Judaism and life on earth

[Superman]

I was talking to a friend of mine who happens to be Jewish. He was noting some of the larger differences between Judaism and Christianity, and the concept of salvation by grace came up.

Now, without delving too much into theology, he pointed out that most Jews don't put too much stock into the afterlife because nobody knows what it is. There's no hell ('sheol' is not 'hades,' which is Greek anyway), and the religion is about living here on earth. The point of religion, he said, is to provide a better way of life while being here and to alleviate human suffering.

His problem with Christianity, and I agree, is that they're too focused on an afterlife. Helping people becomes secondary to 'just believing' (what's so important about that from god's perspective anyway), and that the point has been long lost. What remains are egotistical eccentrics who know nothing about the roots of their religion.

I don't agree with all his points, but I found that interesting.

[Cao Cao]

The promise of an afterlife of bliss and the threat of eternal damnation if one deviates from the True Way(tm) has always meant one thing to me - control.
A perversion of superstitious beliefs into something that can work for the minority in power, be they royalty, priests or whatever.
Fundamentalist Christianity has to be the most extreme example of putting the afterlife and a deity before anything else. No matter if you end up being a hateful, harmful prick.

But to be fair, while it's probably more common in Christianity, I do know some Christians who hold similar views of the afterlife like your friend does.

[Rye]

He's a liberal jew, there are liberal christians that act and say much the same things. Look at how Kevin Smith treated mainstream catholic christianity, for instance.

[Darth Raptor]

Yeah, definitely a liberal Jew. One needs only scroll through the Torah to find that the purpose of Judaism is not to "alleviate human suffering", but rather "obey God no matter what". The only distinction I can see is that Jews are conditioned not to get their hopes up, whereas Christians expect a little this for that to be involved somewhere.

[Cecelia5578]

I was talking to a friend of mine who happens to be Jewish. He was noting some of the larger differences between Judaism and Christianity, and the concept of salvation by grace came up.

Now, without delving too much into theology, he pointed out that most Jews don't put too much stock into the afterlife because nobody knows what it is. There's no hell ('sheol' is not 'hades,' which is Greek anyway), and the religion is about living here on earth. The point of religion, he said, is to provide a better way of life while being here and to alleviate human suffering.

His problem with Christianity, and I agree, is that they're too focused on an afterlife. Helping people becomes secondary to 'just believing' (what's so important about that from god's perspective anyway), and that the point has been long lost. What remains are egotistical eccentrics who know nothing about the roots of their religion.

I don't agree with all his points, but I found that interesting.

I wouldn't say that Jews don't believe in Hell-Hell is more of a development of the Hellenistic Era, 400BC to 100ADish or so, when a lot of what we would consider proto-Christian doctrines were developed by Judaism-like the concept of martyrdom and the resurrection to be found in the books of the Old Testament Apocrypha like Maccabes.

Also, with the exception of some long dead sects like the Essenes, Judaism never developed a sense of otherworldly detachment like monasticism, with its focus on losing the world.

[Darth Wong]

Every religion sounds pretty good if you listen uncritically to one of its more intelligent and socially knowledgeable advocates. They always downplay or ignore the stupid or harmful parts. So a smart Christian apologist will downplay the moronic things Paul said or the many inadequacies of Biblical morality as an ethics code. A smart Judaism apologist will downplay the fact that the entire religion is about tribal supremacism. A smart Islam apologist will downplay all of the militarism and misogynism.

[Xenophobe3691]

The main idea about Judaism that differs from its "children" is, yes, its focus on life.

One of the more interesting aspects of the religion is that, since God already handed down the law, it's "set in stone." Thousands of years of commentary, spanning the history of the religion, have provided differing interpretations of that same Law. Although a little known idea, the debate of issues involving religious disputes trumps even God's opinion.

Judaism has also been bitchslapped so often that practicality has set in. While still a religion (and thus insanity incarnate), the focus in Judaism is on life itself. If one must break even the most sacred of tenets to live, then not only is it permissible, it is commanded to do so. An example would be my grandfather, a diabetic, taking insulin made from pigs, eating on the Day of Atonement, or my father (an Anesthesiologist) working on Saturday (a cardinal sin otherwise.)

