Battlestar Galactica music video

[Stark]

Yeah, it's worth pointing out that when people say 'hey make a ST series but make it x y and z', people say 'why bother calling it ST'.

[Adrian McNair]

It was enjoyed in the same sense that the original Dukes of Hazzard was enjoyed. It was not created with the intent of winning any Academy Awards. It was intended from the start to be light entertainment.

Then it clearly isn't worthy of such vocal defences from a bunch of starry-eyed nostalgic individuals who are clearly in denial. If it's only light entertainment, then Moore is fully within his rights to improve upon the failure.

What "rigid old guard" are you referring to? Is it so unreasonable to point out that if he wanted to change the concept that much, then perhaps he should have just created an original series rather than trying to cash in on 1970s nostalgia without actually producing a nostalgic product?

The rigid old guard I am referring to are the fans, like Poe, who are unwilling to recognise the series right to existence based on a few ignorant assumptions on what they see on the surface.

Moore saw that the original series had plenty of room for improvement and therefore decided to go in a different direction. A more rewarding and deeper direction.

The problem here is not some kind of mindless worship of the old show as you seem to suggest; I am quite willing to recognize its flaws. The problem is simply that to some people, Moore's shameless marketing ploy is offensive.

And they can remain in the past. They are in a dwindling minority. Their views are delusional and frankly irrelevant. They're railing against the hurricane of inevitability as far as I'm concerned.

[Uraniun235]

It was enjoyed in the same sense that the original Dukes of Hazzard was enjoyed. It was not created with the intent of winning any Academy Awards. It was intended from the start to be light entertainment.

Then it clearly isn't worthy of such vocal defences from a bunch of starry-eyed nostalgic individuals who are clearly in denial. If it's only light entertainment, then Moore is fully within his rights to improve upon the failure.

Are you saying that 'light entertainment' is inherently inferior to heavy drama? Because that's kinda what it seems like you're implying.

[Adrian McNair]

Are you saying that 'light entertainment' is inherently inferior to heavy drama?

Not at all. Both types of presentation have their place. It's just that in this context, Moore has helped to rejuvenate a genre which in its televised form had only up until that point known the Stargate franchise or the latest Berman and Braga export from their crap factory.

oBSG is ancient history now. Oh, don't get me wrong I can acknowledge that without it nBSG might not even exist. But it is simply not worth being elevated on a pedestal that others cannot inherit.

[Stark]

So you're saying the genre wouldn't have been 'rejuvenated' if the show hadn't been called BSG?

[Adrian McNair]

So you're saying the genre wouldn't have been 'rejuvenated' if the show hadn't been called BSG?

nBSG came at the right time and place. I am certain that if someone else had possessed the vision and the resolve to bring their idea to life, then it may have occured under a different banner.

As it stands nBSG is here to stay and is welcomed for it by most people who don't have an axe to grind or are unreasonably bitter.

[Stark]

Don't answer the question, or anything. Do you consider the name an essential part of the show's success? Why?

I hear people who don't like bombastic preachy shows are 'unreasonably bitter'.

[RedImperator]

What "rigid old guard" are you referring to? Is it so unreasonable to point out that if he wanted to change the concept that much, then perhaps he should have just created an original series rather than trying to cash in on 1970s nostalgia without actually producing a nostalgic product?

The fundamental concept is the same. There's no way Moore could have made this series and called it something else (even assuming the names and ship designs changed) without people rightly calling him on reusing BSG's premise.

The problem here is not some kind of mindless worship of the old show as you seem to suggest; I am quite willing to recognize its flaws. The problem is simply that to some people, Moore's shameless marketing ploy is offensive.

How is reinterpreting a premise a marketing ploy, especially if the original failed to make effective use of it? That's been happening in fiction for pretty much as long as people have been telling stories, to which the hundreds of Shakespeare adaptations not set in seventeenth century England would attest.

The real slap in the face, from what I've been able to gather, is that in the late 90s and early 00s, oBSG seemed perpetually close to a revival that would have been a continuation of the original series (possibly based on Richard Hatch's ideas), and then suddenly nBSG came along and pretty much made that impossible for at least the next twenty years. That, yeah, I can see why people are mad. But taking the premise of an old story and reimagining it is standard fiction practice; hell, oBSG itself was more or less Glen Larson's reimagination of parts of the Book of Mormon.

