Ethical Question

[Covenant]

I've got a buddy who has a real problem trying to be firm with their friends, and the problem comes in when those friends are not always pleasent. As far as I know it's just verbal, but when he gets drunk nobody wants to be around him, and I really am getting sick of the abuse I'm taking and seeing other people taking without my friend sticking upf or me. I feel like their silence is being interperted as consent by the douchebag, though it's quite possible I'm just being paranoid.

I'm perfectly able to ask them to keep their friends in line, and have, but they don't want to be hurtful or rude or cruel about it, so nothing ends up going down. Obviously, this annoys me, so I'm an involved party and clouds my reasoning, so I was going to ask for an ethics rundown on the question of this. It's a two parter:

A) Does someone have a responsibility to keep a friend in check, even if being firm and articulating that they're out of line requires you to be hurtful or make demands of them? Not just a right, but a responsibility. Are they negligent when they don't speak up is out of line?

B) If you do have a responsibility to stop one friend from harming another friend (or passerby or whatnot), how can you articulate this in an assertive, positive manner without alienating them? Note, this is what I'd tell my friend to do, not what I'd do. I want to give them a flashcard on how to tell Sir. Douche to settle the fuck down without starting a confrontation. They excuse their friend's faults, but they do recognize them, and agree that it's a behavior that could use correcting.

Christmas is creeping up, and I'll be seeing this guy for sure, and there will indeed be booze involved. I wish my buddy would just, you know, say "Hey man, don't be an asswipe," but they don't want to do that. I think that'd probably be the simplest way of showing that the behavior isn't cool with them, but whatever. If you feel the same way, that being blunt may feel wierd but is ultimately the best for everyone, say so.

Also, ethically, isn't it best to be firm with the hurtful person to stop as much hurt as possible? Why save your chastisement for strangers you'll never see and can't really impact the lives of and ignore a misbehaving friend, who hurts people that exist in YOUR life, and whose behavior you CAN control?

[Superman]

In my opinion, you can express your own feelings about him. Bringing up other people may just result in their denial, and then you would look like a liar.

You can tell him your feelings, but don't expect him to change. People like this usually have to learn shit the hard way, if ever.

[Ravencrow]

If a friend behaves in such way that is abusive to others, be it friend or stranger, I would have said something. I don't know if it's supposed to be a responsibility or not. I might hold back for a while, but if such behaviors are persistent and continue, and hurtful to someone, I would definetly say something, confront the person in private or only among our close friends.

You can't ever control another person's behavior, but I think it's in your right to tell someone that you don't like what they are doing. Some might just drop you as a friends for doing that, but that just goes to show how real your friendship is.

Who knows? He might not realize what an asshole he is and might appreciate your honesty. I used to be rather explosive with my friends until one of them sat me down and told me that if I go on that way, I'm going to have no friends in the end. Didn't like it, but I was glad someone told me before I lost all my friends.

[Covenant]

In my opinion, you can express your own feelings about him. Bringing up other people may just result in their denial, and then you would look like a liar.

You can tell him your feelings, but don't expect him to change. People like this usually have to learn shit the hard way, if ever.

To be clear, I've certainly expressed my feelings about it to both of them, but I've got no power over McJackass. I think my friend would though, so I'm trying to get him to back me up, rather than just sitting on his thumbs when this guy is being the way he is.

[WarHawk]

I don't believe it is your responsibility to stand up for your friends, they should learn to defend themselves, sometimes i face this situation with my friends, at times 2 or 3 of my buddies will bully around one of the "weaker" guys in our circle of friends, sometimes i let it go, and sometimes i stand up for him, my friends just leave him alone and everything goes on as if nothing ever happened. I don't know what is the problem with standing up against the guy you say, nothing wrong with telling him what you think about his actions, if he is smart he will realize that he is wrong and that he makes people uncomfortable with his attitude.

[Covenant]

Oh dear lord, it's not me!

My friend is fine He's got a friend who is not so fine. I don't like him and think he's a generally offensive dude, and I've told him that plenty, and I have no issues standing up to the guy since he's like half my mass and not exactly a scrappy fighter. I just wish the guy didn't shit on any conversation he enters, and I can't eject the guy from our company because he gets invited over by my friend.

That's my problem. I've got a buddy I enjoy hanging out with, but he brings baggage over. He knows the guy gets out of line, and I can stick up for myself, but I wish that my friend would show ME the respect of telling this guy that his behavior is asstastic. And I don't want to be an ogre about it and just slug him.

