Illusion of Reality and the Matrix

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2002-12-24 05:55pm

So far this is how this thread has progressed:

Me: In the matrix you can do whatever you like, the robots don't care as long as you don't try to destroy the matrix. This is supported by the movie in which the entirety of the world with all its thinkers and radicals who talk about true reality and such and the search for freedom are not prevented from doing so. Reality is a waste in which you have few freedoms because theres nowhere to have those freedoms.

Many others: But you don't have freedom of thought in the matrix and I'm not going to back it up! ::puts fingers in ears:: LALALALALA I CANT HEAR YOU

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2002-12-26 01:37pm

I'd chose to stay in the Matrix. Reality is what you make it and you can damn sure make more outta todays world than you can in a real world with no sun and millions of Machines trying to kill ya. As Cypher said to Agent Smith "Ignorance is bliss".

Guardsman Bass · Post by **Guardsman Bass** » 2002-12-26 01:39pm

Its all a choice whether you would have freedom or happiness. Notice the number of kids manipulating reality; not a lot. Those who think that they could just sit in the matrix and be a tin god are deluding themselves, because the matrix machines are the ultimate masters. Besides, have any of you noticed the similarity between this and Brave New World? These people are happy slaves, going about their lives in servitude without ever knowing it. This difference is:would you care as long as you had happiness(which by the way IS NOT GUARANTEED IN THE MATRIX)?

As for freedom of mind, tell that to the people who are coopted to be agents. Think about if you knew that at any time the controlling program could seize your "body" and "mind" and replace it with the agent program, possibly taking you to your death? Or worse, if you didn't? The ultimate reality is, in the Matrix, no FREEDOM WHATSOEVER exists, and has ever existed, mentally or physically. amen

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-12-26 01:48pm

Summary: given that the creator of the thread RENEGED on his original conception(note he said if you KNEW you were in the Matrix...not blissfully unaware...you knew you were some battery hook up, would you rather have freedom or servitude).

Thus his bullshit of us not backing it up is almost as good as his denial that his own statement is that one places you into total servidtude another gives you freedom.

Just for the record it was also his first bloody sentence as well

If you were in the Matrix, and assuming you knew that you were, would you want to be freed from it?

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2002-12-27 02:14am

kojikun wrote:So far this is how this thread has progressed:

Me: In the matrix you can do whatever you like, the robots don't care as long as you don't try to destroy the matrix. This is supported by the movie in which the entirety of the world with all its thinkers and radicals who talk about true reality and such and the search for freedom are not prevented from doing so. Reality is a waste in which you have few freedoms because theres nowhere to have those freedoms.

Many others: But you don't have freedom of thought in the matrix and I'm not going to back it up! ::puts fingers in ears:: LALALALALA I CANT HEAR YOU

If my fingers are in my ears, yours are in another hole slightly lower. Plenty of people gave good reasons to back up their opinions that YOU asked for.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-27 02:47am

In the Matrix, your thoughts are directly controlled by the software if they so desire. Remember how Cypher's memories were going to be "fixed"? How can you have freedom of thought if the system can override those thoughts at a whim? How can you have freedom of anything when the system can execute you at a whim? The Matrix is the very definition of extreme totalitarianism.

Kojikun is basically saying that absolute totalitarian rule is wonderful as long as you don't get in the dictator's way.

Cthulhu-chan · Post by **Cthulhu-chan** » 2002-12-28 05:42am

Meh, that scene was purely dialog. If it were that easy, why even bother negotiating with Neo? *zap* "Hey, Agent Neo, we need you for a mole operation, 'kay?" For that matter, when they tried to rip the info about Zion out of Morpheus' mind it seemed little different from physical and psychological torture.

Furthermore, the matrix apparently only mucks about with it's denizens in response to invasions by outside threats. Not so different from how a country would respond to a force willing and able to destroy it. Quite frankly, the only ones residing within the matrix that would have anything to fear are those with plans that would result in a large number of casualties ('cause brownouts are bad, m'kay?), and you couldn't rationally think that intervention at that point would be a bad thing.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2002-12-29 03:43am

--Kojikun is basically saying that absolute totalitarian rule is wonderful as long as you don't get in the dictator's way.--

Well considering the dictator doesn't care what you do .. Its not even totalitarian. They don't inhibit your actions inside the matrix, which is indistinguishable from reality. No thought police, nothing.