Judaism also differs from its children in that conversion is actively discouraged. It is required to go to a rabbi thrice before he will begin your education. And then you must learn all the tenets of the law, a fact that makes converts oftentimes much more religious than those born into the religion, a marked difference from Christianity and Islam. Judaism takes its "chosen people" idea very seriously, and to join is considered an extremely grave choice, and treated as such.

It's still a bunch of batshit crazy ramblings, but at least its learned practicality and maturity.

[Big Orange]

[A smart Judaism apologist will downplay the fact that the entire religion is about tribal supremacism.

How is Judaism based upon "racial" supremacy? Is it reflected in Israel's arrogance towards it's neighbours and subjugated non-Jews? But it's also interesting to know that the morally reprehensible stuff that occurs in the Christian Bible is mostly in the Old Testament.

It's still a bunch of batshit crazy ramblings, but at least its learned practicality and maturity.

Most Abrahamic faiths are like that and they constantly adapt to fit into most societies. What mainstream religion is the least batshit insane?

[Molyneux]

[A smart Judaism apologist will downplay the fact that the entire religion is about tribal supremacism.

How is Judaism based upon "racial" supremacy? Is it reflected in Israel's arrogance towards it's neighbours and subjugated non-Jews? But it's also interesting to know that the morally reprehensible stuff that occurs in the Christian Bible is mostly in the Old Testament.

It's still a bunch of batshit crazy ramblings, but at least its learned practicality and maturity.

Most Abrahamic faiths are like that and they constantly adapt to fit into most societies. What mainstream religion is the least batshit insane?

I would say Judaism...but I'm slightly biased in that regard.

[Big Orange]

I would say Judaism...but I'm slightly biased in that regard.

So you're saying that a religion that has laid down the moral bankruptcy of Christianity and Islam, plus to this very day champions malignant ethnocentrism is the least barking mad....?

[Rye]

The Church of England has the benefits of being pretty liberal and unobtrusive, plus it doesn't have the infant penis slicing and the arbitrary cleanliness/sabbath/whatever rules, as well as doing decent charity work.

[Molyneux]

I would say Judaism...but I'm slightly biased in that regard.

So you're saying that a religion that has laid down the moral bankruptcy of Christianity and Islam, plus to this very day champions malignant ethnocentrism is the least barking mad....?

Conservative Judaism (which is actually the middle-ground sect, and which I believe is either a plurality or close to it of the religion) teaches that a) there is no Hell, b) every good person of any religion will go to some sort of heaven, c) the Bible is not to be taken literally over the evidence of our own eyes, and d) the preservation of life is the single most important thing a human can do - it trumps all other rules.

Still a religion, but a decidedly less insane; Orthodox Judaism is fuckheads, of course, but at least in America they're a decided minority. Heck, Reform Judaism is even better than Conservative Judaism in that respect.

[Rye]

Yeah, but they still slice penises up because their invisible friend or "!tradition" tells them to. Are there many openly gay rabbis? I can't name any or point to situations like that gay anglican bishop a while ago in judaism.

[Molyneux]

Yeah, but they still slice penises up because their invisible friend or "!tradition" tells them to. Are there many openly gay rabbis? I can't name any or point to situations like that gay anglican bishop a while ago in judaism.

Yeah, circumcision is one thing that seriously creeps me out...wish I'd had a choice in the matter, at least.

As for gay rabbis - not in Conservative Judaism, I think, but Reform Judaism does allow gay marriage in some congregations (and gay rabbis are more widely accepted).

[Big Orange]

Conservative Judaism (which is actually the middle-ground sect, and which I believe is either a plurality or close to it of the religion) teaches that a) there is no Hell, b) every good person of any religion will go to some sort of heaven, c) the Bible is not to be taken literally over the evidence of our own eyes, and d) the preservation of life is the single most important thing a human can do - it trumps all other rules.

That sounds fair and much different to older Judaism with it's more negative traits.

Still a religion, but a decidedly less insane; Orthodox Judaism is fuckheads, of course, but at least in America they're a decided minority. Heck, Reform Judaism is even better than Conservative Judaism in that respect.

So mainstream Judaism and Christianity have reformed themselves to be more acceptable, but Islam hasn't caught up yet. And as creepy as circumcising sounds, I guess that's to do with identification or something.

