Luke vs ISD

SWPIGWANG · Post by **SWPIGWANG** » 2006-11-30 05:53pm

maybe this should go in Starwars.......ah whatever

Luke with space suit starts out on the surface of an ISD, outside the firing arcs of its guns. The ISD's shields are down and have no Tie fighters/support craft, but do have its full crew and ground combat equippment. The ISD is not equipped for space-boarding action and has stormies at best. (no space troopers, darktroopers and stuff)

The ISD starts out unaware of luke's presence, but is on high alert.

What happens?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2006-11-30 06:00pm

Off to PSW...and ummm.

The ISD scans, find Luke who's trying his damndedest to cut into the ISD, and they ask high command what their orders are for this particular individual.

Cao Cao · Post by **Cao Cao** » 2006-11-30 06:03pm

They get irritated and jump to hyperspace. Which surely can't be good for a human outside the ship.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2006-11-30 06:04pm

I'd like to know what would possibly set up this scenario in the first place?

And if a dozen clones or droids can take out a typical Jedi, what will thousands of stormies do to Luke?

Also care to explain why Luke wouldn't head straight for the docking bay or the bridge window?

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2006-11-30 06:13pm

Cao Cao wrote:They get irritated and jump to hyperspace. Which surely can't be good for a human outside the ship.

In the "Adventures of Lando Calrissian", I'm pretty sure someone was on the exterior of the Falcon inside a "tenuous protected area" in the shield during a hyperjump. If this wasn't standard, it wouldn't be possible for Mynocks to travel from system-to-system on starship hulls.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2006-11-30 07:49pm

This is a stupid scenario. No, shields, no TIEs, no shuttles, etc.

Maybe the author of this idiotic scenario should have added a dinner table with a waiter compliment and an executive key to the bathroom waiting for Luke on the ISD's surface?

Winston Blake · Post by **Winston Blake** » 2006-12-01 02:14am

Darth Servo wrote:I'd like to know what would possibly set up this scenario in the first place?

Hmmm, perhaps Luke was trying to fly into the docking bay in a stolen TIE (with the pilot's spacesuit), but just before getting in he got discovered. He then had to bail before the TIE got blown to smithereens. Hence, on the ISD's surface with a spacesuit.

IIRC there was a boarding action in the oh-so-canonical Clone Wars cartoons, where a CIS ship's turrets were cutting down clonetroopers advancing across its own surface and their Jedi commander cut a hole in the armour, dropped in and fought his way to the bridge to take control.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2006-12-01 08:10am

Which era Luke?

In Dark Empire, Luke was shoving over AT-AT's without effort
In the Thrawn Duology, Luke was muzzling on how to disable an enemy dreadnaught using just Telekinesis (he was considering crushing it's cannons and engines I think)

Luke's power levels are insane at times.

If he can get into the ship somehow, he'll do fine.

However, if he can't get in, he's boned.

SWPIGWANG · Post by **SWPIGWANG** » 2006-12-01 07:14pm

Well, this is actually created in response to the MC vs Luke thread, which someone said that 1v1 debates involving Jedi revolves around only TK and is really no fun to debate. Sneaking onto a warship is quite different.

So here is something different. Note because the ISD is unaware of luke at start, it pretty much won't do anything at the start. This is sort of an requirement for it to be less then a instant frag sistuation. (eg. ISD fire guns at its own hull and see luke vape with a nice dent in the neutronium armor) No support craft because thats too easy.

As for the era of luke, maybe we can find the point where luke can succeed in this mission?

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-12-02 10:53am

The shields on the Providence-class Separatist ship that Saesee Tiin and his clone battalion boarded were probably already down.. it was already after a considerable period of time into the battle, with Venators in close proximity slugging it out with the Separatist ships.

Additionally, the hull seemed to be quite thin at the point where Tiin improvised his entry into the ship; there may have been only a few particular spots on the ship where this sort of attack could be mounted. Of course, Luke would probably know an Imperator's layout as well as Saesee knew a Providence destroyer's layout.

Still, there's the aforementioned issue of shielding. Is the ISD in the same situation as the Separatist ship, with weakened/depleted shielding? Otherwise, I doubt Luke would be able to do anything to the ISD's shielded hull. As we know from the Theed Reactor shaft in TPM, lightsabers interact rather disappointingly with strong shielding. Skywalker would have to find some other way to get in, if that's what he wanted.

Darth Servo wrote:And if a dozen clones or droids can take out a typical Jedi, what will thousands of stormies do to Luke?

Your point is valid, but Luke isn't a typical Jedi. He and his father have the greatest potential of any Force user to have existed. Of course, this is just potential. Thus, as WPIGWANG stated, it's very much a question of what point of Luke's Jedi development this scenario takes place in.
Also note, in the cramped confines of a ship, he wouldn't have to face many stormies at once. Obi-Wan and Anakin's attack on the Invisible Hand would be a better analog rather than the Geonosis arena (even though the stalwart Republic heroes survived both situations).

