I'm fairly certain I know what the answer is, but can anybody give any logical, in universe, reason why the crew of the Enterprise didn't replicate boarding pikes when they knew the borg had boarded the Enterprise? They're long (keeps vulnerable humans away from borg nanoprobes), sharp (will slide through armor), and the borg cannot adapt to sharp, cold steel (except in certain Trekkies Janeway masturbatory fantasies).
Just something I thought of about ten minutes ago.
Edit - if they can't replicate something that large or that quickly, why couldn't they go to the Enterprise metalshop and make long pointy metal sticks?
Question about Star Trek: First Contact
Moderator: Vympel
Question about Star Trek: First Contact
In Brazil they say that Pele was the best, but Garrincha was better
1) Out of habit, they don't think in terms of polearms; it's all about the phaser.
2) A standard replicator station isn't big enough to make a pole three meters or more in length.
3) They probably don't have a replicator pattern for such a thing, so they couldn't churn them out. They would need access to a machine shop to make a prototype, and those might well be in the engineering section, which was the first area captured.
2) A standard replicator station isn't big enough to make a pole three meters or more in length.
3) They probably don't have a replicator pattern for such a thing, so they couldn't churn them out. They would need access to a machine shop to make a prototype, and those might well be in the engineering section, which was the first area captured.
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-- The King of Swamp Castle, Monty Python and the Holy Grail
"Nothing of consequence happened today. " -- Diary of King George III, July 4, 1776
"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"
Well there's no argument, only speculation. Because I can't prove a negative, "Prove why Picard didn't use boarding pikes."
I can only guess. One idea is Picard couldn't, because the replicators were locked out. But ask yourself this: In all the other encounters with the Borg, even with the Hansens who studied the Borg for years, they never thought of using boarding pikes. So likely it has nothing to do with not being able to replicate boarding pikes and everything to do with being too stupid to think of melee weapons or projectile weapons. It probably has to do with a certain way of thinking, use high technology to solve all problems, and low technology solutions are automatically disregarded. We see this a little in our own society with the push for high-tech voting machines, computers in every classroom (why, when you can buy books and more teachers, arguably the quality of education hasn't gone up one iota since the digital revolution) etc. And one doctor fresh out of the academy didn't know what a splint was. It's probably a way of thinking that low technology solutions are primitive and therefore they're overlooked.
Of course the Trektard answer is this: they didn't use boarding pikes, so the Borg must be able to adapt to them (not necessarily through shield frequencies but adapt in any other way). Which is pretty stupid, because we see the Borg hurt by Worf. Trektards even extend this to bullets, even though we've seen the Borg hurt by Picard's tommy gun, inventing elaborate rationalizations why a real tommy gun wouldn't work but the holodeck one would.
As for replicator patterns, I say that's a cop out. Federation ships carry around large amounts of useless data for holodeck simulations, so they must have accurate patterns of how guns and knives work. All they have to do is look in their own history and see Jonathan Archer shooting a Borg with a 10 MJ phaser. One shot, but oh well, why can't they up the juice on their own phasers. However their overlooking of this makes sense if low tech means stupid tech to the average Federation yes man. Archer's phase pistols, projectile weapons, Quarks weapons, Cardassian low-tech disruptors are obviously worse, because they're low tech thinks the average Federation engineer, and by extension Starfleet officers.
I can only guess. One idea is Picard couldn't, because the replicators were locked out. But ask yourself this: In all the other encounters with the Borg, even with the Hansens who studied the Borg for years, they never thought of using boarding pikes. So likely it has nothing to do with not being able to replicate boarding pikes and everything to do with being too stupid to think of melee weapons or projectile weapons. It probably has to do with a certain way of thinking, use high technology to solve all problems, and low technology solutions are automatically disregarded. We see this a little in our own society with the push for high-tech voting machines, computers in every classroom (why, when you can buy books and more teachers, arguably the quality of education hasn't gone up one iota since the digital revolution) etc. And one doctor fresh out of the academy didn't know what a splint was. It's probably a way of thinking that low technology solutions are primitive and therefore they're overlooked.