[The Grim Squeaker]

And as creepy as circumcising sounds, I guess that's to do with identification or something.

Thats precisely the reason (although I do remember reading A few 2 studies on the subject that show slight improvements in safety from STD's and increased sexual pleasure and sensitivity).
Still its mainly a marker, same as the distinctive Black hats, "hair at the sides", Yarmulkes, etc' Used to help keep the jews together for millenia without being assimilated (Only killed and tortured) by surrounding cultures, especially the Christians (In the days where they'd gladly accept jewish converts).
Frankly I wouldn't change what I am, even if it does mark me it Marks me as part of something (I don't define myself as human-Jew, but a human as the sole base followed by other components, but it is part of who I am and massively part of my younger self).
And no, I don't intend to get into a Circumcision debate (Though I don't think that it should be done "Just in case" as Americans seem to do based on the last debate on the subject).

Judaism abroad really is very liberal as Molyneux pointed out, it serves its point of a "welding torch" for the community (Sabath dinners together, the son reading aloud with the grandfathers help, "yom Kippur" and individuals finding forgiveness for themselves, etc').
It also has most cases of real divine fury as bought about from crimes done by humans amongst themselves, nor religous crimes - The first & second temples for example where the Temple was used by prostitutes and for business, After all Jesus is regarded as a Jewish Prophet who got misinterpreted by Paul for a reason (BTW Jesus=Joseph); this helping the focus that religion should help people rather than hurt them.
(Hell the whole pork decision is due to it once being unhealthy and easy to get sick from, and the Kosher thing merely got overanalyzed to stupidity, the original script is "Do not burn a Lamb in its mothers milk", a moral issue of not boiling something in its own mothers milk, not the current state of seperate meat & milk basins ).

[Omega18]

Are there many openly gay rabbis? I can't name any or point to situations like that gay anglican bishop a while ago in judaism.

There certainly are quite a few openly gay Rabbis as far as Reform Judaism is concerned. Judaism definately is ahead of most Christian denominations in this area. The reason the gay bishop made the news was it was a first and so contraversial. Reform and Reconstructionist Judaism have had both openly gay Rabbis and allowed gay marriage ceremonies to be performed for awhile now.

Very recently Conservative Judaism took a dramatic step forward in this area by officially allowing both openly gay Rabbis to be trained in their seminaries (and presumably allowing the Rabbis that have been operating as part of their "previous don't ask don't tell" policy to be open about being Gay.) Basically they passed a series on contradictory rulings on the subject, but the net effect was a compromise solution allowing individual Rabbis to decide if they want to perform Gay marriage ceremonies and allowing individual Conservative Judaism seminaries to decide whether to admit openly gay individuals. The two seminaries in the US are both expected to allow openly Gay individuals with the one in Los Angeles already saying they will do so, the seminaries located outside of the United States are viewed as less likely to do so for now since they tend to be more conservatively oriented. (Orthodox Judaism is now the holdout in this area as tolerance towards Gays goes.)

Homosexual Jews may now be ordained as Conservative rabbis and rabbis now may perform same-sex unions, according to a landmark ruling Wednesday by the movement’s rabbinical committee that interprets Jewish law.

At the same time, the committee also upheld the current ban on gay rabbis or teachers, or other leadership positions.

The split decision, rendered after two days of deliberations here by the 25-member Committee on Jewish Law and Standards, was made possible because five position papers were considered and each needed only six votes to be considered valid...

Wednesday’s vote paves the way for the admission of openly gay and lesbian rabbinic and cantorial students at the movement’s flagship seminary, the Jewish Theological Seminary.

It also means, in practical terms, Conservative congregations will decide for themselves whether or not to hire openly gay and lesbian rabbis and cantors.

http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newsc ... rtid=13382

[Ace Pace]

Just a quick note, when Omega18 mentions conservative Judaism, it's not actully that conservative, and that Reform judaism + practically all other sects bar Orthodox, are still a very small minority compared to Orthodox judaism, so the situation is not that pretty.

[Omega18]

Just a quick note, when Omega18 mentions conservative Judaism, it's not actully that conservative, and that Reform judaism + practically all other sects bar Orthodox, are still a very small minority compared to Orthodox judaism, so the situation is not that pretty.