What I want is for him to go "Dude, don't be a dick" to his friend. He knows it's dickish behavior, and I'm not the only target for this ire, but I'm tired of being the nanny. Last year I was even asked to make sure he didn't hit anybody because he was starting to get drunk, and I'm really pretty burnt out. So either he gets in line, or it's hard to hang out with my friend. I just don't know why it's so hard to tell your buddy to chill it out when it's upsetting people and causing strain on mutual friendships.

Anyway, if I'm really the only one who thinks this is an issue then I suppose I'll just need to square it with my buddy, but I feel like I'm punishing the wrong dude.

[WarHawk]

In that case then you should have a serious conversation with your friend, but let it all out, tell him how you really, REALLY, feel about the guy, no fucking around, if you have to say "hey dude, listen, john doe is a fucking asshole and he annoys the shit out of me, he ruins everybody's fun and nobody likes him, i would appreciate if you please don't invite him to our parties or at least tell him have the common decency to not beat the shit out of people when he is drunk" well, i exaggerated the last part but you get the point.

[Ravencrow]

Your initial post seem to be a whole lot of things other than just your particular predicament, so forgive me if I totally misunderstood you.

If you don't tell your friend what you think about his friend, then you have to put with this. I wonder if it's about ethics or you just have a hard time deciding what to do because you don't want to risk losing this particular friend's company by telling him straight that you can't stand the company he keeps.

Question is: is your friend even bothered by the jerk's behavior or does he take it like a bad joke and just ignore it?

but I wish that my friend would show ME the respect of telling this guy that his behavior is asstastic. And I don't want to be an ogre about it and just slug him.

Your friend may be expecting you to do the standing up.

[phred]

In that case then you should have a serious conversation with your friend, but let it all out, tell him how you really, REALLY, feel about the guy, no fucking around

good start, also another idea is the silent treatment for asshole dude. just stop responding to anything he does unless hes trying to get physical with you. it may sound childish but it will get results, and if your friend isnt doing anything your best option is to escalate to a point where it cant be ignored

[Singular Intellect]

If a friend of mine acts like a prick, I give them the boot and tell them to fuck off. I don't hide behind complicated pleasantries or 'tactful' approaches.

Either they get the message or I cut them loose.

[Nate_A]

If you are going to call someone your friend, then you have to concern yourself with his character; because friendship with someone is a tacit approval of that persons actions. Therefore, if one wants to be considered ethical, one had better correct his friends when they are being blatantly unethical in his presence.

[Big Phil]

Let me see if I understand this. You have a friend, and your friend has a friend, and your friend's friend is a dick? Is that right? Here's an idea: stop being such a pussy and tell your friend that you don't want his friend around any more. Tell your friend that the other guy is a dick, he's lame, and you don't want to deal with his shit. If your friend doesn't like that, he can come up with an alternate solution, but you don't need to be so fucking passive just because everybody else is. Seems to me like there's a whole bunch of pussies all hanging around together and nobody's willing to stand up to the asshole. From the way you make him sound, the asshole is more bark than bite, so you might want to just stand up to him.

True story - years ago I went to a party with three of my friends. There was one guy at the party who was hammered and making an ass of himself, but he was friends with the host so nobody wanted to say anything. We all just kept avoiding him. The drunk guy finally started mouthing off about how "America sucks," and one of my friends got up, said "What did you say about America?" and pushed the guy over a chair, knocking him flat on his back. The guy laid there looking sheepish for a minute, then apologized, and didn't say much the rest of the night. No fistacuffs, just a simple assertion of dominance over a drunken loudmouth. We still tell that story, because it's such a good one.

[Covenant]

Let me see if I understand this. You have a friend, and your friend has a friend, and your friend's friend is a dick? Is that right? Here's an idea: stop being such a pussy and tell your friend that you don't want his friend around any more.

Okay okay, for the record, let me make a number of things clear.

I have no problem standing up for myself, he's probably all of 120 pounds and chain-smoked out and I'm all slimmed down to 225, so this guy is a frustrating little weasel and not something intimidating. I just hate going out with him in tow anywhere because it embarasses me, and hanging out with him around just removes the relaxation effect. It makes it so my friend is really no fun to be around due to the baggage, and I just want to see some sort of ownership taken by the guy inviting him along.

It's like having a really annoying, nippy dog, and the owner doesn't claim any responsibility for it. Sure, this dude gets pretty vicious when drunk, but he's never slugged anyone yet and I think that'd be the end of it right there. It's just a strain on the friendship, and I'm not the only member of our group that feels this way. Besides punting the guy who invites him over, the only solution is to get HIM to talk to his friend. I figured most people would agree with that. I'm frankly amazed at the level of indifference. Even if someone can and does stand up for themselves just fine, I'd figure that bad behavior deserves some kind of punishment from the person who brought them over, not just the consent of silence.