[Stark]

The real slap in the face, from what I've been able to gather, is that in the late 90s and early 00s, oBSG seemed perpetually close to a revival that would have been a continuation of the original series

Seriously? That's crazy talk. Was it standard fanboy 'we want it back' stuff, or actual studio intentions?

[RedImperator]

The real slap in the face, from what I've been able to gather, is that in the late 90s and early 00s, oBSG seemed perpetually close to a revival that would have been a continuation of the original series

Seriously? That's crazy talk. Was it standard fanboy 'we want it back' stuff, or actual studio intentions?

I don't know how much was rumor and how much was fact. Hatch I know made a two minute teaser for a revived series and got, I think, oral commitments from most of the surviving actors to reprise their roles, but so far as I know the money wasn't there. I also read (on Wiki I believe, so take it for what it's worth and no more), that there was a deal in the works for a revival which fell apart in early 2002, which was when Moore came in.

It's hard to track what actually happened and what was just rumor, and it's made worse by the fact I can't remember some of the details. I'm sure someone else could fill the rest in.

[Adrian McNair]

Don't answer the question, or anything. Do you consider the name an essential part of the show's success? Why?

I'll do it anyway. The name is ultimately irrelevant. It is an established one that will undoubtably attract attention. Moore used it as a platform to tell his story. I consider the characters and quality writing to be an essential part of the shows triumph.

I hear people who don't like bombastic preachy shows are 'unreasonably bitter'.

But how else should the issues be explored if not in a confrontational fashion? To do so raises awareness of these topics and generates thought-provoking storylines that in turn engender debates. Would you rather prefer that Enterprise was revived, with its shallow one-dimensional archetypes and mere skin deep explorations of important topics?

[Stark]

I'll do it anyway.

Are you an idiot? That was *sarcasm*, because your original response was a complete dodge.

The name is ultimately irrelevant. It is an established one that will undoubtably attract attention. Moore used it as a platform to tell his story. I consider the characters and quality writing to be an essential part of the shows triumph.

So... he didn't have to call it BSG to 'rejuvenate the genre'? Thanks.

But how else should the issues be explored if not in a confrontational fashion? To do so raises awareness of these topics and generates thought-provoking storylines that in turn engender debates. Would you rather prefer that Enterprise was revived, with its shallow one-dimensional archetypes and mere skin deep explorations of important topics?

Sorry dude, but saying 'every scifi fan except those with axes to grind or unreasonably bitter people like nBSG' is just marking you a fanboy. People have this thing called 'taste', and not everyone likes the same thing. nBSG is a fine enough show, but plenty of people don't like it without being oBSG freaks or 'unreasonably bitter'. You're living a pipe dream if you think otherwise. But hey, go on attacking me as 'unreasonably bitter' and a fan of shallow television why don't you - after all, all TRUE scifi fans love nBSG.

[Adrian McNair]

I'll do it anyway.

Are you an idiot? That was *sarcasm*, because your original response was a complete dodge.

I felt I had to address the point regardless, because it is a valid one. A dodge, how so?

Sorry dude, but saying 'every scifi fan except those with axes to grind or unreasonably bitter people like nBSG' is just marking you a fanboy. People have this thing called 'taste', and not everyone likes the same thing. nBSG is a fine enough show, but plenty of people don't like it without being oBSG freaks or 'unreasonably bitter'. You're living a pipe dream if you think otherwise.

I apologise for gushing. I made those comments in regards to the debate between the old-guard and the fans of the new series. Perhaps, I misphrased it. What I meant to say was that anyone who is willing to approach it with an open mind and without viewing it through a bitter prism may or may not welcome it. Is that more to your liking?

But hey, go on attacking me as 'unreasonably bitter' and a fan of shallow television why don't you - after all, all TRUE scifi fans love nBSG.

You are putting words in my mouth. You assume that I am including you within that spectrum. You are also assuming that I wish to confront you over this. You are incorrect on both counts. I was referring to individuals such as Poe when I made those remarks.

