Which more Devestating: No God or Not Caring?

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2006-12-13 07:19am

Scenario

Someone either proves, beyond a shadow of a doubt (and everyone realises he's right, no acceptions) that either

A) - God exists, but he doesn't care. He pretty much lets anyone into Heaven that didn't piss him personally off.
B) - God does not exist

Which would be more devestating to Fundies?

salm · Post by **salm** » 2006-12-13 07:43am

I think they´re more scared of total oblivion than of having to spend the rest of their days with athiests and people from oether religions whith a harp on a cloud.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-12-13 07:45am

The second obviously.

You should've put it that way: either god doesn't exist, or he puts all fundies in hell for being bigoted pussies whilst letting all atheists and freethinkers into heaven for their braveness

The second would be a far greater blow than atheists being right.... it would've been truly devastating to see how your sworn enemies take what you thought was for you

from the hands of your God.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2006-12-13 08:00am

B obviously, A would weaken them but religion would still exist.
B would destroy religion (Or at least smash it from the mainstream) down to the moderates (Which are the source of the Fundies power and support base)

Molyneux · Post by **Molyneux** » 2006-12-13 09:07am

"Oh almighty Ao, without whom we are as naught! ...how's the weather up there?"

Proof of the nonexistence of God would definitely be more damaging.

Molyneux · Post by **Molyneux** » 2006-12-13 09:08am

<ghetto edit> FSCK I'm posting too early. "nought", not "naught".</ghetto edit>

GrandMasterTerwynn · Post by **GrandMasterTerwynn** » 2006-12-13 10:21am

Solauren wrote:Scenario

Someone either proves, beyond a shadow of a doubt (and everyone realises he's right, no acceptions) that either

A) - God exists, but he doesn't care. He pretty much lets anyone into Heaven that didn't piss him personally off.
B) - God does not exist

Which would be more devestating to Fundies?

Fairly obviously B. In fact, A would have zero effect on the fundies, as the preachers would simply start telling their flocks that all the usual ways to get sent to hell will be personally offensive to God, and guaranteed to make him care about smiting you. In fact, I'm fairly certain more than a few preachers do something like this already.

Tinkerbell · Post by **Tinkerbell** » 2006-12-13 10:45am

If getting into heaven is truly arbitrary, then I think A. They've been waving heaven around just waiting for the day when they get to go and we all go to hell. Now, not only is heaven not exclusive, but you have to share it with the Athiests that didn't do anything too stupid.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-12-13 12:06pm

Either would be devastating to the kind of fundie who takes his beliefs seriously and has made all kinds of sacrifices and self-denials for his faith, because it would mean that all of those sacrifices were utterly pointless.

However, in my experience, most fundies haven't really sacrificed a damned thing for their faith, other than the hour they spend in church every Sunday (and which they use as a social and business networking tool anyway). Their faith is just a tool which gives them an excuse to feel superior to others by condemning the unrighteous, so even if they were to lose it somehow, they would not be devastated. They might, however, allow their sociopathic nature to run free (the more intolerant fundies must have sociopathic tendencies, given the total lack of sympathy they tend to display for the targets of their hatred).

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2006-12-13 01:52pm

Fundies mostly operate out of fear, and, in my opinion, they are acting out a psychological defense mechanism that has little to do with reality.

They could work with the realization that god doesn't care, some probably feel this way anyway. In their minds, though, God has to exist. Their entire screwy world view is based on it. It's how they justify their bigotry, racism, arrogance, intolerance, etc.

Feil · Post by **Feil** » 2006-12-13 02:19pm

At risk of violating the OP, I would suggest that people would be likely simply to doublethink away the proof of God's nonexistence, out of social pressure and tradition, like all the people who deconvert to agnosticism, atheism, or deism but never admit it to themselves or anyone else and remain Bible-believing Christians 'till the day they die.

The proof that God didn't care, on the other hand, would be a tremendous theological coup, and would require little in the way of deviation from community norms or indoctrinated beliefs, and be harder to doublethink into nothingness.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2006-12-13 02:57pm

Feil wrote:At risk of violating the OP, I would suggest that people would be likely simply to doublethink away the proof of God's nonexistence, out of social pressure and tradition, like all the people who deconvert to agnosticism, atheism, or deism but never admit it to themselves or anyone else and remain Bible-believing Christians 'till the day they die.

