"Races don't exist"

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Zac Naloen
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"Races don't exist"

Post by Zac Naloen »

Okay, so i'm a supporter of this argument, I've read the reports about how the genetic differences between the so called races are statistically insignificant.. But i've come across this guy Steven Sailor who has written several articles on the web trying to debunk this, my question is. Is what he's saying valid? Or does the genetic evidence trump his many many written diatribes on the subject?

Here's the article the link above leads too : -

Cavalli-Sforza II: Seven Dumb Ideas about Race

By Steve Sailer

Race is a topic of such enormous importance that it's essential to think clearly about it. Yet much of the intelligentsia now attempts to deal with the problem by defining race as merely a mass hallucination afflicting the entire human race - other than we few members of the Great and the Good. As we saw in last week's column on the schizophrenic writings of the leading population geneticist, Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, much of the professoriat now publicly deny the very reality of race. Prominent anthropologist C. Loring Brace asserts, "There is no such thing as a biological entity that warrants the term 'race.'" The American Association of Physical Anthropologists recently announced: "… old biological concepts of race no longer provide scientifically valid distinctions…" Similarly, the American Anthropological Association proclaimed " … differentiating species into biologically defined 'races' has proven meaningless and unscientific as a way of explaining variation…”

Well, wishing isn't going to make race vanish into thin air. Let's review some of the major myths about race.
If races exist, then one must be supreme.

Much of the Race Does Not Exist cant stems from the following logic (if you can call it logic): “If there really are different racial groups, then one must be The Master Race, which means -- oh my God – that Hitler Was Right! Therefore, we must promote whatever ideas most confuse the public about race. Otherwise, they will learn the horrible truth and they'll all vote Nazi.”

Look, this is one big non-sequiter: Of course, there are different racial groups. And of course their members tend to inherit certain different genes, on average, than the members of other racial groups. And that means racial groups will differ, on average, in various innate capabilities. But that also means that no group can be supreme at all jobs. To be excellent at one skill frequently implies being worse at something else. So, there can't be a Master Race. Sports fans can cite countless examples. Men of West African descent monopolize the Olympic 100m dash, but their explosive musculature, which is so helpful in sprinting, weighs them down in distance running, where they are also-rans. Similarly, there are far more Samoans in the National Football League than Chinese, simply because Samoans tend to be much, much bigger. But precisely because Samoans are so huge, they'll never do as well as the Chinese in gymnastics.
Every person falls into a single clear-cut racial group.

This one is so silly that I doubt that anybody who has thought about race in the real world for more than ten minutes believes this. Nobody can agree on how many racial groups there are, exactly who is in each one, or what to call them.
Since nobody can agree on how many racial groups there are, exactly who is in each one, or what to call them, then race does not exist.

This one's equally daft. Outside of mathematics, and of human inventions like the law, categories almost always fall across continuous dimensions. Where does "young" end and "old" begin? It all depends on the situation. For example, among female gymnasts, 18 is "old." Among architects, 45 is "young." Yet that does not mean that "age" is meaningless. Further, categories are typically fuzzy. Few people are 100% "sick" or 100% "well." But "health" is still a useful concept.

The best example of the fuzziness of natural categories is the concept of "extended family." All the criticisms made about the fuzziness of racial groups apply in spades to extended families. How many extended families do you belong to? Well, at least two: your mom's and your dad's. But they each belonged to their parents' two extended families, so maybe you belong to four. And your grandparents each belonged to two …

And what are the boundaries of your various extended families? If the question at hand is who you'd give a spare kidney to, you'd probably draw the limits rather narrowly. But, when making up your Christmas card list, you probably toss in the occasional third cousin, twice removed. And exactly what's the appropriate name for all these extended families anyway?

In fact, extended families are even less clear-cut than racial groups. Yet, nobody goes around smugly claiming that extended families don't exist.

But why is extended family such a perfect analogy for race? Because it's not an analogy. They are the same thing: kin, individuals united by common descent. There's no natural law defining where extended families end. A racial group is merely an extended family (often an extremely extended family) that inbreeds to some extent. It's this tendency to marry within the group that makes racial groups somewhat more coherent, cohesive, and longer lasting than smaller-scale extended families.
Genetic differences between the races can't exist because there hasn't been enough time for them to evolve in the 50,000 to 200,000 years since modern humans first emerged from Africa.

