What if Anakin just before epII replaced luke from epIV on?

[LordShaithis]

Now that I think about it, maybe Anakin could pull it off. Or at least not nut up and fall to the dark side again.

Remember, at this point Padme is just a delusional crush he hasn't seen in ten years, not his wife. Palpatine was his friend, but anyone can take a look at the Empire and go "Yeah, he wasn't a nice guy after all." And as pointed out elsewhere, Anakin and Vader will in all likelihood react to each other with loathing and horror.

[Sam Or I]

I would find the first Lightsabre duel the intresting one. I do not think Obi Won would sacrafice himself here. With an apprentice as skilled as Anikin, and Obi Wans experience, I say Vader goes down here.

It would be really intresting if both Vader and Obi died at this point, leaving Anikin on his own. Who knows what would happen.

[Cao Cao]

Vader is far more skilled than Anakin at that point, plus in any fight he would be driven by the absolute blinding hatred he has for what he was. I'm confident that he'd destroy Anakin.

[LordShaithis]

Vader's also middle-aged, half made up of prosthetics, and couldn't whip a barely trained sub-padawan Luke without taking a hit to the arm.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Well, the first actual duel with Vader had Obi-Wan possessing Luke and laying the smack down on Vader, culminating in Vader needing another replacement hand. Then there's ESB where Luke couldn't cut through Vader's armor when he scored a hit. I can't remember any other duels with Vader up until RotJ, and we know what happened. So the score is win by Deus Ex Machina, Loss, and Win; my personal belief is that the use of Deus Ex's are an admission of defeat.

[Cao Cao]

Vader's also middle-aged,

So is Sidious.
Then there's Yoda..

half made up of prosthetics,

You mean advanced cybernetic components.

and couldn't whip a barely trained sub-padawan Luke without taking a hit to the arm.

Because the fact that Vader didn't want to kill Luke had nothing to do with that!

[Master_Baerne]

Seriously, Vader is much stronger than General Schatten makes him out to be. It says in Shadows of the Empire that he could, for short periods of time, use his hatred to sustain his half/dead, burned to a crisp, lightsaber-cut body. Defeating Luke before ROTJ was not difficult, and was only made to seem so because he was trying not to kill him.

[Master_Baerne]

EDIT: The hatred-sustained annecdote was meant to highlight the power of hate. Thus, Vader would have little trouble killing Anakin, whom he despises more than anything in the galaxy.

[Sam Or I]

Yes, vader could defeat Anikin alone, and vader could defeat elder Obi Wan alone, but both combined? I doubt that he could take them both on, well that is if Anikin does not get arrogant like he did with Dooku. Even then Obi Wan is alot more expierinced at this point. It would be an intresting battle none the less.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Seriously, Vader is much stronger than General Schatten makes him out to be. It says in Shadows of the Empire that he could, for short periods of time, use his hatred to sustain his half/dead, burned to a crisp, lightsaber-cut body. Defeating Luke before ROTJ was not difficult, and was only made to seem so because he was trying not to kill him.

How did I make Vader out to be weak? Vader schooled Luke and it my belief Palpatine was using a form of Battle Meditation to increase Anakins power in the fight with Dooku and Luke's in his fight against Vader.

[Master_Baerne]

O General Schatten, I have made a mistake. I meant LordShaithis. Please, forgive me.

[LordShaithis]

Was it Lucas who said Anakin had the potential to be twice as powerful Sidious, but instead ended up only about 80% as powerful as Sidious after being diced and grilled?

Anyway, the only thing that might sink Ep2 Anakin against Vader would be inexperience. A Clone Wars-era Anakin rapes Vader sideways. A guy in his forties just does not whip a duplicate of himself in his prime, even leaving aside any Force-weakening due to cybernetics.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Actually, I believe Lucas said he would have become three times as strong as Palpatine, had he not recieved the injuries (Mental and Physical) from Mustafar.

[Cao Cao]

I've never heard Lucas say that but even so, it's just Anakin-wank.
Anakin had raw power but was undisciplined and overconfident. Vader has that raw power plus discipline plus more skill plus a seething self-hatred that fuels his powers.
Certainly Vader would've been held back for a time by his injuries and his mental scarring. But by ANH Vader is a powerhouse.
Why doesn't he overthrow Sidious then? Because of his self-loathing he doesn't see any point - not until Luke appears. That's when he actually has something to care about again.

[LordShaithis]

It's Vader-wank to think a middle-aged man with a history of massive injury is going to best his twentysomething pre-injury doppleganger in personal combat.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Nope... my bad it was twice as powerful, I think the statement can be found in the RotS Commentaries, however Wookiepedia has the quote on their Anakin Skywalker page.

[Cao Cao]

It's Vader-wank to think a middle-aged man with a history of massive injury is going to best his twentysomething pre-injury doppleganger in personal combat.

Since when has age of all things impeded a Force user?
Or did I just imagine Palpatine making shish-kebabs out of 3 Jedi Masters?
And his injuries? Is he a cripple in a wheelchair? No. He's a cyborg.
And yes, he is going to best his younger, overconfident, unskilled Padawan self. This is after all the same Padawan who lost a hand to Dooku.