Of course they would. Denial, in general, makes up a huge part of faith. How gay bashers many are closet homosexuals? How many rally against alcohol but secretly drink? How many fight against the perversion of pornography but secretly jerk off to it? The religion may as well be called "Denialism."

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2006-12-13 03:42pm

For your typical fundie, God already doesn't care. The only entrance requirement for heaven in most of their minds is "accept Jesus" and as such, God CAN'T care what kind of person you are. I've had fundies tell me to my faith that you can be a mass murder and still get into heaven so long as you accept Jesus.

However, proving that their entire belief structure is a load of bullshit will have them cripled for the rest of their lives. They've already proven that the are incapable of critical thought. As such they probably won't be able to replace their destroyed world view with any other.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2006-12-13 03:43pm

edit: damn. "...tell me to my faith that you can..." should be "...tell me to my face that you can..."

Chiaroscuro · Post by **Chiaroscuro** » 2006-12-13 04:11pm

Yeah, Darth Servo is right--I've had several Christians tell me that any sinner can get into heaven, as long as he accepts Jesus. However, any extremely moral Jew, Muslim, or Buddhist--heaven forbid atheist or agnostic--is out of luck and will go straight to hell.
How they manage to believe that this is possible, I have no idea. But in a way, A might be as damaging--or at least, as upsetting to them--as B. Their self-confidence is only bolstered by believing that they are the chosen ones, the enlightened ones, and that their religion is the only way to get to heaven.
I think it's impossible to prove the non-existence of god anyway. It's just the much more logically feasible option.

Feil · Post by **Feil** » 2006-12-13 04:40pm

Chiaroscuro wrote:Yeah, Darth Servo is right--I've had several Christians tell me that any sinner can get into heaven, as long as he accepts Jesus. However, any extremely moral Jew, Muslim, or Buddhist--heaven forbid atheist or agnostic--is out of luck and will go straight to hell.
How they manage to believe that this is possible, I have no idea. But in a way, A might be as damaging--or at least, as upsetting to them--as B. Their self-confidence is only bolstered by believing that they are the chosen ones, the enlightened ones, and that their religion is the only way to get to heaven.

Natural selection. Those religions which provide a powerful reason for people to stay in the religion, and, more importantly, indoctrinate their children in the religion, are selectively favoured over those which allow people to choose their own path.

Would you, after all, let your child choose to go to hell and be tortured forever? Of course not--you bring him up in the church so that he will go to heaven and be happy with you for eternity.

Superman wrote:Of course they would. Denial, in general, makes up a huge part of faith. How gay bashers many are closet homosexuals? How many rally against alcohol but secretly drink? How many fight against the perversion of pornography but secretly jerk off to it? The religion may as well be called "Denialism."

VADER: Your Pastor never told you the truth about your God.

FUNDIE: He told me enough! He told me God will send me to hell if I don't believe!

VADER: No... there is no God.

FUNDIE: No. No. That's not true! That's impossible!

VADER: Search your feelings.... You know it to be true.

FUNDIE: No! NO! NOOOOOOOOO!

---

Couldn't resist

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2006-12-13 05:59pm

Feil wrote:Natural selection. Those religions which provide a powerful reason for people to stay in the religion, and, more importantly, indoctrinate their children in the religion, are selectively favoured over those which allow people to choose their own path.

Would you, after all, let your child choose to go to hell and be tortured forever? Of course not--you bring him up in the church so that he will go to heaven and be happy with you for eternity.

Ah, such lovely irony that evolution's most outspoken opponents are living proof if it in action.

Ravencrow · Post by **Ravencrow** » 2006-12-13 06:20pm

(B)

I think fundies can accept the idea that God is not caring since he has been portrayed as a heartless unmovable judge. Fundies only care about going to heaven, and wearing it as a badge that they have a 'pass' to go straight there after they die. I don't think they care about the nature of God. If he doesn't exist, then there's no afterlife and I think that's what they would hate to think and they would lose their purpose.