Of course the Trektard answer is this: they didn't use boarding pikes, so the Borg must be able to adapt to them (not necessarily through shield frequencies but adapt in any other way). Which is pretty stupid, because we see the Borg hurt by Worf. Trektards even extend this to bullets, even though we've seen the Borg hurt by Picard's tommy gun, inventing elaborate rationalizations why a real tommy gun wouldn't work but the holodeck one would.
As for replicator patterns, I say that's a cop out. Federation ships carry around large amounts of useless data for holodeck simulations, so they must have accurate patterns of how guns and knives work. All they have to do is look in their own history and see Jonathan Archer shooting a Borg with a 10 MJ phaser. One shot, but oh well, why can't they up the juice on their own phasers. However their overlooking of this makes sense if low tech means stupid tech to the average Federation yes man. Archer's phase pistols, projectile weapons, Quarks weapons, Cardassian low-tech disruptors are obviously worse, because they're low tech thinks the average Federation engineer, and by extension Starfleet officers.
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Or maybe because the Borg are considerably stronger than your average human in Starfleet, so attempting to do any type of hand to hand or melee combat with them would largely be impractical? Especially with their nanotubes that they could use to attack crew with. Somehow I doubt using pikes is covered in standard Starfleet training, so they'd likely mostly suck at coordination as well.
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That was the reason I thought of boarding pikes - a swift thrust into a critical body part is going to kill the zombie-like Borg, and with six feet between you and the Borg, it's hard for them to stick you with nanoprobes.General Zod wrote:Or maybe because the Borg are considerably stronger than your average human in Starfleet, so attempting to do any type of hand to hand or melee combat with them would largely be impractical? Especially with their nanotubes that they could use to attack crew with. Somehow I doubt using pikes is covered in standard Starfleet training, so they'd likely mostly suck at coordination as well.
Brian's low-tech averse theory might have something to it - it certainly makes sense in-universe given all of the other problems they encounter that require elaborately complicated high-tech solutions, when a simple one might work better.
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The other problem with that, however, is if you get enough Borg boarding the ship, they'll be able to overwhelm the crew in short enough time to make the pikes useless as weapons. Considering that the Borg don't have the same survival mechanism the SF crew does, they can simply send wave after wave in until the opposition is crushed. Plus, you're assuming the crew would be able to make a score on a vital body part every time.SancheztheWhaler wrote:That was the reason I thought of boarding pikes - a swift thrust into a critical body part is going to kill the zombie-like Borg, and with six feet between you and the Borg, it's hard for them to stick you with nanoprobes.General Zod wrote:Or maybe because the Borg are considerably stronger than your average human in Starfleet, so attempting to do any type of hand to hand or melee combat with them would largely be impractical? Especially with their nanotubes that they could use to attack crew with. Somehow I doubt using pikes is covered in standard Starfleet training, so they'd likely mostly suck at coordination as well.
I seriously doubt your average redshirt will have the type of discipline needed to make that type of a consistent hit enough to give a Borg boarding party any more than a token resistance. It's not as though they're going to have their vitals completely unprotected after all. The Borg are smart enough to at least have implants that functions as armor to a degree.
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In addition to all the reasons given, pikes are probably a bad idea in the somewhat narrow corridors of the Enterprise. The corridors are not tall enough for the pike to be carried straight up, and it's hard to turn around with them, either walking in a corridor or in a fight if you get attacked from behind. A better solution might be slugthrowing assault rifles with bayonets. Surely the Holodeck has a simulation in it from an era when AK-47s were in use, which can be used as a basis for replicating some rifles and ammo.
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Slug throwers would be better, and both FC and Voyager have shown they can replicated WW1 and WW2 weaponry.CDiehl wrote:In addition to all the reasons given, pikes are probably a bad idea in the somewhat narrow corridors of the Enterprise. The corridors are not tall enough for the pike to be carried straight up, and it's hard to turn around with them, either walking in a corridor or in a fight if you get attacked from behind. A better solution might be slugthrowing assault rifles with bayonets. Surely the Holodeck has a simulation in it from an era when AK-47s were in use, which can be used as a basis for replicating some rifles and ammo.