The popularity of this argument is bizarre, since genetic differences between the races are written on the faces of the people you see every day. If there wasn't enough time for these racially characteristic traits to evolve, how exactly did they come into existence? Magic? It's particularly amusing to hear paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould assert this since his one major contribution to science has been to document that evolution sometimes occurs at the speed of revolution.

In the History and Geography of Human Genes, Cavalli-Sforza calculates the surprisingly short time in which a version of a gene that leads to more offspring can spread from 1% to 99% of the population. If a rare variant of a gene produces just 1% more surviving offspring, it will become nearly universal in a human group in 11,500 years. But, if it provides 10% more "reproductive fitness," it will come to dominate in just 1,150 years. A classic example is the gene for lactose-tolerance. It was almost nonexistent until humans started milking cattle about 10,000 years ago. Today, its prevalence ranges from negligible among East Asians to 97% among Danes.
Race is only skin deep.

I'm sure this bit of conventional wisdom is most comforting to Jews suffering from Tay-Sachs disease, to blacks enduring sickle cell anemia, and to American Indians battling alcoholism. In reality, there is absolutely nothing that restricts racial differences to "mere cosmetics." Races can differ in any of the ways that families can differ from each other.
Most variation is within racial groups, not between racial groups. Two members of the same race are likely to differ from each other more than the average member of their race differs from the average member of another race.

Sure, but so what? No single human category can account for a majority of all the many ways humans differ from each other. Try substituting other categories like "age:" "Most variation is within age groups, not between age groups." Yup, that's true, too. But, it doesn't mean that Age Does Not Exist.

You often hear that between-group racial differences only account for 15% of genetic variation. This number comes from a 1972 study by Richard Lewontin of 17 blood types, comparing variation between continental-scale races and between national-scale racial groups (e.g., Swedes vs. Italians). Now, blood types are, I suppose, important, but they hardly represent all we want to know about human genetic diversity. Certain other traits are known to be more racially determined -- the figure for skin color, not surprisingly, is 60%. What the overall number is for all the important genes remains unknown.

Still, let's assume that Lewontin's 15% solution is widely applicable. That's like going to a casino that has American Indian and African American croupiers, and 85% of the time the roulette spins are random, but 15% of the time the ball always comes up red for Indian croupiers and black for the black croupiers -- pretty useful information, huh?
Most of the human race's genetic variation is among black Africans.

This chestnut is true only for junk genes, the DNA that doesn't do anything. Junk genes are highly useful to population geneticists tracing the genealogies of racial groups, but they don't affect anything in the real world.

Then, are black Africans highly diverse physically? Well, that depends upon who you are lumping together. There are indeed some highly unusual peoples in Africa, but almost none of them were brought to America as slaves. The most genetically distinct people in sub-Saharan Africa are the Khoisan. These are the yellowish-brown, tongue-clicking Bushmen and Hottentots of the Southern African wastelands, the remnants of a great race that once dominated most of Africa before the blacks ethnically cleansed them from the more desirable lands. The most striking contrast in Africa is between the tiny Pygmies and the ultra-tall herding tribes of East Africa. But except for the 7'7", 190-pound basketball novelty Manute Bol, few of either group made it to America. In contrast, the West African tribes that did provide the vast majority of American slaves are relatively homogenous. Cavalli-Sforza sums up the situation on the ground like this, "… differences between most sub-Saharan Africans other than Khoisan and Pygmies seem rather small."

This does not exhaust the list of dumb ideas about race that I've collected. But it does give a taste of how anthropologists try to make race disappear by closing their eyes and wishing. Well, race won't go away, because it's an inevitable outgrowth of family. Our only hope to manage the problems of race is to study it honestly.
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Post by Rye »

His points seem pretty accurate, and the common ancestry of racial groups is how I've always thought of it, in fact, my main issue with race as categorisation is it's not comprehensive enough.
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Post by Big Orange »

I can see great genetic variation even within the “homogeneous” White Caucasian population of Britain, with some British Caucasians looking Nordic and others looking much different as if they had come from Southern Europe or even North Africa. But I doubt biodiversity genuinely impacts things like individual behaviour or intelligence, since that is based on how somebody used his/her individual potential and learning.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

He's full of shit.

I wonder if he can tell the difference between an Indonesian, someone from Vietnam, a Mongol and a Siberian. Picking out random points on a continuum does not a race make.

