Republic economy and Watto refusing to take creds...

[Ghost Rider]

Being the butt-end of the galaxy is no excuse to reject foreign currency out of hand rather than merely charging a hefty premium, especially if it's stable currency.

It seems more likely to me that the Republic currency is in really bad shape, which wouldn't be surprising if the Republic is in a state of turmoil and possible impending civil war. If outer regions are already so lawless that private corporations are running around holding entire planets hostage without provoking an immediate military response, it seems almost a foregone conclusion that investors would have serious doubts about the ability of the central government to make good on its financial obligations.

The only problem I have with that is the Kaminos accepted the Credits and then were promised more of the same, and they are literally in the same case. They had no Republic affliation, yet they had no problem or disagreements with such.

I have no answer for why the no military response for the Outer Rim, since the Empire did in fact have a military presence there.

[Ghost Rider]

He was trying to force to make Watto to accept them, in fact they demonstrate him trying to do exactly that.

But he only tried to use the force after he offered Republic credits normally once and failed. I suppose he was probably just being hopeful that he wouldnt have to control someones mind if he didnt need to.

Most likely. Qui-Gon had a foregone conclusion that Watto would take them. I still find that Qui-Gon was a bartering idiot and Watto figured he could get more out of the dumb outworlder.

I assumed the majority of those people in the crowd lived on Tatooine. I suppose in the Star Wars universe, with such widespread rapid space travel, getting a transport to Tattoine to see a race is little more than getting a train to see a football match in a near by city.

The Boonta Eve was considered a large enough event that the Trade Federation regarded it as the only thing that made Tattoine viable beyond "dustball". It is thought of one of the big galaxy level sports.

Note, that slaves were still on the planet and in fact they mention several times that it was not in the jurisdiction of the Republic.

I thought the Jedi considered themselves seperate and above the Republics sphere of influence and to be a sort of galaxy wide police force beyind any politica body with authority to enact justice where ever they pleased, obviously they would rely on local judicial authority to allow them to operate inside their area but on Tattoine there is no local judical authority, excet the Hutts who are hardly a lega form of government.

Admittedly the Jedi cant be expected to right all wrongs across the whole galaxy but they should have the moral and legal right to for example to emancipate the slaves on Tattoine if they so chose.

That is an odd spot because they do show they will go above and beyond the republic, but then they at the same hand will go "it's not in Republic space" as an excuse otherwise.

While Qui-Gon was not there specifically for slaves, it's interesting that none of the Jedi and returned under any level, and the Republic did pretty much ignore the place.

[Darth Wong]

Being the butt-end of the galaxy is no excuse to reject foreign currency out of hand rather than merely charging a hefty premium, especially if it's stable currency.

It seems more likely to me that the Republic currency is in really bad shape, which wouldn't be surprising if the Republic is in a state of turmoil and possible impending civil war. If outer regions are already so lawless that private corporations are running around holding entire planets hostage without provoking an immediate military response, it seems almost a foregone conclusion that investors would have serious doubts about the ability of the central government to make good on its financial obligations.

The only problem I have with that is the Kaminos accepted the Credits and then were promised more of the same, and they are literally in the same case. They had no Republic affliation, yet they had no problem or disagreements with such.

The Kaminoans also seem to be isolationists who don't bother keeping up on current events; that was made pretty obvious in AOTC. They might have not realized how severe the Republic's recent problems were. The fact that the Republic was hemorrhaging outer territories to secessionists and losing the ability to control the behaviour of major corporations or even maintain basic interstellar law and order might have come as a shock to them.

Another possibility is that they simply charged a huge premium. When faced with an unstable currency, one vendor might simply prefer not to deal with it while another one might choose to take the risk but charge a premium for it.

I have no answer for why the no military response for the Outer Rim, since the Empire did in fact have a military presence there.

Paralyzed, weak, and ineffective central government.

[K. A. Pital]

The only problem I have with that is the Kaminos accepted the Credits and then were promised more of the same, and they are literally in the same case. They had no Republic affliation, yet they had no problem or disagreements with such.

As far as I understand, Kamino is a high-profile cloning planet which devotes resources to (presumably) mass military cloning as they have facilities for it everywhere. Military contracts are a realm of their own. They're large, and it may be that those credits were supported by something else. For example, imagine this: Zimbabwe or other 3W shithole pays to, say, Russia for military assets, but it's currency is still not convertable.
What does the 3W pay for it with? Credit payment will be a formation of Republic debt to Kamino. Then they're often forced to sell out their natural resources, etc. to the military contractor.