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2002-12-29 04:00am

Cthulhu-chan wrote:Meh, that scene was purely dialog. If it were that easy, why even bother negotiating with Neo? *zap* "Hey, Agent Neo, we need you for a mole operation, 'kay?"

So.. if they say they can do something they can't?

And Neo couldn't give them the information they were asking for because IIRC he hadn't gotten it yet. So they bugged him and were able to set things up so as far as he could tell the entire thing was a dream.

For that matter, when they tried to rip the info about Zion out of Morpheus' mind it seemed little different from physical and psychological torture.

Except Morpheus wasn't in a direct hook-up, and what we see is just the matrix interpretation, according to Tank they were hacking their way into his brain through whatever safeguards were hooked into the Neb.

Furthermore, the matrix apparently only mucks about with it's denizens in response to invasions by outside threats. Not so different from how a country would respond to a force willing and able to destroy it. Quite frankly, the only ones residing within the matrix that would have anything to fear are those with plans that would result in a large number of casualties ('cause brownouts are bad, m'kay?), and you couldn't rationally think that intervention at that point would be a bad thing.

Rather the agents move in to swiftly and brutally dispatch anyone who knows the dirty little secret that the world is a lie.

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One side note on the whole human energy thing is that Morpheus also mentioned the robots have fusion power as well.

As for the kids in the Oracle's apartment.. who says they're still directly hooked up to the matrix and not liberated?
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Personally if I knew the Matrix was a false reality I'd probably want to get out of it ASAP for the simple reason that since I know all of this I would in turn know that whatever freedom I may have in the matrix is ultimately only going to be as much as the machines are willing to give me. If through some chance I happen to slip under their radar and invent something for instance, and that invention would jeopardize their ability to maintain the illusion of the matrix the machines could easily erase the knowledge, or make me or anyone who's ever heard of it dissapear. I'm ultimately completely and utterly subject to the whims of another with no way of preventing that other from exercising their desires no matter the consequences to myself.

Cthulhu-chan · Post by **Cthulhu-chan** » 2002-12-29 04:42am

Actually, we know for a fact that those kids are a part of the matrix. The only way the folks from Zion can connect to the matrix is through a wireless connection. To do so, they must physically position themselves near a matrix facility. Also, every time they jack in, the matrix is aware of the intrusion, but the Zionists are able to cover their tracks long enough to (hopefully) accomplish what they want to do. However, Agents can eventually track down interlopers, and bots can track down the physical location as well.

The point is that while the matrix may have the means, the need or desire to directly interfere would be nearly non-existant except in extreme circumstances, like say a war. As for some random fucknut who knows the matrix's "dirty little secret", why would the matrix have to do a thing? Human society has a place for people who believe that the world around us is a lie and that we are nothing but batteries for super intelligent machines: It's called a loony bin.

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2002-12-29 04:51am

You're right a good chunk of the populace won't believe you.. but there's always that portion who will (as well evidenced by the fact that people keep taking that damn red pill)

Life in the Matrix is, as I said, totally dependant on what the machines are willing to let you have. If for some reason one decided to feel quirky and have your entire life collapse into ruin it would simply because they hold all the cards and as long as you're hooked up to them you're easily disposed of if you try to deal yourself in.

Cthulhu-chan · Post by **Cthulhu-chan** » 2002-12-29 05:13am

Except that the matrix is willing to let you have what ever you want. Remember, the first matrix was a paradise, but humanity wouldn't accept it. The matrix doesn't give a damn what you want, so long as you remain a part of it. Fact of the matter is, the matrix would more than likely let everyone run around with superpowers just so long as they don't try to kill each other left and right, don't try to destroy the matrix, and continue supplying that precious power.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-29 05:22am

You're assuming that Morpheus was correct when he described the Matrix's motivations. Since we know that:

1) The heat output of a human body can produce only a feeble amount of power (120 watts total output, of which you will get only a miniscule fraction).

2) A human body requires a complex stream of nutrients in order to live.