[Vympel]

Look on battlestar wiki for information on the failed attempts to bring oBSG back- in particular, oBSG fans might read the Bryan Singer involvement (concept art, new Cylon Centurions etc) and weep at what might have been. The history of the whole thing is pretty well defined.

Anyway- if Richard Hatch- the guy who pushed for the return of the old show- can get behind the new show and participate as a regular, important guest star and one of the best characters of the series, I find the vindictiveness levelled at nBSG by the old fans curious. If someone with that level of investment and history with the show can see what the shows about ...

As to calling the new show Battlestar Galactica.

I don't see how they could call it anything else. It borrows heavily from the original show, of course with many changes (and the most important ones are not sex-changes) that I think makes the story much better. He'd still get called on for borrowing the plot.

For example- man created the Cylons. That's far superior to "yeah, some race of lizzards built them" or whatever the oBSG explanation was.

But, more importantly, RDM clearly had a desire to do the story of Battlestar Galactica in a way that is not complete bullshit (see his comments about the Voyager abortion). Because that's what oBSG did, as Red Imperator pointed out with the stupid casino planet in the very pilot of the series.

As others have noted, it's unfair to call it a "marketing ploy"- oBSG, just like Voyager, lied to the audience. nBSG is true to its premise. oBSG (ad Voyager) simply weren't.

[Stark]

Aside Red's comment that the oBSG nutcases would cry 'zomg BSG ripoff' anyway, I just don't see how Moore's show wouldn't have been just as good and successful without the name. Beyond the early hysteria around the mini etc, of course.

My lack of interest in nBSG is coloured by my extreme distaste for forced preachy 'drama' - when I saw the 'Adama risks all to find the almost-certainly dead Starbuck' episode, my eyes nearly rolled out of my head - but the only people I know who watch it are scifi fans. I'm not convinced it's some kind of ubershow, since 'lighter' scifi (SG1, for instance) seems much more widely recieved.

And yeah, I figure when people talk about those who are 'unreasonably bitter', they're talking about me. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

[Vympel]

My lack of interest in nBSG is coloured by my extreme distaste for forced preachy 'drama' - when I saw the 'Adama risks all to find the almost-certainly dead Starbuck' episode, my eyes nearly rolled out of my head -

What was preachy about that episode? When I think "preachy", I think about Picard (or anyone else's) "I'm so knowledgeable" monologues to the foolish primitive aliens in TNG.

[Adrian McNair]

My lack of interest in nBSG is coloured by my extreme distaste for forced preachy 'drama' - when I saw the 'Adama risks all to find the almost-certainly dead Starbuck' episode, my eyes nearly rolled out of my head - but the only people I know who watch it are scifi fans. I'm not convinced it's some kind of ubershow, since 'lighter' scifi (SG1, for instance) seems much more widely recieved.

Granted, that was a bit of a cliche but it was derived from the bond that ties them together. Roslin did give him the smackdown for confusing personal sentiments with his greater duties. He eventually caved in and was going to order the fleet to jump to the next system.

And yeah, I figure when people talk about those who are 'unreasonably bitter', they're talking about me. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

That is perfectly fine. You are fully entitled to your own views. I do not wish to challenge them and I am not under the illusion that I can sway all to my stance on nBSG.

[Stark]

What was preachy about that episode? When I think "preachy", I think about Picard (or anyone else's) "I'm so knowledgeable" monologues to the foolish primitive aliens in TNG.

Hey, I'm honest: by aiming higher, nBSG has to live up to higher expectations. All the 'you're burning the last of our avgas to look for a dead woman' and 'I can fly a broken bioship better than others can fly fully functional fighters' shit in a supposedly 'gritty' and 'dark' show just doesn't work. They're lameo character cliches (zomg Adama needs a familyzor) and they just don't work when your show is supposed to be 'realistic'. If you don't think 'always look for your friends at whatever cost to the entire human race' is preachy, I have to ask what is.

But hey, I don't HATE it, I just don't think it's the second fucking coming like every second person on the internet.

[Stofsk]

What was preachy about that episode? When I think "preachy", I think about Picard (or anyone else's) "I'm so knowledgeable" monologues to the foolish primitive aliens in TNG.