Course this will be glossed over by ST writers because can't have the Borg killed by such primitive means
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The average goldshirt does have enough discipline to fight hand to hand and enough strength to beat Borg. Their main enemies are the Klingons after all, and in ST:FC they held checkpoints for hours, and won, see the Lt.'s bleeding skull. They probably used their phaser rifles as baseball bats.
If not boarding pikes, they could've just went with maces.
If not boarding pikes, they could've just went with maces.
Slugthrowers would make more sense, but come on - this is Star Trek! Nothing has to make sense. Having cutlasses would really accentuate the age of sail motif.Ghost Rider wrote:Slug throwers would be better, and both FC and Voyager have shown they can replicated WW1 and WW2 weaponry.CDiehl wrote:In addition to all the reasons given, pikes are probably a bad idea in the somewhat narrow corridors of the Enterprise. The corridors are not tall enough for the pike to be carried straight up, and it's hard to turn around with them, either walking in a corridor or in a fight if you get attacked from behind. A better solution might be slugthrowing assault rifles with bayonets. Surely the Holodeck has a simulation in it from an era when AK-47s were in use, which can be used as a basis for replicating some rifles and ammo.
Course this will be glossed over by ST writers because can't have the Borg killed by such primitive means
(then they can pain a giant skull and crossbones on the Enterprise. It was meant to be)
If rationalisations are needed, perhaps throwing lead around a ship which has combustable ship consoles might result in Very Bad Things happening. Of course, that sensible rationalisation falls flat considering Trek ships seem to be able to repair damaged ship's components in relatively short order (Voyager), regardless of the expense, while 'plasma burns' seem to be no less severe than "Owwie I scorched myself" rather than deep-fry cooking. Maybe a better detriment to using slugthrowers is the danger of ricochet?
Even so... a good ol' fashioned six-shooter would be miles ahead of those crummy phasers they use.
Phaser rifles are too fragile to be used as cudgels. Picard used one like that, and it broke in half.brianeyci wrote:The average goldshirt does have enough discipline to fight hand to hand and enough strength to beat Borg. Their main enemies are the Klingons after all, and in ST:FC they held checkpoints for hours, and won, see the Lt.'s bleeding skull. They probably used their phaser rifles as baseball bats.
(I don't have a problem with that, since phasers should be delicate instruments with sensitive electronics; Picard was an idiot for using his rifle in melee)
Cutlasses you motherfucker!If not boarding pikes, they could've just went with maces.
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This isn't quite as cut and paste as you indicate (Nitpick mode: Activate!). There have been several models of phaser rifle, and the only one observed to be fragile was the one Picard used in Nemesis.Stofsk wrote:Phaser rifles are too fragile to be used as cudgels. Picard used one like that, and it broke in half.brianeyci wrote:The average goldshirt does have enough discipline to fight hand to hand and enough strength to beat Borg. Their main enemies are the Klingons after all, and in ST:FC they held checkpoints for hours, and won, see the Lt.'s bleeding skull. They probably used their phaser rifles as baseball bats.
(I don't have a problem with that, since phasers should be delicate instruments with sensitive electronics; Picard was an idiot for using his rifle in melee)
The TNG rifle (the one with the two handles and shaped like a 4x4) has been used as a club many times in DS9 IIRC, both the First Contact and Insurrection (they look similar but are in fact different models) rifles were used successfully as clubs. The Nemesis model is slighter than either ST: FC or ST: I models and features a few other differences. It may be the odd stepchild in that it is the only fragile rifle out of the bunch, or Picard's rifle may have been defective. Either way, most Phaser rifles can be used as clubs without harming them (I cannot speak for Voyager compression rifles and I do not want to anyway).