[LordShaithis]

Since when has age of all things impeded a Force user?

The fact that some Force-users remain powerful in their elderly years does not mean age is irrelevant. Or do you seriously think that ANH Obi-Wan has no disadvantage in comparison to his RotS self?

Or did I just imagine Palpatine making shish-kebabs out of 3 Jedi Masters?

See above.

And his injuries? Is he a cripple in a wheelchair? No. He's a cyborg.

He's also visibly stiffer and slower than his youthful self, and Lucas has referred to the OT saber dueling as "a half-trained boy, an old man, and a cripple".

And yes, he is going to best his younger, overconfident, unskilled Padawan self. This is after all the same Padawan who lost a hand to Dooku.

No, in the post you felt compelled to object to, I was referring to Anakin of the Clone Wars era.

Really, Lucas has made it pretty clear that he considered Vader a sad old wreck of wasted potential. It's only fanwankers and maybe EU writers who want to make him an invincible god because they think he's cool.

[Cao Cao]

The fact that some Force-users remain powerful in their elderly years does not mean age is irrelevant. Or do you seriously think that ANH Obi-Wan has no disadvantage in comparison to his RotS self?

Obi-Wan spent years as a hermit on Tatooine presumably not training his skills and powers.

He's also visibly stiffer and slower than his youthful self, and Lucas has referred to the OT saber dueling as "a half-trained boy, an old man, and a cripple".

Lucas also says that Stormtroopers inherit the bonk-your-head-on-bulkheads gene from Jango. I don't take much stock in what he says when the visuals show a force to be reckoned with in TESB and RotJ.

No, in the post you felt compelled to object to, I was referring to Anakin of the Clone Wars era.

And that Anakin is still overconfident and makes stupid mistakes and is not as disciplined or skilled as Vader.

Really, Lucas has made it pretty clear that he considered Vader a sad old wreck of wasted potential. It's only fanwankers and maybe EU writers who want to make him an invincible god because they think he's cool.

A sad wreck of wasted potential does not instill fear in millions and personally hunt down and exterminate Jedi.

[LordShaithis]

Obi-Wan spent years as a hermit on Tatooine presumably not training his skills and powers.

Regardless, all you have to support this idiotic "age is utterly irrelevant to combat among Force-users" notion is the fact that the two most powerful Force-users in the galaxy remained formidable in their elderly years.

You don't even have anything to compare them to, no idea how much of a shitkicker Yoda might have been back when he wasn't using a portion of his Force ability to enhance the performance of a nearly millenia-old body.

Really, how about a fat and out of shape Jedi? Or a Jedi wearing wrist and ankle weights into battle? To dismiss age as irrelevant is to claim that physical capability is irrelevant to Force-user combat.

Lucas also says that Stormtroopers inherit the bonk-your-head-on-bulkheads gene from Jango. I don't take much stock in what he says when the visuals show a force to be reckoned with in TESB and RotJ.

He's George fucking Lucas, so too bad. Also, the OT movies show a guy visibly slower than his younger self, who takes a substantial amount of time to vanquish the aged Obi-Wan you just derided in your last post, only defeating him after he essentially gives up. Later he proceeds to put on a competent but not terribly impressive performance in outclassing a barely-trained Luke, and is eventually defeated soundly once Luke has trained further.

If Vader of that era were more than a shadow of Anakin in his prime, old gray Ben would have been unceremoniously murdered, and a Jedi of Luke's meager training wouldn't have touched him.

[Cao Cao]

Regardless, all you have to support this idiotic "age is utterly irrelevant to combat among Force-users" notion is the fact that the two most powerful Force-users in the galaxy remained formidable in their elderly years.

You don't even have anything to compare them to, no idea how much of a shitkicker Yoda might have been back when he wasn't using a portion of his Force ability to enhance the performance of a nearly millenia-old body.

Really, how about a fat and out of shape Jedi? Or a Jedi wearing wrist and ankle weights into battle? To dismiss age as irrelevant is to claim that physical capability is irrelevant to Force-user combat.

What I'm saying is age is not a defining factor. You cannot simply dismiss Vader because he's middle-aged no matter how much you may want to.

He's George fucking Lucas, so too bad.

Sorry, but visuals and plot override offhand comments. Even George Lucas' offhand comments.

Also, the OT movies show a guy visibly slower than his younger self,

Because he's not doing goddamn somersaults all the time?
Being batshit fast didn't help Darth Maul now, did it.

who takes a substantial amount of time to vanquish the aged Obi-Wan you just derided in your last post, only defeating him after he essentially gives up.

Just ignore the fact that Vader wanted to talk-down Obi-Wan, to let him know just who was the master now. He wouldn't have been able to do that if he went in and decapitated him.

Later he proceeds to put on a competent but not terribly impressive performance in outclassing a barely-trained Luke, and is eventually defeated soundly once Luke has trained further.