Hey, I'm honest: by aiming higher, nBSG has to live up to higher expectations. All the 'you're burning the last of our avgas to look for a dead woman' and 'I can fly a broken bioship better than others can fly fully functional fighters' shit in a supposedly 'gritty' and 'dark' show just doesn't work. They're lameo character cliches (zomg Adama needs a familyzor) and they just don't work when your show is supposed to be 'realistic'. If you don't think 'always look for your friends at whatever cost to the entire human race' is preachy, I have to ask what is.

So what? Roslin and Tigh both said they were nuts, and in the case of the former she gave Adama an executive order to discontinue the search, after pointing out the futility. Adama had an emotional investment in Starbuck - he considers her his surrogate daughter - and Lee of course has feelings for her as well. I find nothing outlandish with both of them being dogged in their search for Starbuck and refusing to give up. You may scoff and mock it all you like, but there actually are people out there who would go above and beyond for someone they consider family. Tigh was being objective, but I'm sure his personal distaste for Starbuck coloured his recommendation to withdraw. Roslin, on the other hand, has no stake in the matter and told them, quite rightly as you pointed out, that they're burning their avgas supply and that she was more than likely dead.

Having two different viewpoints on such a matter actually is realistic.

Starbuck learning to fly the Raider was less easy to swallow, and I'll grant you that point of criticism.

But hey, I don't HATE it, I just don't think it's the second fucking coming like every second person on the internet.

I agree with you, actually, and made a similar point earlier in this thread.

[Vympel]

The problem with Starbuck flying the Raider was not that she learnt to fly it- it's that she managed to avoid getting shot down by Apollo. Not only would totaly unfamiliarity with the craft make that highly unlikey- the fact that, you know- she can only see straight fucking forward and has no vision behind her (where Apollo was firing from, as any fighter pilot will) is slightly more of a problem- she should've had absolutely no idea where the hell he was coming from or where he was going.

[Darth Wong]

It was enjoyed in the same sense that the original Dukes of Hazzard was enjoyed. It was not created with the intent of winning any Academy Awards. It was intended from the start to be light entertainment.

Then it clearly isn't worthy of such vocal defences from a bunch of starry-eyed nostalgic individuals who are clearly in denial. If it's only light entertainment, then Moore is fully within his rights to improve upon the failure.

What "rigid old guard" are you referring to? Is it so unreasonable to point out that if he wanted to change the concept that much, then perhaps he should have just created an original series rather than trying to cash in on 1970s nostalgia without actually producing a nostalgic product?

The rigid old guard I am referring to are the fans, like Poe, who are unwilling to recognise the series right to existence based on a few ignorant assumptions on what they see on the surface.

Moore saw that the original series had plenty of room for improvement and therefore decided to go in a different direction. A more rewarding and deeper direction.

The problem here is not some kind of mindless worship of the old show as you seem to suggest; I am quite willing to recognize its flaws. The problem is simply that to some people, Moore's shameless marketing ploy is offensive.

And they can remain in the past. They are in a dwindling minority. Their views are delusional and frankly irrelevant. They're railing against the hurricane of inevitability as far as I'm concerned.

For a while there, I made the mistake of assuming that you were actually interested in discussing the merits of the argument at hand. Now I see from your absurdly over-the-top rhetoric that you're just interested in wanking about OMG NeoBSG roxxxx!!!!! "Hurricane of inevitability"? Puh-lease.

PS. Pointing out that the new show is better-done than the old one doesn't mean anything. So much has changed in the world of TV production that it's truly an apples to oranges comparison. The real question is whether a good modern-style show could have been made while retaining more elements of the original.

[Spyder]

I also agree that the Starbuck/Raider episode was dumb, there's some amusment to be had in the concept of humans parasitizing living raiders, but it's still pretty stupid. That and the whole networking computers = virus attack thing kind of grate on me.

The networking thing actually breaks continuity. It was established in the mini-series that the problem was Baltar's program that Six had rewritten. A virus would then spread into every system it was connected to and could then be activated remotely. Galactaca and the old vipers were unaffected because the virus never spread and has subsequently been purged from the systems.

Now it seems as though they get problems when hooking two or more computers together, regardless.