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2006-12-06 09:01am

Kyle Katarn did not have any problem inside the Doomgiver. Nor Quigon and Obiwan inside the Trade Fed ship. The commander of the Trade Fed ship was scared to death despite being on a transport carrying an entire army of battledroids. It seems Jedi are extremely dangerous in the close quarter confines of a starship. Without the ability bring heavy weaponry to bear upon them and plenty of hiding places they are nearly unstoppable. Once a Jedi gets aboard a ship you may as well write it off as a loss.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2006-12-06 10:43am

Sarevok wrote:Kyle Katarn did not have any problem inside the Doomgiver. Nor Quigon and Obiwan inside the Trade Fed ship. The commander of the Trade Fed ship was scared to death despite being on a transport carrying an entire army of battledroids. It seems Jedi are extremely dangerous in the close quarter confines of a starship. Without the ability bring heavy weaponry to bear upon them and plenty of hiding places they are nearly unstoppable. Once a Jedi gets aboard a ship you may as well write it off as a loss.

Right, because Katarn events weren't made to be him winning, him avoiding coridors and trying to find the oddest accesses. In fact Katarn's adventures look like they wanted him somewhere given they didn't pull out a fucking E-Web.

And Qui-Gon and Obi Wan had no trouble? You were watching TPM when they encountered a single pair of Droidekas?

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2006-12-06 12:02pm

He walks in, they pop him in a rayshield, surround him with clonies armed with E-webs, turn off the rayshield, zap him.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2006-12-06 12:17pm

We should remember that (even if we ignore God knows how many plot devices) Kyle Katarn was a covert opertive (and a good one too) even before he was a jedi, something Luke was not (Luke was a fighter pilot) also I know only 2 incidents were Katarn destroyed a warship without at least Fighter support (the Arc Hammer and some unnamed Dreanaught at Byss (after the planet had been destroyed)). As for the incident in Clone Wars said jedi master was not unsupported (clones jumped in after him).

Darth Judas · Post by **Darth Judas** » 2006-12-06 01:53pm

So, Luke is crawling around on the outer hull of an ISD like he's Species 8472...

Um, no.

For one, a flight suit would only give him several minutes of air. It would take a minute or two to get from wherever to the ISD hull. And then he either had to use his lightsaber to cut a hole through the hull (and resist the force of decompression), or find an airlock to somehow open and enter. No matter what, he'd most likely asphyxiate before he got inside.

Even if he got inside, he'd be a single person against tens of thousands of ISD crewmembers. His lightsaber would protect him only so much.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-12-06 02:38pm

Sarevok wrote:Kyle Katarn did not have any problem inside the Doomgiver.

First, anything we see during the gameplay is already suspect and probably non-canon. Second of all, Katarn couldn't take out the Doomgiver, he only managed to sabatoge its shields so that starfighters could destroy the ship.

Nor Quigon and Obiwan inside the Trade Fed ship.

You mean how they were forced to run and hide?

The commander of the Trade Fed ship was scared to death despite being on a transport carrying an entire army of battledroids.

He was cowardly, and the Jedi were pretty close to him already.

Darth Judas · Post by **Darth Judas** » 2006-12-06 02:48pm

Jim Raynor wrote:
Sarevok wrote:Kyle Katarn did not have any problem inside the Doomgiver.
First, anything we see during the gameplay is already suspect and probably non-canon.

Aren't game cut-scenes considered canon, so long as they occur before the point that the player can choose whether to stick to the Light Side or go to the Dark Side? I thought they were...

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2006-12-06 05:34pm

Darth Judas wrote:
Jim Raynor wrote:
Sarevok wrote:Kyle Katarn did not have any problem inside the Doomgiver.
First, anything we see during the gameplay is already suspect and probably non-canon.
Aren't game cut-scenes considered canon, so long as they occur before the point that the player can choose whether to stick to the Light Side or go to the Dark Side? I thought they were...

The games, while technically canon, are for all practical purposes below the bottom of the totem pole where canonicity is concerned.. Cutscenes or otherwise. And for a good reason.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2006-12-06 07:17pm

Darth Judas wrote:So, Luke is crawling around on the outer hull of an ISD like he's Species 8472...

Um, no.

For one, a flight suit would only give him several minutes of air. It would take a minute or two to get from wherever to the ISD hull. And then he either had to use his lightsaber to cut a hole through the hull (and resist the force of decompression), or find an airlock to somehow open and enter. No matter what, he'd most likely asphyxiate before he got inside.

Even if he got inside, he'd be a single person against tens of thousands of ISD crewmembers. His lightsaber would protect him only so much.