This is simply false as currently stated. Now what is true is that in Israel Orthodox Judaism is by far the largest sect, with the tendency towards either being an Orthodox Jew or not really religious at all.

However in the US, Orthodox Judaism is essentially the third largest denomination behind Reform Judaism and Conservative Judaism. (These numbers can be complicated by the number of Jews who don't actively belong to a synagogue and are not included in most of those survey numbers, but they tend to be more liberally inclined and more likely to favor Reform or Conservative Judaism than Orthodoxy, making Orthodox Judaism an even smaller percentage in the US.) Since somewhere around 40% of the world's Jewry lives in the US, asserting that all the other sects than Orthodoxy are a small minority is badly misleading.

[Ace Pace]

Ah well, I was speaking of my own surroundings, which are in Israel.

with the tendency towards either being an Orthodox Jew or not really religious at all.

Just to add, that is also simply false. Masoratim(traditonal Jews) are very much majority here.

[Omega18]

Just to add, that is also simply false. Masoratim(traditonal Jews) are very much majority here.

You may have a much better grasp on this issue than I do, but what I have read on this issue suggests there is a great deal of polarization in comparison to the US in this area.

Masorati (which means ‘traditional’ in Hebrew), is an accurate description of their religious tendencies. The stereotype of a Masorati Jew is one who, on Saturday morning, goes to synagogue and in the afternoon, a soccer game. While observing a lot of the traditions of Judaism such as putting a mezzuzah on the door, going to synagogue, and keeping kosher, they are not strictly halachic in their observance. As a result of their arrival into an environment dominated by different forms of Ashkenazi Judaism, this middle-of-the-road observance has not been given much legitimacy. This has led to two trends that currently dominate this community. A minority of Mizrachi Jews are becoming ultra-orthodox (the popularity of the political party ‘Shas’ reflects this). However, the vast majority of Mizrachi Jews are becoming increasingly secularized. These trends are expected to continue.

http://www.hagshama.org.il/en/resources ... sp?id=1219

[Ace Pace]

Just to add, that is also simply false. Masoratim(traditonal Jews) are very much majority here.

You may have a much better grasp on this issue than I do, but what I have read on this issue suggests there is a great deal of polarization in comparison to the US in this area.

Masorati (which means ‘traditional’ in Hebrew), is an accurate description of their religious tendencies. The stereotype of a Masorati Jew is one who, on Saturday morning, goes to synagogue and in the afternoon, a soccer game. While observing a lot of the traditions of Judaism such as putting a mezzuzah on the door, going to synagogue, and keeping kosher, they are not strictly halachic in their observance. As a result of their arrival into an environment dominated by different forms of Ashkenazi Judaism, this middle-of-the-road observance has not been given much legitimacy. This has led to two trends that currently dominate this community. A minority of Mizrachi Jews are becoming ultra-orthodox (the popularity of the political party ‘Shas’ reflects this). However, the vast majority of Mizrachi Jews are becoming increasingly secularized. These trends are expected to continue.

http://www.hagshama.org.il/en/resources ... sp?id=1219

Not to dismiss the source of out hand, but I'd argue that lately, the Masorati Jews have become an actual force and have infact started making small amounts of noise. In this case, it's the silent majority actully waking up about things.

Now this makes me wonder about the nature of American Jewry, since acording to some surveys I've seen here, most arn't even particularly attracted to Israel, maybe suggesting a future fork with Israeli jewry over the question of Israels place in the religion.

[Big Orange]

Still its mainly a marker, same as the distinctive Black hats, "hair at the sides", Yarmulkes, etc' Used to help keep the jews together for millenia without being assimilated (Only killed and tortured) by surrounding cultures, especially the Christians (In the days where they'd gladly accept jewish converts).

I read somewhere that without Christian and Islamic persecution in the last 2000 years, the Jewish population would perhaps number between 250 to 400 million people today.

(Hell the whole pork decision is due to it once being unhealthy and easy to get sick from, and the Kosher thing merely got overanalyzed to stupidity, the original script is "Do not burn a Lamb in its mothers milk", a moral issue of not boiling something in its own mothers milk, not the current state of seperate meat & milk basins ).

Well in a desert/scrub enviroment with a high temperature, I guess it was very hard for any primitive culture to keep it's food fresh or something, so they laid down a quasi-suppositious food code.