[ray245]

Hmm...is it just me, or do I only notice by now that there's no egyptian culture at all in this nBSG? I mean the oBSG did film Kobol on egypt,giza...

Which brings back one question. Would the kind of oBSG budget be better managed under Moore? The budget is huge by today's standard, even the special effects are better than star trek TNG.

By today's standard, the budget should be around 2-3 million per episode, and around 6-9 million for the pilot. Even by comparision, the budget is still several more times more than any other TV series in that era.

[Lord Poe]

=snicker= I was wondering why most of the nBSG fanboys here all sounded like drones of one another. They're reading off the same script the Borg Queen himself wrote:

On the philosophy behind reinventing "Battlestar" My overarching feeling about the original was that it had to be true to the roots of its own premise. The premise is the same as ours. The Cylons destroy the entire human race and only a handful of people survive. It's a scary premise, but within the first couple hours [on the original show], they go off to the casino planet. They retell the "Guns of Navarone," they retell "Shane." It became popcorn stuff, which I think is at odds with the premise of the show itself. The entire destruction of their race, then they're hanging out with casino showgirls?

Link 1

I shouldn't be surprised. This is the guy that killed Kirk in the lamest way possible, after all.

18. CA Chat: Was Starbuck made female to add an "X-Files" sexual tension with Apollo to the story? I know you said you wanted to explore women in the military but characters like Shane Vansen and Samantha Carter have been around for some time. Is there anything new to explore?

Ron Moore: Making Starbuck female was primarily done to mix things up and add a different element into the relationship. Certain sexual tension will be there but taking it into different directions was the central idea, not just sex.

LOL!! Yeah, making Starbuck female, then retaining every male quality the old one had adds a "different element". Of course its not for the Apollo/Starbuck slash stories.

21. CA Chat: Why wasn't Athena used instead of Starbuck as the lead female character? With the changes you've made, certainly making her NOT Apollo's sister would have been easy enough.

Ron Moore: I couldn't figure out what to do with Athena and frankly I don't think they figured it out in the original show either. Turning her into a pilot would have meant creating a completely new character anyway so why do it?

Translation: "Making original characters is hard!"

Link 2

And yes, Adrian, I am ignoring you.

[Stark]

So what? Roslin and Tigh both said they were nuts, and in the case of the former she gave Adama an executive order to discontinue the search, after pointing out the futility. Adama had an emotional investment in Starbuck - he considers her his surrogate daughter - and Lee of course has feelings for her as well. I find nothing outlandish with both of them being dogged in their search for Starbuck and refusing to give up. You may scoff and mock it all you like, but there actually are people out there who would go above and beyond for someone they consider family.

And I'm sorry, but he put the fleet at risk and wasted valuable resources on what would have been a worthless search if Starbuck hadn't had character shields. 'Go beyond for family' is a cliche, and totally inappropriate in the level of jeopardy the fleet found itself in. Sure, if it's your mate getting lost home on the way home from the pub you'd go look: if the fate of the entire human race rested on your decisions, things are a little bit different. Again, it's only a problem because nBSG is trying to be so gritty: it wouldn't have been out of place in lighter shows like Firefly. Every time someone said 'hey dude without that avgas we're all going to die' and Adama said 'noooo I lurve her we must find her this is depth!' I was disgusted. That's actually my most common reaction to any of the forced drama in nBSG: they're just selfish wankers I'd like to see shot. I can't enjoy a show like that, but I can appreciate it from a technical perspective.

Starbuck learning to fly the Raider was less easy to swallow, and I'll grant you that point of criticism.

Like Vympel said, it's not flying it that was the worst part (although I still think that's deeply fucking stupid since to my knowledge they're not designed for a pilot at all. It's that she TOTALLY DEFEATED Apollo in CQB (in seconds, if I remember) with a damaged fighter she knew nothing about and had no instruments and no vision. Sorry, but WANKWANKWANKWANKWANK doesn't even cover it. Is this the gritty darkness I've heard about?

I agree with you, actually, and made a similar point earlier in this thread.

It's actually rare to meet nBSG fans that are as reasonable as the guys here: most people want to stone you and throw you down the well if you don't love it like a woman.