Either that or what DW suggested

I have no answer for why the no military response for the Outer Rim, since the Empire did in fact have a military presence there.

Because teh Republic central government is weak and corrupt, and it's army likewise weak and unable to maintain presence there? I mean, Tatooine was brought under Imperial control during Empire days, even if a minimal garrison is all there was.

[Ghost Rider]

The only problem I have with that is the Kaminos accepted the Credits and then were promised more of the same, and they are literally in the same case. They had no Republic affliation, yet they had no problem or disagreements with such.

The Kaminoans also seem to be isolationists who don't bother keeping up on current events; that was made pretty obvious in AOTC. They might have not realized how severe the Republic's recent problems were. The fact that the Republic was hemorrhaging outer territories to secessionists and losing the ability to control the behaviour of major corporations or even maintain basic interstellar law and order might have come as a shock to them.

Another possibility is that they simply charged a huge premium. When faced with an unstable currency, one vendor might simply prefer not to deal with it while another one might choose to take the risk but charge a premium for it.

That is possible...since we have no number nor any idea of the contract initially between Sifo Dias and them.

My bit was that as a counter...they were willing to accept the initial credits ten years(so TPM time) and then the Republic continue funding the Clone army. But this point does result in some of a dead end since we have no idea whatsoever of what amounts were are talking about.

Paralyzed, weak, and ineffective central government.

To that one, true. They did amply demonstrate this.

My bit is that while Watto did not accept them, I just find it odd to hinge economics on him. I found it more akin to someone not accepting Visa rather then a sign of the economy given both his status(a junk dealer with noted illegal activities). I felt he wanted something more or that he didn't want the credits traced to him, and that was the only way the Republic currency was handled, but given the events, it is very likely that Watto didn't care for them because their value in terms of what he could do was too low, thus demonstrating a lack of trust on a local level...be what it may.

[Ghost Rider]

The only problem I have with that is the Kaminos accepted the Credits and then were promised more of the same, and they are literally in the same case. They had no Republic affliation, yet they had no problem or disagreements with such.

As far as I understand, Kamino is a high-profile cloning planet which devotes resources to (presumably) mass military cloning as they have facilities for it everywhere. Military contracts are a realm of their own. They're large, and it may be that those credits were supported by something else. For example, imagine this: Zimbabwe or other 3W shithole pays to, say, Russia for military assets, but it's currency is still not convertable.
What does the 3W pay for it with? Credit payment will be a formation of Republic debt to Kamino. Then they're often forced to sell out their natural resources, etc. to the military contractor.

Either that or what DW suggested

But DW demonstrated something you didn't.

The Jedi have no vast resources of other avenues of anything but reliance on the Republic. Only Sifo Dyas and Palpatine after Dooku kills Dyas and tells him of the plan. In one of the novels there is a speech that in fact that Dyas worked alone. So unless there is evidence that there is some vast wealth connected to that master, I will take the hefty premium. He could be taking from a depository of credits but other wealth such as resources? Given the Jedi lack of any belongings(Dooku acquiring his wealth AFTER leaving the order is one of the few primary evidence of such).

This explaination fails to cover the Jedi lack of other avenues of wealth.

[K. A. Pital]

Given the Jedi lack of any belongings

If personally Jedi are wealthless, Dias in no fucking way could've ordered a Galactic Army! He was a Jedi Master not a Bill Gates type tycoon.

So something there suggests that Dias was not acting alone, he probably had access to accounts of Sidious, who indeed could dispose really vast resources and also harder assets in fact Sidious was made Chancellor already by that point, and some budget machinations so that hte wealth ends up in SyfoDias hands is necessary for the thing to work.

We're talking of ordering a Galactic Army here. Whoever made the speech about Dias working alone is wrong.

[Ghost Rider]

Given the Jedi lack of any belongings

If personally Jedi are wealthless, Dias in no fucking way could've ordered a Galactic Army! He was a Jedi Master not a Bill Gates type tycoon.

So something there suggests that Dias was not acting alone, he probably had access to accounts of Sidious, who indeed could dispose really vast resources and also harder assets in fact Sidious was made Chancellor already by that point, and some budget machinations so that hte wealth ends up in SyfoDias hands is necessary for the thing to work.

We're talking of ordering a Galactic Army here. Whoever made the speech about Dias working alone is wrong.

They are suppiled certain funds by the Republic, and the fucking movie notes the lack of wealth the Jedi have all around. Dooku only recieved his vast wealth AFTER he left. Why make note of this event if the Jedi are allowed access to their wealth.

