Viscount stats unveiled; SSD mess resolved

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2006-12-06 11:56pm

Jim Raynor wrote:[McDumbshit]I didn't see thousands of ships, nor did I see a single Star Dreadnaught. BTW the novelization had Dreadnaughts and Carracks...[/McDumbshit]

This is one of the reasons why I quit that forum. I lost patience dealing with idiots.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-12-09 12:18pm

Guess who decided to add info (opinion) to the BDZ article on wookieepedia. Does anyone have the Scavenger's Hunt source that talks about Dankayo being BDZ'd? Hodge writes that the story never calls it a BDZ at all.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-12-09 04:14pm

It's true that Dankayo was not called a BDZ. I don't see how that refutes Saxton at all though. The planet's surface wasn't completely melted, and that didn't need to happen because it was NOT a BDZ.

However, Scavenger Hunt does say that Dankayo's surface had been evenly-cratered, the topsoil atomized, and the atmosphere blown away:

Scavenger Hunt wrote:Even before the last of its atmosphere drifted away, before the dense clouds of atomized topsoil could begin to settle, Imperial transports Elusive and Timely, as well as a complement of TIE fighters, moved in to perform "mop-up" operations and a thorough search of Dankayo's now evenly-cratered surface.

Read that carefully; the atmosphere was blown away AFTER the clouds of atomized soil settled, refuting McDumbshit's idea that it's all figurative language since you need an atmosphere to suspend clouds of material.

That's an impressive amount of planetary damage, more than the minimalists would like to believe. I seriously doubt that anyone other than McDumbshit would read that passage and come to the conclusion that it was only the BASE'S atmosphere and surface that was destroyed.

That, combined with the Scavenger Hunt's description of the search of the planet's surface as "thorough," and that "not a single living being, living or dead, was discovered on the planet," suggests planet-wide devastation.

Gigaton-level firepower had been established long before Saxton wrote his ICS books. The Imperial Sourcebook states that a Star Destroyer could reduce a world to slag. If McDumbshit wants to say that's merely "impressionistic," the burden of proof is on him to show that it is.

Using this, and making conservative estimates that Star Destroyers could only melt the surface of a planet to a piddly one meter (and the minimalists and Trektards actually think this is wank

), Saxton and others calculated firepower in the ballpark of gigatons. Slave Ship also flat-out said that the recoil alone from a warship's guns was in equivalent to a gigaton-level hit. Wong also has a number of other gigaton calculations, using other examples from the EU, here.

So no, Saxton was not pulling wank numbers out of his ass when he wrote AOTC ICS.

Keep McDumbshit's speculative "Behind the Scenes" bullshit out of the article.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-12-09 05:40pm

I fixed the Dankayo article, even adding a source that proves Hodge's dishonesty, but I expect trouble.

NRS Guardian · Post by **NRS Guardian** » 2006-12-09 06:03pm

Another thing is that topsoil is technically the topmost nutrient rich layer of soil that can support plant-life. Which implies that Dankayo was habitable, in addition to the fact that the Empire searched the entire planet for life.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-12-10 04:16am

How can anyone read "Dankayo's evenly-cratered surface" and say it suggests local damage? That's beyond me.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-12-10 04:49am

Stas Bush wrote:How can anyone read "Dankayo's evenly-cratered surface" and say it suggests local damage? That's beyond me.

McDishonesty sure can. It's a complete waste of time to engage in debates with that person. Just correct it, put something to the general public on the Talk page and ignore him. That's my advice.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-12-10 05:11pm

Got to poke at someone's set today (unable to buy my own. delivery is tomorrow). Very detailed. HomeOne appears to be >1.2 km by eyeballing based off the hangar bay, but I need to measure it. Assault frigate is actually a bastardized version of the mk 1 from WEG and the mk 2 from the video games - it is split in the front, but it has the long spine.

Viscount and Executor are huge. I'm not sure they will even fit in the measuring equipment I have available at work, I may need to buy my own graduated cylinder that is big enough.