If Vader of that era were more than a shadow of Anakin in his prime, old gray Ben would have been unceremoniously murdered, and a Jedi of Luke's meager training wouldn't have touched him.

Did the fact that in both fights, Vader had no intentions of killing Luke completely escape you?

[LordShaithis]

What I'm saying is age is not a defining factor. You cannot simply dismiss Vader because he's middle-aged no matter how much you may want to.

Against someone else, there might be wiggle-room based on whether the opponent was good enough to beat Anakin/Vader of any era. But not against a younger version of himself. George Foreman beat a lot of younger asses well into middle age, but throw him in with a 25 year old version of himself, and he'd get murdered.

Sorry, but visuals and plot override offhand comments. Even George Lucas' offhand comments.

Except you don't have visuals, all you have is the Vaderwanker's List of Reasons Darth Probably Wasn't Trying(tm).

Because he's not doing goddamn somersaults all the time?
Being batshit fast didn't help Darth Maul now, did it.

No, because he's just visibly slower in all his movements, because both he and the actor playing him are buckled into a big funny suit of armor. You dumb fuck.

And Darth Maul being fast did help him to overwhelm and kill a middle-aged Jedi Master, before being aced by his youthful apprentice, remember? Thanks for bringing that up.

Just ignore the fact that Vader wanted to talk-down Obi-Wan, to let him know just who was the master now. He wouldn't have been able to do that if he went in and decapitated him.

The fact that he spoke during the fight does NOT automatically mean that talking was the entire point, and that he wasn't even seriously trying to win.

Did the fact that in both fights, Vader had no intentions of killing Luke completely escape you?

Not wanting to kill Luke does not mean letting Luke beat the shit out of him.

[Sam Or I]

And Darth Maul being fast did help him to overwhelm and kill a middle-aged Jedi Master, before being aced by his youthful apprentice, remember? Thanks for bringing that up.

didnn't the novelazation actually say something about the age of Qui Gon being one of the reasons for his defeat?

[Cao Cao]

Against someone else, there might be wiggle-room based on whether the opponent was good enough to beat Anakin/Vader of any era. But not against a younger version of himself. George Foreman beat a lot of younger asses well into middle age, but throw him in with a 25 year old version of himself, and he'd get murdered.

His younger, overconfident self who got soundly beaten and mutilated by someone who was wiser.. older..

Except you don't have visuals, all you have is the Vaderwanker's List of Reasons Darth Probably Wasn't Trying(tm).

I'm stating the bleedin' obvious.

No, because he's just visibly slower in all his movements, because both he and the actor playing him are buckled into a big funny suit of armor. You dumb fuck.

Yes and Anthony Daniels in his plastic suit can't actually walk up stairs. But C3-P0 can. Thanks for being unbelievably ignorant.

And Darth Maul being fast did help him to overwhelm and kill a middle-aged Jedi Master, before being aced by his youthful apprentice, remember? Thanks for bringing that up.

When did I say age = win? That's right. I didn't.
I said age is not a defining factor. Especially given the fact that as I said, the young verile Anakin you're wanking over was destroyed utterly by Obi-Wan Kenobi

The fact that he spoke during the fight does NOT automatically mean that talking was the entire point, and that he wasn't even seriously trying to win.

Given the fact that he shows far greater prowess against Luke then yes I do conclude that.

Not wanting to kill Luke does not mean letting Luke beat the shit out of him.

It does if he's taken off guard. He was taunting Luke, trying to bring out his anger as Sidious commanded. Luke exploded and went on a murder rampage, Vader was blatantly not prepared for that.

[LordShaithis]

His younger, overconfident self who got soundly beaten and mutilated by someone who was wiser.. older..

He was beaten in an epic fight by an Obi-Wan still at or very near his physical prime, an Obi-Wan who would have ran over ANH Vader like a speedbump.

Yes and Anthony Daniels in his plastic suit can't actually walk up stairs. But C3-P0 can. Thanks for being unbelievably ignorant.

Watching OT Vader walk around, move, and fight, he's visibly slower and less manuverable than PT Anakin. This is just blatantly obvious, and to be expected.

When did I say age = win? That's right. I didn't.
I said age is not a defining factor. Especially given the fact that as I said, the young verile Anakin you're wanking over was destroyed utterly by Obi-Wan Kenobi

Go watch the RotS duel and the ANH duel, and tell me the ANH combatants are anywhere near their RotS levels of capability.

Given the fact that he shows far greater prowess against Luke then yes I do conclude that.

He bumbles around a bit and takes a shot to the arm before disarming an ill-trained Luke in ESB, and then is soundly thrashed by him in RotJ.

It does if he's taken off guard. He was taunting Luke, trying to bring out his anger as Sidious commanded. Luke exploded and went on a murder rampage, Vader was blatantly not prepared for that.

Because he was older and slower. Either that or he was being a dumbass, and wasn't prepared for the reaction he was trying to cause. Does anyone really see PT Anakin being so utterly overwhelmed by Luke's little "NOOO!" frenzy?