That, and there's nothing genetically backing his claims, or anthropologically.
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Post by Ariphaos »

"Every person falls into a single clear-cut racial group. "

BS much?

There are points - I mean, a pregnant black woman has different dietary concerns up north here than a white woman - but that's about as deep as you're going to find it. Slight differences in performance, dietary and medical need that tend to vary from race to race, and that information can be useful - but the fact remains that no single genetic variation is unique to any group in the world.

Plus, racial differences are now understood to account for only 4% of genetic diversity, as I understand it. It's there, but it doesn't look so clear cut to me.
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Post by Winston Blake »

Xeriar wrote:"Every person falls into a single clear-cut racial group. "

BS much?
That was just one of his strawmen - the dialectical approach is a bit hard to make out in quote formatting.

All this guy is doing is attacking a strawman and then stating the obvious. No wonder he says this stuff as if he's surprised nobody has thought of it before. AV's link makes it crystal clear:
3. There is great genetic diversity within all human populations. Pure races, in the sense of genetically homogenous populations, do not exist in the human species today, nor is there any evidence that they have ever existed in the past.
When people say 'race doesn't exist', they mean 'pure race doesn't exist', not 'the colloquial meaning of race doesn't exist'. I'm definitely no biologist, but as I understand it pure races would be more like subspecies, for which no human population has near enough genetic isolation. I wonder if this guy realises that despite morphological differences, chihuahuas and Great Danes are still in the same subspecies.
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Post by R. U. Serious »

Steve Sailer... I think he's trying to make himself a name by dressing up POR (plain old racism) in sympathetic looking pseudo-science. If you want to find out more about his character I think his exchange with Gladwell (The blink/tipping point guy) is pretty instructing:

It starts with Gladwell commenting on recent "racist"-labels on prominent people and their babbling:
http://gladwell.typepad.com/gladwellcom ... _raci.html

Steve can't resist to "set the record straight" (see the comments) *ahem*. And the exchange goes on like this:
http://gladwell.typepad.com/gladwellcom ... c_fri.html
http://gladwell.typepad.com/gladwellcom ... _surp.html
http://gladwell.typepad.com/gladwellcom ... typin.html

I think Gladwell makes some very convincing arguments, coming to the conclusion that: "I think, is that this is what racial prejudice is: it is the irrational elevation of race-based considerations over other, equally or more relevant factors."
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

The guy is full of fallacies or misrepresentations, or simply trying to, as you say, put racism in a suit and dust it off as intelligentsia. He's really got no more of a case than me saying liberals and conservatives are distinct races, because they appeal to certain types of people who, typically, go on to breed with one another.

Whoopy fuckin' doo. His biology is atrocious too. By his reckoning, separate breeds of dog may as well be whole different species!
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Post by Surlethe »

Much of the Race Does Not Exist cant stems from the following logic (if you can call it logic): “If there really are different racial groups, then one must be The Master Race, which means -- oh my God – that Hitler Was Right! Therefore, we must promote whatever ideas most confuse the public about race. Otherwise, they will learn the horrible truth and they'll all vote Nazi.”
Where the fuck did he get this from?

That said, the way I think about racial differences is analogous to a car: most of what you see is the chassis and the painting on the top, but that's just a tiny percentage of the detail and complexity that goes into the rest of the car. Two cars of different "races" -- that is, have differently painted and shaped chassis -- still would have exactly the same innards. People don't seem to realize that the genetic recipe governs far more than just external details; we focus on those disproportionately since that's what we see, but there's no reason to conclude that just what we see is significant in the grand scheme of the genetic code.

EDIT: Or, put another way in a thread a while back,

Very little part of the genetic code controls the most visible features; a lot of the code actually has to do with running it, and so would control minute parts of the body. It's sort of like a car: if you're going to encode the information required to run the car, the paint job and body frame would only take up a minute part -- most of the encoding would be concerned with how the car runs, keeping the engine going, etc. -- but those are the most visible parts of the car.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Exactly. Get a skeleton for each "race" on Earth within the human species. Now tell me which is a black African, a white Caucasian and a Middle-Eastern and Far Eastern frame.
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Post by Big Orange »

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Exactly. Get a skeleton for each "race" on Earth within the human species. Now tell me which is a black African, a white Caucasian and a Middle-Eastern and Far Eastern frame.
Then why did anthropologists take skull measurements from different regional ethnic groups in the 19th century? Although I gather that is now a discredited "science" and the biological variables like bone structure are more linked to an individual person, than something as broad as an ethnic group.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Sounds like phrenology, which is bullshit anyway. The differences between individuals would be more readily noticeable than between different supposed "races".