Palpatine even notes he did not know until Dooku did. He simply used it to his advantage. And the person who said Dyas is working alone was Darth Tyrannus, the same person who insured the Jedi would not find out about, and murdered Dyas.

So far you are the one making unsupported suppositions. This is why Mike's statement worked. He used the evidence there was to supply a different conclusion then mine. You are fucking making a conclusion but supporting it with your suppositions, that does not match the evidence we have seen.

So provide your evidence.

[K. A. Pital]

They are suppiled certain funds by the Republic

If they're supplied funds by the Republic, how then is it "Dias got the army on his own" when in fact he used funds that he didn't own?

And the person who said Dyas is working alone was Darth Tyrannus, the same person who insured the Jedi would not find out about, and murdered Dyas.

Okay. This means then: Dias had shitloads of Republic resources at his disposal even if he didn't own them. Which means that high-rank Jedi Masters have Republic funds to use, even if they're dirt poor. This would also explain how Qui-Gon had enough money to assume he could buy a hyperdrive.

That would explain:
a) Dias acting alone
b) Dias wielding massive resource needed to buy Army of a galactic scale

[Ghost Rider]

They are suppiled certain funds by the Republic

If they're supplied funds by the Republic, how then is it "Dias got the army on his own" when in fact he used funds that he didn't own?

You are going to provide evidence that there was otherwise correct?

Oh wait, you haven't done shit one, thus you didn't fucking understand that Mike explaination was "They charged a higher premium" fits the evidence, while your is requires extraoridinary evidence you've yet to provide.

So put up or shut up.

Show evidence of your assertion.

[

And the person who said Dyas is working alone was Darth Tyrannus, the same person who insured the Jedi would not find out about, and murdered Dyas.

Okay. This means then: Dias had shitloads of Republic resources at his disposal even if he didn't own them. Which means that high-rank Jedi Masters have Republic funds to use, even if they're dirt poor. This would also explain how Qui-Gon had enough money to assume he could buy a hyperdrive.

That would explain:
a) Dias acting alone
b) Dias wielding massive resource needed to buy Army of a galactic scale

Given they only mention a credit account given by the Senate and have never mentioned any other sort of resource gathering, you are literally pulling shit out of your ass.

So like I said, provide fucking evidence that Dyas had magical access to resources and the authority to use said resources.

[K. A. Pital]

Ghost Rider
I'm not "pulling" anything, just trying to understand where from Syfo took the funds. Not how he made the Kaminoans take the money (I agree Mike's explanation is correct), to which the answer is "they charged a higher premium".

The mere fact of him having a Senate credit means he wasn't "alone" but received Republic funds to buy the Army. Not personal wealth. That's all I was saying.

Also, this looks really strange. If this all was covert and no one knew about this, it must be that no records of this credit going to Syfo Dias remained. That's strange. What did the Senate give him credit for? Surely not buying the Army, otherwise there'd be no covert construction and surprise.

[Ghost Rider]

The only thing the evidence asserts is that it was from an account the Jedi Council can access that is an open check of Republic credits.

They do not go into why no one noticed, all we know is Palpatine killed him, saw that he bought a large source of clone stock and then had Tyrannus supply the stock(Jango came after Dyas death) and had the entire thing erased from both the Senate and Jedi records. We also note that Dooku claimed he was buying clone stock, Palpatine used this through Tyrannus to make it specifically into an army.

So what can we get from the evidence?

Dyas bought a large amount of Kamino time to make clones(they are fuzzy on what was Dyas original intentions...perhaps it was an army). Dooku joins Palpatine, divulges this after killing Dyas, to which Palpatine still wants the clones made but from the absolute best specimen Dooku can find. Palpatine also wants this particular event erased from both the jedi records and the Senate's as well. That in turn becomes the Clone Army.

[K. A. Pital]

Palpatine also wants this particular event erased from both the jedi records and the Senate's as well.

Okay, that explains my worries. I was thinking just how Dias could have this sum paid to Kamino and then go down totally unnoticed. Then it seems as I understand now, Sidious did play a part (after Dias died), he erased all evidence of financial transactions by Dias from Sentate records while Dooku cleaned up Jedi archives on Dias... that makes perfect sense. Also makes perfect sense that Dias had access to Jedi Council credit line. Easy 1 - 2 - 3, use Jedi credit line, buy clone army, get financial records erased, voila.

[An Ancient]

The Jedi don't necessarily have to have used the Republic to pay for things. It is established that while the Jedi as individuals do not have wealth, the Jedi Order has an absolute ton of money/tradeable valuables, some of which, for example, was drawn upon by Obi-Wan on the way of Sekot.