While you are apparently joking a little, I agree. The average redshirt has little training in either weapon, but based on the performance of Worf's weapons I suspect Borg armor is relatively soft. Cutting weapons may be reasonably effective, but I would not want to tackle something with 10 times my strength with a mere clubCutlasses you motherfucker!
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Just on point, the Hansons apparently found a 'tactical drone' in their studies of the Borg which DID have heavy armor plating. If you note, in FC when Worf used his weapon as a club, he did so striking the head of the drone rather then its body. When a goldshirt thumped a drones chest with the butt of a rifle, the drone didn't even slow down and just swiped him out of the way.
And when Worf used his Mek'leth against the drone in the Zero G environment, he never used it against the drones center of mass. He sliced its wrist off (which I doubt is armored, its more of a utility thingy) then chopped into the side of its neck.
Its just that I'm not really that sure that bording pikes would be that effective. If you had to target them at the head only for example, it would be a far more difficult thing to do. Especially given the relatively tight quarters teh crew would be fighting in and the fact that hte Borg CAN 'powerwalk' when needed (they were doing this in FC during the retreat from engineering after the aborted attack).
Of course Star Trek Writers have a very weird idea of guns. Case in point, several drunk holographic Klingons charging a squad of WW2 Germans with Mausers and automatic weapons and easily making it to close quarters, while charging up a long narrow street towards them....
And when Worf used his Mek'leth against the drone in the Zero G environment, he never used it against the drones center of mass. He sliced its wrist off (which I doubt is armored, its more of a utility thingy) then chopped into the side of its neck.
Its just that I'm not really that sure that bording pikes would be that effective. If you had to target them at the head only for example, it would be a far more difficult thing to do. Especially given the relatively tight quarters teh crew would be fighting in and the fact that hte Borg CAN 'powerwalk' when needed (they were doing this in FC during the retreat from engineering after the aborted attack).
Of course Star Trek Writers have a very weird idea of guns. Case in point, several drunk holographic Klingons charging a squad of WW2 Germans with Mausers and automatic weapons and easily making it to close quarters, while charging up a long narrow street towards them....
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You'll obviously score a better hit on the head than the chest even if the guy is wearing nothing more than a tanned leather breastplate. It doesn't mean his chest armour would deflect a spear.
In any case, I have to wonder if anybody here has played Doom. Everybody knows that when you face zombies, you bring the shotgun.
In any case, I have to wonder if anybody here has played Doom. Everybody knows that when you face zombies, you bring the shotgun.
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Re: Question about Star Trek: First Contact
SancheztheWhaler wrote:I'm fairly certain I know what the answer is, but can anybody give any logical, in universe, reason why the crew of the Enterprise didn't replicate boarding pikes when they knew the borg had boarded the Enterprise? They're long (keeps vulnerable humans away from borg nanoprobes), sharp (will slide through armor), and the borg cannot adapt to sharp, cold steel (except in certain Trekkies Janeway masturbatory fantasies).
Just something I thought of about ten minutes ago.
Edit - if they can't replicate something that large or that quickly, why couldn't they go to the Enterprise metalshop and make long pointy metal sticks?
Does the Ent-E even have a metal shop?
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Have you any idea how long it's been since I played Doom? Besides the shotgun had an abysmal refire rate if memory serves.Darth Wong wrote: In any case, I have to wonder if anybody here has played Doom. Everybody knows that when you face zombies, you bring the shotgun.
As they have a tendency to try to replicate everything that's a good question.Does the Ent-E even have a metal shop?
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I picked maces because of armor. At least you can bludgeon someone to death with a mace, while unless you have training you'll be shit with a sword and just handle it like a big knife.
Shotgun for the win though. It's one of the things I liked about Executive Decision. When the marines need another gun, they hand out a shotgun to Kurt Russel's character and tell him he can't miss, just aim level and at the terrorist's chest, and don't look at the guy's eyes
.
