I find it fundamentally unacceptable that there is only science, and that we cannot achieve more with our bodies through different practices, or that science can prove everything about our bodies.

You find it unacceptable? Well, that's too bad. If you want to convince anyone that meditation offers something of merit, you must be able to demonstrate this. If you can demonstrate that there is a statistically significant effect and provide a mechanism for explaining it, you have a case, otherwise, you are just blowing hot air.

Of course, if you can demonstrate that there is a statistically significant effect and provide a mechanism for explaining it, what you have done is not prove that there is something "beyond science", you have simply expanded the frontiers of science to include something it did not include before.

No one claims that science knows everything. However: it is the most reliable way of knowing things, and more importantly, of testing the extent of what we know. It is a way of systemising our knowledge in a manner that is more precise, allowing us to have a quantitative idea of what we know and how well we know it, not -as you seem to think - a dogmatic beleif system that seeks to exclude certain ideas on principle.

Feil · Post by **Feil** » 2006-12-05 09:47pm

Given that meditation involves, generally, sitting or standing in a position that removes stress from joints and spine, as opposed to sitting or slouching in a chair, which screws with your shoulders, compresses your chest, and bends your spine, or lying down, which does all the same to a lesser extent while breathing slowly and regularly, it's really not at all surprising that it relieves stress. Given, also, that it involves free-flowing thought and demands that you do not concentrate, meditation, done properly, should for the same time free your mind from the troubles of the present.

If the meditation in question involves 'chi-channeling' exercises, all the beter--while the existence of some mystical energy field that surrounds us and penetrates us and binds the universe together is best left to a galaxy far far away, the meditator is moving in a non-repetative, circularish way that happens to work well for human joints, and brings the body through the full range of motion for the upper body in a low-stress manner, which is a good thing. That it also happens to produce a cool tingly sensation in your hands that you can play with and move around because of some phenominon associated with the way our nervous system is wired is a nice side-effect for the easily amused, like me

.

What is he talking about with regards to 'producing heat'? If you're feeling hot and sweaty after meditating, you're meditation isn't very meditative.

As far as the 'beyond science' bit goes, just about anything can produce results 'beyond science'. Up until a few years ago, the flight of the bumblebee was 'beyond science'; though I lack the knowledge to make a definitive statement, I would guess that the reason why we feel that nifty tingling effect is also 'beyond science', as is the reason why the 'energy channels' used in acupuncture and the like seem to work despite the fact that they obviously don't have physical existence. Of course, this doesn't require any sort of magic; all it requires is that (gasp!) we don't know everything about how the human body works yet.

SyntaxVorlon · Post by **SyntaxVorlon** » 2006-12-05 10:19pm

Meditation is a technique that focuses the mind, removes us from ourselves partially and allows our brain to relax with all the having to work on being who we are.

Some people even claim that it allows us access to the subconscious and they may be correct. But our minds do not have root access to our hardware, even when meditating. We can just hack a pointer or two here and there and tweak a few things.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2006-12-05 10:31pm

Meditation, at least the way I was taught to do it, truly is great for reducing stress.

It's a relaxation technique, nothing more, nothing less.

Ariphaos · Post by **Ariphaos** » 2006-12-06 12:39am

Rye wrote:If meditation has a measurable effect on the world, science can hypothetically test it. Labelling something as "beyond science" just because you're a weirdassed new ager that wants to describe things like relaxation as something mystical is just lame.

Where it does, it's called biofeedback. Not all of the techniques it teaches would be considered meditation, though. You can have some control over body temperature and heart rate, as well as an excellent repertoire of simple relaxation techniques. More advanced methods actually have people adjusting brain activity... I never got that far with it. Just temperature sensors on my fingers and toes and a strap to monitor my heart rate.

You can replace certain functions of sleep with meditation through what I'm assuming to be a cross between the placebo effect and tapping portions of your subconscious... REM while you're awake with your eyes open hurts.

I tried a long time to actually have it replace sleep... never succeeded, I could make my eyes 'awake', my muscles 'relaxed and awake'... but something was always wrong. In the end though, I do think I slept better for it, despite my silliness in trying to fight it.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-12-06 01:17am

I find it amusing when people think that mild changes in the behaviour of the human body somehow represent disproof of science.

For example, I can totally believe that meditation can speed healing. So can laughter or the presence of a dog, believe it or not. But this doesn't mean that something "outside science" has been discovered; it only means that the body is affected by your mood, which is hardly a shock since it is well known that stress can make you sick.

The part about creating heat is even funnier; perhaps this person does not realize that the body naturally generates heat all the time. I can show him a well-known technique for increasing heart rate and body heat generation among males: show them porno. Does this mean that porno is a mystical gateway to supernatural powers? Nope.

Perhaps this loon could explain precisely which law of physics is being broken by meditation.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2006-12-06 01:21am

You seem to miss the point of why i'm trying to convince you about this a) i'm bored and cba to play wow and b) I find it fundamentally unacceptable that there is only science, and that we cannot achieve more with our bodies through different practices, or that science can prove everything about our bodies.

[/quote]
What a moron. Even if something "magical" were discovered, it would be further investigated and become <drum roll please> SCIENCE.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-12-06 01:36am

There are two categories of anti-science crackpot:

1) The kind that think astounding supernatural things happen all the time, but conveniently find excuses not to present real evidence of them.

2) The kind that interpret mundane events or facts as disproof of science because they're so fucking stupid that they don't know any better.

This guy chose door #2.

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2006-12-06 06:25am

There was a study dealing with different mental states--I think we brought it up in the Speaking in Tounges part. Where there are these two parts of the brain--one turns up the other turns off--and they're opposites in the crazyass tounges and meditative states. The ability to get into a really potent meditative state does have incredibly strange effects, but it's all measurable and entirely scientific. You can do wierd crap with the right states of mind, but really what this guy needs to know is that this isn't OUTSIDE of science, it's just not inside of the research base yet. Just because something hasn't been rigorously researched does not mean it's hocus pocus. I've seen my Kung Fu teachers do some pretty amazing stuff, but it doesn't come from the Pure Wishes of Children.

Darth Judas · Post by **Darth Judas** » 2006-12-06 07:41am

The mind is capable of a lot of "miracles." For the most part, we cannot understand them. But just because we cannot understand them does not mean that they are "beyond science."

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-12-07 09:18am

One way to illustrate the absurdity of the "if we don't understand it, it's proof of the supernatural" logic is to point out that by this logic, unpredictable behaviour of computer software is also proof of the supernatural.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2006-12-07 09:25am

Darth Wong wrote:One way to illustrate the absurdity of the "if we don't understand it, it's proof of the supernatural" logic is to point out that by this logic, unpredictable behaviour of computer software is also proof of the supernatural.

Damn I cannot claim the bluescreen of death as mystical event of my computer being angry at me.

As for the OP, it's not your burden to point out that stress relief, producing heat(Guess what we do), and better healing(because a body at rest and less stress will obviously aggrivate the body) are mystical bullshit.

He sounds like he watched one too many episode of David Carradine and thought he learned the secret tricks of Kung Fu.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2006-12-07 10:54am

The body is capable of alot of things we don't understand. One of them is bio-feedback, where a person hooked up to a brain-wave monitor can concentrate and change their own brain-wave patterns. A number detecting certain types of waves can be made to move up or down, even though there's no real way conscious thought should be able to change those particular patterns. I wish I could remember more about that study.