[Big Phil]

Let me see if I understand this. You have a friend, and your friend has a friend, and your friend's friend is a dick? Is that right? Here's an idea: stop being such a pussy and tell your friend that you don't want his friend around any more.

Okay okay, for the record, let me make a number of things clear.

I have no problem standing up for myself, he's probably all of 120 pounds and chain-smoked out and I'm all slimmed down to 225, so this guy is a frustrating little weasel and not something intimidating. I just hate going out with him in tow anywhere because it embarasses me, and hanging out with him around just removes the relaxation effect. It makes it so my friend is really no fun to be around due to the baggage, and I just want to see some sort of ownership taken by the guy inviting him along.

It's like having a really annoying, nippy dog, and the owner doesn't claim any responsibility for it. Sure, this dude gets pretty vicious when drunk, but he's never slugged anyone yet and I think that'd be the end of it right there. It's just a strain on the friendship, and I'm not the only member of our group that feels this way. Besides punting the guy who invites him over, the only solution is to get HIM to talk to his friend. I figured most people would agree with that. I'm frankly amazed at the level of indifference. Even if someone can and does stand up for themselves just fine, I'd figure that bad behavior deserves some kind of punishment from the person who brought them over, not just the consent of silence.

It's easier for people to do nothing than to speak up and voice their displeasure. If you don't like the guy, you should tell your friend you don't want him around. Unless there's other drama you haven't mentioned, the solution is fairly straightforward. If he gets brought along again, and insists on being a dick, you don't need to be nice. You can be a dick right back, you can make fun of his scrawny drunken ass, you can get in his face and call him on it and threaten a swift boot in the ass, etc. In other words, if you choose to be passive or pass the buck, he's going to continue to irritate you, and I don't see why you need to cut off your friend to get him to stop bringing the dickhead along.

[Kyle]

I once was in a slightly similar situation, a guy I used to hang out with because we had mutual friend would get hammered and start shit talking and being a general asshole. If he's really as big a pain in the ass as your making him out to be then I'd say the solution simple, be an ass right back.

You mentioned the "consent of silence," well your part of it. The only way to change that is to speak up and make your feelings known.

Next time he makes some snide comment or just acts like an ass, just tell him to shut the fuck up. If he says anything other then sorry, tell him straight up your sick of his shit and it got old a long time ago. Continue that the only reason you haven't said anything before is because "X" is his friend and yours too and you were trying to be respectful to him. But you've had enough of it, if he wants to keep hanging out then he needs to act like a normal decent human being and not a douchebag.

If this guy is as bad as you make him out to be, then at this point, your other friends will probably jump in about now with comments like, "He's right, shut up and don't be an ass," or "You know what I'm sick of it too."

This is almost exactly what I was forced to say a few years ago.

Anyway, if you know him well enough to go out drinking, then you know him well enough to set him straight. So just do it, don't go telling someone else to do it.

[defanatic]

I responded as "Yes, but conditionally"

If your friend is being verbally abusive to a stranger that has been verbally abusive (or physically, or whatever) to you or him/her, then it's probably fine, and I wouldn't throw a fit. On the other hand, if a friend just starts throwing insults at someone, I'd probably ask them to stop.

[Covenant]

Anyway, if you know him well enough to go out drinking, then you know him well enough to set him straight. So just do it, don't go telling someone else to do it.

I want everyone to stop saying this. I do! But since I'm the only one saying it, I end up feeling like an idiot. That's why I made the thread, I wanted a reality check, to see if this was an ethics issue or if I was just being ridiculous.

We need to get back on topic, since I do know that it's best to speak up. But the person who I think would be able to actually make it stick, the one he likes to hang out with and would want to avoid offending, is too much of a wuss to tell him so. I was trying to get some consensus to see if I was being reasonable with calling this something he should do, despite the jackass' feelings.

Does that make it more clear? I really do appreciate all the responses, but I'm not the one with the weak will, I'm just tired of getting sniped at from behind the cover of my friend.

[LadyTevar]

If your friend is too much of a wuss to tell the guy off, and you can't/won't get that friend to stop inviting him to hang with you, it's time to be very fuckin' blunt.

"Dude, is (so-and-so) coming? He is? Fine, have fun, I'm going to do my own thing tonight."
And stick to it.

Hell, take the other friends who hate the guy off with you, because to me it sounds like the only way your friend is going to grow a spine is if he realizes that asshole is only going to make his other friends avoid him.