You probably need a lot of stopping power to put down a Borg. If Borg tactical drones are at least as good as Data with their armor. So shotguns anyway. We didn't see tactical drones and we saw leathery armor in ST:FC because the Borg were in a rush and assimilating people fast, and they probably didn't have their equipment to fully armor their drones.
Shotgun for the win though. It's one of the things I liked about Executive Decision. When the marines need another gun, they hand out a shotgun to Kurt Russel's character and tell him he can't miss, just aim level and at the terrorist's chest, and don't look at the guy's eyes
.You probably need a lot of stopping power to put down a Borg. If Borg tactical drones are at least as good as Data with their armor. So shotguns anyway. We didn't see tactical drones and we saw leathery armor in ST:FC because the Borg were in a rush and assimilating people fast, and they probably didn't have their equipment to fully armor their drones.
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It wouldn't be that hard to put down a drone. They move like molasses, so you can just wait till they're close enough to reliably put a slug right between the eyes. A plate of chest armour works when the enemy can't take his time and put a bullet between your eyes from 10 feet away.
At long range against mobile targets, people will try to shoot for centre of mass. But at close range against slow-moving targets, you can pick from a menu of body parts to hit.
At long range against mobile targets, people will try to shoot for centre of mass. But at close range against slow-moving targets, you can pick from a menu of body parts to hit.
Last edited by Darth Wong on 2006-12-08 11:24pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Question about Star Trek: First Contact
They're called industrial replicators, Mr. "Post+1 who obviously hasn't bothered looking at the main site", dumbass.Cecelia5578 wrote:SancheztheWhaler wrote:I'm fairly certain I know what the answer is, but can anybody give any logical, in universe, reason why the crew of the Enterprise didn't replicate boarding pikes when they knew the borg had boarded the Enterprise? They're long (keeps vulnerable humans away from borg nanoprobes), sharp (will slide through armor), and the borg cannot adapt to sharp, cold steel (except in certain Trekkies Janeway masturbatory fantasies).
Just something I thought of about ten minutes ago.
Edit - if they can't replicate something that large or that quickly, why couldn't they go to the Enterprise metalshop and make long pointy metal sticks?
Does the Ent-E even have a metal shop?
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
It's not Mike's fault that game designers have some obsession with pump-action shotguns.Batman wrote:Have you any idea how long it's been since I played Doom? Besides the shotgun had an abysmal refire rate if memory serves.
What's funny is that the colonists in Aliens at least cobbled together seismic charges as weapons: surely the E-E had similar resources.
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But I doubt they had the same level of inventiveness or creativity. You never see anybody in Star Trek advocating simple solutions to problems. It's always some ridiculous techno-bullshit.Stark wrote:What's funny is that the colonists in Aliens at least cobbled together seismic charges as weapons: surely the E-E had similar resources.
Look at the Borg. How long did it take them to figure out that it might be a good idea to concentrate fleet fire on one spot of the cube? Isn't that the most obvious fucking common-sense solution in the world? Oh no, as we saw in the DS9 pilot, they got their asses kicked at Wolf 359 while pinging away randomly at spots all over the cube, and their idea of creative tactical thinking was bullshit about "modulating" this or that setting of the weapons. Brilliant.
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Amusingly, this attitude is shared by the fans (that's probably a chicken-egg situation). Surely E-E has either dangerous shit onhand or dangerous shit on file, and surely they can wire up a bomb, or a gas, or a stout lead pipe... but no, it's got to be forcefields and touch panels. 
What we need is a ST fanfilm where someone uses a dermal regenerator and piece of plasma conduit Evil Dead-style, just swinging and hacking and melting all over the place. Terrifyingly, when I thought of that, I racked my brains but couldn't come up with a chainsaw analogue that actually featured highspeed bits of sharp metal, as opposed to technobabble.
What we need is a ST fanfilm where someone uses a dermal regenerator and piece of plasma conduit Evil Dead-style, just swinging and hacking and melting all over the place.
Terrifyingly, when I thought of that, I racked my brains but couldn't come up with a chainsaw analogue that actually featured highspeed bits of sharp metal, as opposed to technobabble.