IIRC, Star Wars flight suits are capable of holding several hours, at least, of oxygen, as seen in the early NJO (a Jedi strike team clings to the hull of a Vong ship for a fairly long period of time, certainly more than a few minutes).

Batman wrote:The games, while technically canon, are for all practical purposes below the bottom of the totem pole where canonicity is concerned.. Cutscenes or otherwise. And for a good reason.

Nevertheless, they are canon; one simply has to distinguish game mechanics from actual story line. Did Kyle Katarn manage to inflitrate the Doomgiver and knock out its shields? Yes. Did he do so by lugging around a garrison's load of weaponry, taking on squads of dozens of stormtroopers at a time? Probably not. More likely than not, the actual version of such events involved a lot more sneaking, mind tricks, and diversions than one typically uses in the games (although I am reminded of the point at which in-game you can vent a docking bay into space, thereby removing quite a few obstacles to your progress).

Darth Judas · Post by **Darth Judas** » 2006-12-06 09:40pm

Batman wrote:
Darth Judas wrote:
Jim Raynor wrote: First, anything we see during the gameplay is already suspect and probably non-canon.
Aren't game cut-scenes considered canon, so long as they occur before the point that the player can choose whether to stick to the Light Side or go to the Dark Side? I thought they were...
The games, while technically canon, are for all practical purposes below the bottom of the totem pole where canonicity is concerned.. Cutscenes or otherwise. And for a good reason.

It's still canon, however. Unless, of course, a higher source of canon contradicts it.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2006-12-07 12:01am

Darth Judas wrote:
Batman wrote:
Darth Judas wrote: Aren't game cut-scenes considered canon, so long as they occur before the point that the player can choose whether to stick to the Light Side or go to the Dark Side? I thought they were...
The games, while technically canon, are for all practical purposes below the bottom of the totem pole where canonicity is concerned.. Cutscenes or otherwise. And for a good reason.
It's still canon, however. Unless, of course, a higher source of canon contradicts it.

You do grasp that we have seen that Jedi not blowing thousands of troops like the thought of what supposedly happened on the Doomgiver to say that the Doomgiver's scene are likely huge exagerrations, or aberrations?

If not, you're fucking dumber then Saervok for saying the Doomgiver is a good indication of a Jedi's ability to raid an ISD.

Darth Judas · Post by **Darth Judas** » 2006-12-07 12:04am

Ghost Rider wrote:
Darth Judas wrote:
Batman wrote: The games, while technically canon, are for all practical purposes below the bottom of the totem pole where canonicity is concerned.. Cutscenes or otherwise. And for a good reason.
It's still canon, however. Unless, of course, a higher source of canon contradicts it.
You do grasp that we have seen that Jedi not blowing thousands of troops like the thought of what supposedly happened on the Doomgiver to say that the Doomgiver's scene are likely huge exagerrations, or aberrations?

If not, you're fucking dumber then Saervok for saying the Doomgiver is a good indication of a Jedi's ability to raid an ISD.

I'm not familiar with the Doomgiver, so I cannot say one way or the other.

But what does that have to do with my point that the events seen in game cut-scenes are canon unless contradicted by a higher source of canon?

Post by **Surlethe** » 2006-12-07 12:42am

You know, a better indication of what happens when a Jedi raids a ship might be Anakin and Obi-Wan's raid on the Invisible Hand: lured into a trap. If Grievous hadn't wanted to bring them to the bridge to gloat, he could have had both Anakin and Obi-Wan killed inside the ray shield

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2006-12-07 12:46am

Darth Judas wrote:
I'm not familiar with the Doomgiver, so I cannot say one way or the other.

But what does that have to do with my point that the events seen in game cut-scenes are canon unless contradicted by a higher source of canon?

You can read correct?

It affirms your general point while showing you that we have direct contradictory evidence of said scene?

Or were you just babbling to affirm something most people on this site do acknowledge.

Darth Judas · Post by **Darth Judas** » 2006-12-07 01:19am

Ghost Rider wrote:
Darth Judas wrote:
I'm not familiar with the Doomgiver, so I cannot say one way or the other.

But what does that have to do with my point that the events seen in game cut-scenes are canon unless contradicted by a higher source of canon?
You can read correct?

It affirms your general point while showing you that we have direct contradictory evidence of said scene?

Or were you just babbling to affirm something most people on this site do acknowledge.

If there's direct contradictory evidence, why not say so to begin with? Like I said, game cut-scenes are canon unless contradicted by higher canon sources. Also, I stated that I wasn't familiar with the Doomgiver, so I wouldn't know where in canon it fits, or if there was higher-canon contradictions. Not to mention that the part of this topic that I participated in did not mention any cntradictory evidence.

If there is (contradictory canon evidence), just say so. (I would also ask for sources, so I can look it up when I can.) I will accept it, unless I find evidence that contradicts what you say.