[Tychu]

But, for example dollars and euros are very desirable among countries like Egypt because the US/EU currency is much more stable than the local ones. For an outer rim merchant to not accept the main Republic currency is a very bad sign for the Rep economy as a hole.

.

the fact that the Hutts control Tatooine has no concern for you?
During the Prequel Trilogy Tatooine is part of the Hutt Space Sector.
The Hutts dont care about anybody else, especially non-hutts, so why the hell would they trade with the Galactic Republic. they wouldnt and therefore Hutt Space doesnt exept Republic Credits

Plus (it was in the later X-Wing novels by Stackpole, after the Rebellion takes over corucsant) That when one of the Imperial spies is caught and relesed, she asks for Imperial Credits and not New Republic ones, she is arrested for possesion of Imperial currency on a Republic world.
Star Wars politics may only deal with their currencies on their worlds

[Cykeisme]

Regarding the value of Republic credits when stuck on Tatooine..

Some have posited Qui-Gon should have been able to exchange the Republic credits for something of local value, but likely at a vastly engorged exchange rate.

If this is true, how would Watto have exchanged the credits, should he have accepted them? Most likely he would also have had to exchange them at the same poor rate.. which is why he would not accept them.


All the scene tells us is that the Hutts have very complete control over the economy, trade, and people on their worlds.

[K. A. Pital]

Hutts are crimelords. All normal crimelords operate in the most secure, stable and reliable currency possible. The world's crimelords, terrorist groups, smugglers use dollars.

The hutts are just dumb as wood if they "banned" Republic credits without having serious reason to do so (like the Repub economy being in crisis).

[nightmare]

If this is true, how would Watto have exchanged the credits, should he have accepted them? Most likely he would also have had to exchange them at the same poor rate.. which is why he would not accept them.

Watto could simply have overcharged Qui-Gon to cover his own expenses. This explanation does not seem sufficient.

All the scene tells us is that the Hutts have very complete control over the economy, trade, and people on their worlds.

Wupiupi coins of Tatooine from The Phantom Menace, during the period when Hutt syndicates dominated the planet and controlled its economy by issuing their own hard currency in opposition to the credits of the Old Republic.

I don't know what Saxton based this passage on, but I bet he's got a good reason for it.

[vakundok]

When the exchange of a considerable amount (it would be cheeper to buy a new ship) of foreign currency leads directly to the local crime lord whose attention you do not want to catch you will be unwilling to accept it (at least in that amount).
It seems that the amount was completely forgotten in this topic. For the 20000 credit (daktari?) to have real value for Watto would require either:
- serious business between him and someone from the Republic,
- or a working / accessible bank system.

In most shops in our country USD or even EUR to a lesser degree would be refused. (I am not talking about credit cards.) It is not a sign that either the euro or the dollar would collapse in the near future. Individuals can exchange your money, but it would be rather hard to exchange the price of a yacht. For that, there are the banks, but Watto did not have that option.

[K. A. Pital]

Effectively this means that there are no exchange agents on Tatooine, whether banks or black-market. This is peculiar. Even if you couldn't go and pay with 20,000 creds in a shop, you could exchange this in a bank or at a local smuggler.

Besides, Watto runs a god damn shop with ship equipment that costs as much! He has the rarest hyperdrives for Naboo-built vessels, surely he must be dealing with the Republic on a daily basis. So Watto has business with the Republic space or smugglers operating in Republic space, and Tatooine most likely has exchange spots.

[vakundok]

Effectively this means that there are no exchange agents on Tatooine, whether banks or black-market. This is peculiar.

No. Absolutely not. It means that there are ways to exchange the money, but the higher the amount the closer the business will get to the hutts. And it will cost you money and not only from this exchange, but your whole business will be monitored after this.

Even if you couldn't go and pay with 20,000 creds in a shop, you could exchange this in a bank or at a local smuggler.

You could, and I think Watto could do it as well. The question is about its "side effect".

Besides, Watto runs a god damn shop with ship equipment that costs as much! He has the rarest hyperdrives for Naboo-built vessels, surely he must be dealing with the Republic on a daily basis. So Watto has business with the Republic space or smugglers operating in Republic space, and Tatooine most likely has exchange spots.

I had the impression that Watto runs a Jawa style shop (collect garbage, repair and resell it). Actually, in the novelisation he sent out Anakin to make a deal with the jawas. I have no clues about him having contact with the large starship manufacturers. You may find nearly all parts of a [insert a car type here] on a junkyard, but it does not mean it would be an official retailer. And again, I do not say that it is not possible to exchange money, I say it is best avoided.