3) The computer system required to run this gigantic simulation must draw a lot of power in its own right

4) Nuclear fusion makes all of this unncessary

I find Morpheus' explanation unsatisfactory. The Matrix will waste energy and resources maintaining the humans rather than using them to generate net power. The Matrix's motivations must be something else which Morpheus hasn't thought of, since he's obviously too stupid to think of a plausible explanation on his own.

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2002-12-29 05:23am

The machines are only willing to accomodate that however as long as it is in their interests to do so. The entire reason they made he Matrix as it was was due to the simple fact that the human mind couldn't accept the idea of a perfect world as anything but a dream and kept trying to wake up. However the human mind continues to try and wake up from the forced dream of the Matrix though many of the people to whom this occurs don't realize it.

Ultimately with the current simulation you get the worst of it. You still have to work to get anything in life, yet at the same time all that work can be invalidated in an instant because the machines decided they liked it going differently. They may not go around changing things willy-nilly (the more often they do that the greater the chance someone'll notice after all) however in the end they will always have that power over their unwitting slaves.
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EDIT after seeing DW's post:

My personal view on the matter was that the nuclear fusion power they had pretty much covered their energy costs and that the entire idea of the Matrix, was a kind of revenge on the machine's part, enslaving their former masters without their knowledge in kind of a parody of the way humanity has used and controlled computers, etc. since before they became self-aware.

Cthulhu-chan · Post by **Cthulhu-chan** » 2002-12-29 01:04pm

T Sylas: You're just guessing at intent, now. Try to stick with the facts, or your argument doesn't hold any water. The fact of the matter is that the matrix would have little reason to interfere with its denizens since they are perfectly capable of policing themselves. I don't know where this idea that the matrix micromanages each individual came from, but the movie does NOT support this view. The only thing we are shown is that when it comes to outside invaders the matrix deals with it as swiftly and with as much finality as possible, while disturbing it's denizens as little as possible.

T Wong: I whole-heartedly agree. The official story is that the "fusion" being used is ignited via energies unique to humans (or at least living things), but this smacks of such bullshit that I really hope they state a different reason in the later movies.

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In response to Sylas' edit:

That would be a good theory, except it doesn't explain why the 1990's were picked. If I were designing a retributive enviroment, I would have used a perpetual depression era, or the dark ages. Instead, the machines pick one of the most prosperous periods in human history, after failing to create paradise for humanity. You got to fit the theory to the facts, it doesn't work the other way around.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-29 01:28pm

If the Matrix wanted to use humans for some physical purpose, it could simply keep them all in a coma, thus eliminating the entire need for this ridiculous virtual-reality simulation while still getting the same output from their bodies. Moreover, since this VR simulation leads so many people to die young (from starvation, war, disease, etc), it is hideously inefficient; surely they could quietly tweak the parameters to make its "batteries" live longer. Logically, it must have some need of their minds, not their bodies, unless it is mind-bogglingly stupid.

Therefore, I submit that a more plausible explanation (which I hope the filmmakers are smart enough to figure out) is that the Matrix needs their brains for a gigantic distributed-computing network. Perhaps the Matrix needs to be able to use their minds or it will lose its sentience, hence it becomes a survival imperative.

I think it would be a great plot, actually. If the Matrix needs to use human computing functions, it explains their need to keep most people moving through life without really thinking, without really questioning. They want you on autopilot, watching sitcoms, letting the talking heads define reality for you, working at a dead-end job, and leaving 98% of your brain idle. So the Matrix would fear:

A) people leaving the network and thus diminishing its resources
B) people starting to think or question more than usual or worse yet, incite others to do the same

Cthulhu-chan · Post by **Cthulhu-chan** » 2002-12-29 02:32pm

Which pretty much follows what I think. It was stated that the machines were sentient, but it seems that they are a bit lacking in the imaginative and/or creative aspect, as illustrated by the agents' ability to bend the rules of the matrix to their utmost while Neo was able to outright break the rules. I think the matrix is actually a creative think-tank, providing that spark of imagination and inspiration that straight forward analytical thought may otherwise overlook.

I don't think they would be using humans for standard computations, since it's pretty evident that the machines are pretty much superior in every way to a human brain, save for that marvelously irrational portion.