Stuff is pretty detailed. I wish it were diecast instead of this rubber stuff though.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-12-11 12:39pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:As an amusing side note, Cracken's Threat Dossier mentions that SSDs were mentioned to be "Sector level" commands, implying at least ONE SSD-type vessel per sector, putting that figure in the thousands easily.

Can you recall which part of the book says this? (The Hapan Incident, the Black Fleet Crisis, the Corellian Insurrection?) I'd like to find it and write about it on wookieepedia.

IceHawk-181 · Post by **IceHawk-181** » 2006-12-11 12:48pm

Ask and thou shalt receiveth…

Cracken’s Threat Dossier: Page 75
New Class Ships
Each Imperial-class Star Destroyer is a mobile command base. The Super-class Star Destroyer was designed to be a sector-level command base and the Death Stars were to be the center of regional commands.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2006-12-11 01:00pm

IceHawk-181 wrote:Ask and thou shalt receiveth…

Cracken’s Threat Dossier: Page 75
New Class Ships
Each Imperial-class Star Destroyer is a mobile command base. The Super-class Star Destroyer was designed to be a sector-level command base and the Death Stars were to be the center of regional commands.

So the Empire intended to build more than one DS. Good to know.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2006-12-11 01:13pm

FTeik wrote:
IceHawk-181 wrote:Ask and thou shalt receiveth…

Cracken’s Threat Dossier: Page 75
New Class Ships
Each Imperial-class Star Destroyer is a mobile command base. The Super-class Star Destroyer was designed to be a sector-level command base and the Death Stars were to be the center of regional commands.
So the Empire intended to build more than one DS. Good to know.

What is "Cracken’s Threat Dossier"? (RPG material?). Its truly the best anti-minimalism quote I've seen outside "ICS", "Star by Star" for donkeys years.

EDIT: No matter, found [RPG]

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-12-11 01:49pm

Cracken's Threat Dossier, terrible art but good info. :D

Thanks alot!

IceHawk-181 · Post by **IceHawk-181** » 2006-12-11 02:24pm

The Dossier also gives us a better understanding of the New Republic’s Naval situation and the status of the NR/IR conflict circa-16 ABY.

The New Republic Defense Force fleets, of which there were only five, are truly pitiful when compared to the Imperial counterpart.

“The Defense Force is smaller than its Imperial predecessor by a factor of about 5,000 ships and is still shrinking…A Defense Force Fleet is parallel in function and size to an augmented Imperial Sector Group, but covers an entire region, consisting of dozens of sectors.” – pg 64

Although it does mention “local system forces” able to aide the fleets it also points out while there are “thousands of actual ships” the actual forces available to respond to galactic threats range from the “several dozen to several hundred.”

Also, Black Sword Command operates 60-ships at the end of BFC.
The Dossier describes 60 vessels, Interdictors and larger, with enough Star Destroyers to form “the backbone of two sector groups” and a total strength of “10 Superiority Fleets”.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2006-12-11 02:45pm

Is there a heirarchy listed somewhere to give us an idea of how 'sector groups' and 'superiority fleets' relate to hard numbers?

IceHawk-181 · Post by **IceHawk-181** » 2006-12-11 02:56pm

The Imperial fleet hierarchy from the Imperial Sourcebook and other sources tell us the Empire operated over a thousand 24-ISD Sector Groups, while the standard Superiority Fleet operated a 6-ISD force.

The Imperial Star Destroyers are simply the main capital ships…there’s another ~1,600 combat ships in a sector group.

The New Republic fleets sound entirely situational, with the singular exception of the Fifth Fleet.
That fleet held a modular design, 5 Battlegroups of 5 Taskforces of 20 capital ships each, for a total of 500 capital ships in a fully mobilized New Class NRDF Fleet.

The other fleets are likely far larger however.

EDIT:
Based on the statements about “augmented Sector Fleets” (60-80 ISD?) and that the New Class Fleets seem to operate with a single major capital ship supported by at least two Heavy Cruisers in thier taskforces, a basic fleet like a fully mobilized Fifth could lay claim to 75 capital ships capable of dueling Imperial Star Destroyers.