[K. A. Pital]

It means that there are ways to exchange the money, but the higher the amount the closer the business will get to the hutts. And it will cost you money and not only from this exchange, but your whole business will be monitored after this.

Watto trades very expensive Republic tech. No way this poses any sort of problem for him.

I had the impression that Watto runs a Jawa style shop (collect garbage, repair and resell it).

Having - exclusively - expensive hyperdrives for Naboo tech yachts tells that Watto doesn't trade solely junk. And if he has such unique and expensive complect parts, for starships, he must be dealing with Republic.

You may find nearly all parts of a [insert a car type here] on a junkyard, but it does not mean it would be an official retailer.

If it was that obvious and not exclusive, that be a point. However, Watto specifically noted that it's useless to try to work with other retailers, and it seemed that Qui-Gon knew from the start that only Watto could have such exclusive parts. Pretty damning. Watto wasn't a mere scavenger, and Nubian hyperdrives weren't simply laying on junkyards en masse for the taking.

[Cykeisme]

If this is true, how would Watto have exchanged the credits, should he have accepted them? Most likely he would also have had to exchange them at the same poor rate.. which is why he would not accept them.

Watto could simply have overcharged Qui-Gon to cover his own expenses. This explanation does not seem sufficient.

I'm not sure why I did not think of that. You're right: if the exchange rate was exhorbitant on Tatooine, Watto could simply have asked for a higher price.

Is this not also the case, even if the Republic was in a state of crisis? He could simply have charged a premium, as it is posited the Kaminoans might have demanded in a similar scenario. Instead, he outright refused any amount of Republic credits, neglecting to even bother with a counter-offer. A Republic credit clearly has no value to him, not just a low or volatile one.

There must be a more complex reason.

Having - exclusively - expensive hyperdrives for Naboo tech yachts tells that Watto doesn't trade solely junk. And if he has such unique and expensive complect parts, for starships, he must be dealing with Republic.

Perhaps Watto just so happens to have obtained and repaired the Nubian hyperdrive from one particular ship that just so happens to be there? Perhaps some other parts of the ship(sublights, repulsors etc) broke down on Tatooine, and was instead sold, and then disassembled and the parts sold in turn. Perhaps it crashed, after which the wreck was stripped for parts (by Jaws?) and sold.
He's not a dealer of replacement Republic parts; he's simply in possession of one unit. It doesn't mean he regularly deals with the Republic.. or at all.

[K. A. Pital]

Cykeisme
Note what I said about Qui-Gon. He clearly knows about Watto's shop (he doesn't even bother visiting anyone else), and he clearly knows that Watto is the only one who can sell such exclusive parts, when Watto says that they won't find another hyperdrive in all of Tatooine.

He's not a dealer of replacement Republic parts; he's simply in possession of one unit. It doesn't mean he regularly deals with the Republic.. or at all.

How did Qui-Gon:
a) single him out from all junk merchants of Tatooine
b) was already aware that Watto was the only one who could possibly have this part

[vakundok]

Watto trades very expensive Republic tech. No way this poses any sort of problem for him.

As it does not. There was no problem selling it for local currency. The problem was with selling expensive Republic tech for foreign currency.

I had the impression that Watto runs a Jawa style shop (collect garbage, repair and resell it).

Having - exclusively - expensive hyperdrives for Naboo tech yachts tells that Watto doesn't trade solely junk.

You make an assumption about the republic connection based on the fact that only Watto had the part. As already mentioned, there is no proof that the part was a new one and not a scavenged or broken down and repaired one, so your proposal cannot be taken as the only right conclusion.

You may find nearly all parts of a [insert a car type here] on a junkyard, but it does not mean it would be an official retailer.

If it was that obvious and not exclusive, that be a point. However, Watto specifically noted that it's useless to try to work with other retailers, and it seemed that Qui-Gon knew from the start that only Watto could have such exclusive parts. Pretty damning. Watto wasn't a mere scavenger, and Nubian hyperdrives weren't simply laying on junkyards en masse for the taking.

According to the novelisation, Qui Gon just chose a smaller junkyard (Watto's) to try at first.
What you wrote tells us exactly nothing. It is natural that scavenged parts from a rare product line ends up at focus points (or a sinlge point in this case). Why? Because every new part makes it closer to a working machine which normally has a higher value than the separated parts.

However, I have checked he novelisation and it seems to state that Watto did not accept the republic credits because of information. Someone with an English one may quote Watto's last sentence (to Anakin) when they first leave his shop. This supports that the republic credit had already began to be unstable.
EDIT: Not the last one, but the one before it, sorry.