Bringing up a near two century old technique to refute modern arguments isn't a good idea either, if anyone were seriously going to propose that. Back then æther theory was accepted in physics.
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Post by God Fearing Atheist »

Admiral Valdemar wrote:That, and there's nothing genetically backing his claims, or anthropologically.
No? You might try (for example):

Tang, H. et al. 2005. Genetic Structure, Self-Identified Race/Ethnicity, and Confounding in Case-Control Association Studies. American Journal of Human Genetics 76: 268–275.

ABSTRACT: We have analyzed genetic data for 326 microsatellite markers that were typed uniformly in a large multiethnic population-based sample of individuals as part of a study of the genetics of hypertension (Family Blood Pressure Program). Subjects identified themselves as belonging to one of four major racial/ethnic groups (white, African American, East Asian, and Hispanic) and were recruited from 15 different geographic locales within the United States and Taiwan. Genetic cluster analysis of the microsatellite markers produced four major clusters, which showed near-perfect correspondence with the four self-reported race/ethnicity categories. Of 3,636 subjects of varying race/ethnicity, only 5 (0.14%) showed genetic cluster membership different from their self-identified race/ethnicity. On the other hand, we detected only modest genetic differentiation between different current geographic locales within each race/ethnicity group. Thus, ancient geographic ancestry, which is highly correlated with self-identified race/ethnicity—as opposed to current residence—is the major determinant of genetic structure in the U.S. population. Implications of this genetic structure for case-control association studies are discussed.

Rosenberg, N. et al. 2002. Genetics Structure of Human Populations. Science 298: 2382-2385.

We studied human population structure using genotypes at 377 autosomal microsatellite loci in 1056 individuals from 52 populations. Within-population differences among individuals account for 93 to 95% of genetic variation; differences among major groups constitute only 3 to 5%. Nevertheless, without using prior information about the origins of individuals, we identified six main genetic clusters, five of which correspond to major geographic regions, and subclusters that often correspond to individual populations. General agreement of genetic and predefined populations suggests that self-reported ancestry can facilitate assessments of epidemiological risks but does not obviate the need to use genetic information in genetic association studies.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

And yet, genetically speaking, there is more variation in supposed racial groups that between them (Smedley and Smedley, 2005).

Given the genetic markers looked at to determine ancestry or "race" in forensics are so blurry as to make definitive Caucasian or Hispanic answers meaningless, there is little point in trying to accept race as valid (the amount of interbreeding alone is a good enough rebuttal). There are plenty of genetic factors that differ between populations, but not so much that makes a whole racial class distinct.

I'll trust the AAPA on this as something of an authority.
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Post by God Fearing Atheist »

Admiral Valdemar wrote:And yet, genetically speaking, there is more variation in supposed racial groups that between them (Smedley and Smedley, 2005).

Given the genetic markers looked at to determine ancestry or "race" in forensics are so blurry as to make definitive Caucasian or Hispanic answers meaningless, there is little point in trying to accept race as valid (the amount of interbreeding alone is a good enough rebuttal). There are plenty of genetic factors that differ between populations, but not so much that makes a whole racial class distinct.
This is what A.W.F. Edwards has called "Lewontin's Fallacy." If you'd like, I can explain the error in detail. Or, you can read:

Edwards, A.W.F. 2003. Human Genetic Diversity: Lewontin's Fallacy. Bioessays 25: 798-801.
I'll trust the AAPA on this as something of an authority.
Okay, and instead of arguing from the authority of a handful of AAPA members, i'll trust the empirical evidence.
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Post by God Fearing Atheist »

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Exactly. Get a skeleton for each "race" on Earth within the human species. Now tell me which is a black African, a white Caucasian and a Middle-Eastern and Far Eastern frame.
BTW, forensic anthropologists do this sort of thing all the time. According to George Gill, Professor of Anthropology at the University of Wyoming:

"First, I have found that forensic anthropologists attain a high degree of accuracy in determining geographic racial affinities (white, black, American Indian, etc.) by utilizing both new and traditional methods of bone analysis. Many well-conducted studies were reported in the late 1980s and 1990s that test methods objectively for percentage of correct placement. Numerous individual methods involving midfacial measurements, femur traits, and so on are over 80 percent accurate alone, and in combination produce very high levels of accuracy."
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Everything I've seen on Edwards paper seems to suggest geographical rather than purely biological race. In other words, it's not the traditional definition given the usual attempt at defining human races is more a socio-political trend more than a truly scientific one. In addition, there is still no clear consensus on this topic, while Edwards paper is interesting, there is no clear cut "humans can be defined as races" announcement from any major biological organisation I can think of, nor anthropological.