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2006-12-13 06:26pm

Ravencrow wrote:(B)

I think fundies can accept the idea that God is not caring since he has been portrayed as a heartless unmovable judge. Fundies only care about going to heaven, and wearing it as a badge that they have a 'pass' to go straight there after they die. I don't think they care about the nature of God. If he doesn't exist, then there's no afterlife and I think that's what they would hate to think and they would lose their purpose.

B!

While Fundies may exist on the lifeblood of fear of eternal punishment at the hands of a vindictive omnipotence, proving beyond a doubt that he DOES exist and some people DO go to hell would still open things up to interpertation. If everyone woke up and realized beyond a shadow of a doubt that there was no such God, such as--I dunno, time travel that'd let you go back and watch all the famous preachers and prophets going out, making this shit up, boozing it up with prostitutes and on the other hand witness firsthand the evolution of the planet from firey mudball to modern... that would crush them utterly.

I can prove something beyond a shadow of a doubt, make you understand it, but if you willfully lie to yourself then you don't have to believe anything. People who are willing to do that are outliers. I think religion would dry up quite nicely without a belief in God though.

Haruko · Post by **Haruko** » 2006-12-13 07:04pm

Seems to me obvious him not existing would be worse, because if he just doesn't care, there's still hope, and he does still exist!

I fear that a bunch of people would, as one fundie put it via IM, go "buck wild insane and brake a lot of laws".

The Vortex Empire · Post by **The Vortex Empire** » 2006-12-13 07:18pm

I'm thinking that God not existing would be infinitely worse for a fundy. With God not caring, he at least still exists, but God not existing would shatter their worldview forever. If he did exist, but didn't care, they would still be overjoyed and would rub it in us atheist's faces.

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2006-12-13 09:31pm

Haruko wrote:Seems to me obvious him not existing would be worse, because if he just doesn't care, there's still hope, and he does still exist!

I fear that a bunch of people would, as one fundie put it via IM, go "buck wild insane and brake a lot of laws".

Yes, but then they'd fall under the jurisdiction of our secular laws and be put into prison. Huzzah!

PrettyBurn · Post by **PrettyBurn** » 2006-12-14 12:34am

To a fundemental Christian, it really doesn't matter what god actually does because they have created an image of what they believe in as god that doesn't depend on the actual god acting a certain way or even existing.

However, for a truly religious person who cares and tries to understand belief in god, the first seems like it would be much more devastating. The knowledge that yes, humanity and the world was created by a higher power but that humanity is so pointless and inconsequential that god has tossed us a side and doesn't give a shit seems to me to be much scarier than the idea that we truly are self reliant individuals and that all can be explained through science. At least the second idea gives us free will and some measure of control over our own lives.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2006-12-14 10:28am

God not existing. To the more touchy feely fundies and to many others, a non caring god would be an extreme blow....but there is hope that God can be changed in his point of view. Sure, it's wishful thinking but it is a hope.

No God? There is no hope of change, there is no hope of an out. It literally shatters every single belief that there is something out there looking out for you. It shatters the thoughts of God being a guardian for whatever and forces one to confront their actions now or later as to what was rational and what was completely for the thought of a now imaginary being that never existed.

One can be dealt with on the hopeless hope that you can change God, the other leaves no such alternative.

CaptJodan · Post by **CaptJodan** » 2006-12-14 10:41am

Not in existance.

I forsee large hordes of people, be them Christians or others from around the world who are so insecure and so devoted to their beliefs actually choosing to commit suicide if it was ever magically proven to them that God didn't exist. They're just that fragile. Those that don't might turn to a kind of "Since no one is looking over my shoulder I'll do what I want" type of attitude. The moderates would, of course, likely be fine but it would probably still be a blow.

If God didn't care, then many of the extreme fundies would just point out to the rest of the population how we've failed God and we have to repent even more. Humanity has to be special and personally noticed by God. You can't just get into Heaven willy nilly. (it also begs the question what personally pisses God off? Does taking his name in vain count?) It ultimately would provide fuel for the fire for the fundies to try harder to appease the sky pixie.

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Which more Devestating: No God or Not Caring?

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Which more Devestating: No God or Not Caring?

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