Roughly equal to three Sector Groups in major vessels, or a dozen Superiority Fleets.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2006-12-11 03:15pm

Oh, the RPG has its share of pearls, if you know what to look for. Unfortunatly the authors of the EU look at the wrong things.

Using the OOB-diagram for an Imperial Sectorgroup from the ISB I got 80 ISDs and more than 800 Victories (or ships of comparable power) for an augmented sector-group. On the other side even at its lowest a sector-group would contain 24 ISDs and 60 Victories.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-12-11 05:06pm

So that means a lower estimate of 60,000 VSDs in the Imperial era?

IceHawk-181 · Post by **IceHawk-181** » 2006-12-11 05:39pm

Within the Imperial Star Fleet’s Sector Groups alone we can account for 1,600,000 combat vessels, of which at least 24,000 are Imperial Star Destroyers.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2006-12-12 10:46am

VT-16 wrote:So that means a lower estimate of 60,000 VSDs in the Imperial era?

Basically yes. Of course one has to wonder, what a "Heavy Assault Squadron" uses instead of Vic-SDs if those were truly phased out.

Concerning the augmented sector-group: I get 80 ISDs, ~ 800 VSDs and 37,000 smaller vessels, if I go with more, but less powerful ships (based on the composition of the different kind of lines). If I use an approach of less, but more powerful ships I get 80 ISDs, more than 3,000 VSDs and ~ 15,000 smaller vessels. And all thanks to WEG.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-12-13 02:00am

FTeik wrote:Basically yes. Of course one has to wonder, what a "Heavy Assault Squadron" uses instead of Vic-SDs if those were truly phased out.

Maybe a smaller amount of the multi-mile long Star Destroyers mentioned in AOTC:ICS? Jerec in Dark Forces: Soldier for the Empire seemed to contemplate using one to subjugate Sulon in in 1 BBY but decided a smaller vessel was enough (an ISD).

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2006-12-13 03:38pm

IceHawk-181 wrote:Within the Imperial Star Fleet’s Sector Groups alone we can account for 1,600,000 combat vessels, of which at least 24,000 are Imperial Star Destroyers.

At least twice that. The ISB makes mention of "thousands" of Sector Groups directly, while indicating that specific regions like the Outer Rim alone comprise "thousands" of Sectors" (although the Outer Rim bit being thousands of sectors may be a separate source, I'd have to ask Publius.)

If you go by the ROTS novelization where Palpatine had a "super-majority" in the Senate and there were at least 2,000 Senators opposing him, we can infer at least 6,000 sectors, which implies hundreds of thousands of ISDs, easily.

That also disregards the notion of "mobile" assets (like Death squadron, Scourge Squadron, Roek's squadron, Giel's squadron, etc.) and assets specifically assigned to individuals (like the additonal fleet assets Tarkin controlled.)

fusion · Post by **fusion** » 2006-12-13 07:17pm

Lets put this in persective, if the death star was designed to be a battle station for a sector. Then there should be tens of millions of ships per sector. The Death Star is equal to about a million cubic miles so at the very minimium is about five million naval ships per sector. However, half of a fleet should and cannot be made of a single ship due to power struggle reasons so to be able to defeat the death star, there should be atleast twice as much ships to make sure the rest of the fleet is more powerful then the one ship (reactor-wise). So in conculsion there should be at least ten million ships per sector using this fact, if it is true.
Noting the number of floating carts in the sentoral hall, then there should be a few thousand senators, every two sharing a sector. If both are true then there should be at least ten billion combat capable ships (not inculding fighters of course

). Ten billion ships.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-12-14 02:21am

if the death star was designed to be a battle station for a sector

Region, not sector.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2006-12-14 11:31am

ImperialSourcebook wrote: The Empire has countless regions, which can contain from as few as three to upwards of thousands of sectors.