Moreover, since this VR simulation leads so many people to die young (from starvation, war, disease, etc), it is hideously inefficient

Deffinitely agree, though I bet wars are actually pacified before they can occur, since such a sudden loss of so many "batteries" would be unacceptable. The international climate is probably one of uneasy peace, like the cold war.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2002-12-29 03:38pm

I still find it humorous that some would volunteer to be hooked up to the Matrix thinking that if they were at a comfortable position in the world and their views jived with the machines, then all will be fine. Freedom of the mind as long as their mind set matches what the machines want you to think.

There are alot of senario's that would not be so blissfull. I'd rather fight against the machines in a blead dead world than be a homeless bum. But thats just me.

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2002-12-29 07:57pm

Cthulhu-chan wrote:T Sylas: You're just guessing at intent, now. Try to stick with the facts, or your argument doesn't hold any water. The fact of the matter is that the matrix would have little reason to interfere with its denizens since they are perfectly capable of policing themselves. I don't know where this idea that the matrix micromanages each individual came from, but the movie does NOT support this view. The only thing we are shown is that when it comes to outside invaders the matrix deals with it as swiftly and with as much finality as possible, while disturbing it's denizens as little as possible.

There's no need to micro-manage most individuals either. Neo was as far as most resistance leaders were concerned too old to even bother extracting, he wasn't in the usual target group, Morpheus outright said so (along with the fact that the machine would have killed him in all likelyhood if they knew what he was).

That would be a good theory, except it doesn't explain why the 1990's were picked. If I were designing a retributive enviroment, I would have used a perpetual depression era, or the dark ages. Instead, the machines pick one of the most prosperous periods in human history, after failing to create paradise for humanity. You got to fit the theory to the facts, it doesn't work the other way around.

And who says one extreme is any better than another? They tried creating a paradise and failed because the human mind wouldn't accept it, yet there's no garauntee that they wouldn't get the same result if they picked a period of complete misery, instead they go for the middle-ground.

The 90s also represents a pre-AI period they in all likelyhood had a significant amount of info on (what with everything getting computerized). And seeing as how the 90s was pre-AI that provides one more little safeguard.. takes a real nutter to rebel against something that supposedly doesn't exist yet.

Cthulhu-chan · Post by **Cthulhu-chan** » 2002-12-29 08:34pm

And who says one extreme is any better than another? They tried creating a paradise and failed because the human mind wouldn't accept it, yet there's no garauntee that they wouldn't get the same result if they picked a period of complete misery, instead they go for the middle-ground.

You failed to address the fact that thier first choice was to make a paradise for humanity. Hardly a standard reaction of the victorious to a fallen foe, especially when victory means you managed to survive thier last ditch attempt at xenocide.

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2002-12-29 10:44pm

Because they didn't understand us either. Paradise was in their opinion at the time something we'd never try and 'wake up' from.. however they were wrong.

Cthulhu-chan · Post by **Cthulhu-chan** » 2002-12-29 10:57pm

And again I ask, how does that fit in with your theory of the machines exacting retibution on humanity when humanity has no way of realizing it?

The answer, if you're wondering, is that it doesn't!

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2002-12-30 01:58am

The thing is they have us enslaved, and they know they have us enslaved. As things stand humans are going about their 'job' as happy little cogs totally unsuspecting.

And best of all humanity not only doesn't know they're enslaved, but our own species unwittingly helps enforce it for them.. nice bit of irony there eh?

Crazy_Vasey · Post by **Crazy_Vasey** » 2003-01-01 08:47pm

Cthulhu-chan wrote: Deffinitely agree, though I bet wars are actually pacified before they can occur, since such a sudden loss of so many "batteries" would be unacceptable. The international climate is probably one of uneasy peace, like the cold war.

Well...

*spoilers*

According to a spoiler I read from the next Matrix film humanity lives in a single huge city so there is no international climate. I cannot vouch for its accuracy though as I cannot remember where I read it.

Seggybop · Post by **Seggybop** » 2003-01-01 09:12pm

On the Matrix's official page, they've got a bunch of stories that contain a lot more information that you can use for this argument...
http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/r ... ndex2.html (use the menus on the bottom to see them all)
I've read all that they have right now, and I'm pretty sure that you DO have free will, but the machines can modify you if they see fit to, and in one of the stories they specifically mention using humans for distributed computing. Although that was only a guess from a character. Anyway, check it out.

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