You'd think a year or two after such a compelling paper, there'd be a nice distinction by now, rather than an obvious debate over what this means. It is also just the one paper.
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Post by Boyish-Tigerlilly »

On the issue of Lewtonin's Fallacy, it's not really as cut-and-dry as that. There's controversy in the field as to the meaning of the fallacy as well as whether or not it is actually a valid fallacy in the context.

Richard Dawkins elaborates on his rejection of Lewtonin's Fallacy in his book the Ancestor's Tale. You can read some more on the subject here:

Lewtonin's Fallacy

Dawkins seems to be of the opinion that race does exist, but it's rather superficial and doesn't exist in the sense that many laypersons think it does. He, to an extent, is at odds with the AAA.

One problem I have seen is different organizations say different shit. I don't know what to believe anymore.

Here is the actual article by Dawkins:

Race and Creation

It is not the whole article, because it's a paid subscription.
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Post by PainRack »

One should also note that when doctors say that Africian Americans are more likely to suffer from Heart Disease, they don't neccesarily mean that this is exclusively the result of their genetic make-up.

It just means that factoring in age, diet and other variables, for that particular study, more Africian Americans got cardiovascular diseases. It could be a result of their genes, or it could be something else we don't know.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Which is precisely why I don't leap on one article as definitive proof. There are links, yes, with certain groups showing certain allele frequencies over others. But until the whole peer reviewed community claims race definitely exists and is in the context of what is traditionally accepted (just defining what most mean is tricky), then I don't see the major distinction.
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Post by God Fearing Atheist »

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Everything I've seen on Edwards paper seems to suggest geographical rather than purely biological race. In other words, it's not the traditional definition given the usual attempt at defining human races is more a socio-political trend more than a truly scientific one.
I honestly have no idea why you think Edwards is being more "geographical" than "biological," or even what that distinction is supposed to mean. After all, races, thus conceived, are populations of shared geographic ancestry that, genetically, form phenetic clusters.
In addition, there is still no clear consensus on this topic, while Edwards paper is interesting, there is no clear cut "humans can be defined as races" announcement from any major biological organisation I can think of, nor anthropological.

You'd think a year or two after such a compelling paper, there'd be a nice distinction by now, rather than an obvious debate over what this means. It is also just the one paper.
Like I said before Valdemar, it is empirical data, not widespread agreement, that settles scientific disputes. Have any of that?

And really, if we want to play the argue-from-authority game, I suspect that i'd 'win' that too. The most recent survey of scholarly opinion on race that i'm aware of (Lieberman et al. 1992) found that only 16% of biologists, 36% of developmental psychologists and 41% of physical anthropologists would agree that humans cannot be meaningfully partioned into races (however one defines that).

Let's also not forget how many leading lights of biological thought subscribe to the idea. Edwards, previously mentioned, who is a pioneer of human phylogenetics, James Crow, the late Ernst Mayr, yada-yada on and on....
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Post by Big Orange »

The writer of the article was going back to negative stereotype of Native Americans battling alcoholism - maybe Native Americans can't take booze, but alcoholism is more of reflection of severe social problems, since many Caucasians can't take their booze as well (and I have an almost nightly firsthand experience with my drunk mum).
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

God Fearing Atheist wrote:*Snip*
You misunderstand. It is not that I deny there are genetic differences between groups, for that is blindingly obvious. It's the definition here I'm contesting. The genetic differences between individuals, clusters, populations, whatever you want to use, is not related to the accepted concept of "race" or "ethnicity". It simply isn't accurate enough, because within the Big 5 (Caucasian, black, Asian etc.) accepted groups, there is far, far more variety. Africa alone has massive swathes of genetic groups varying distinctly from one to the next. How is this paper any use when it doesn't give me a concrete definition but simply points out that, unsurprisingly, certain geographically isolated people exhibit different genetics with superficial phenotypical differences?

I want to see a good classification for this concept before I accept "races", and not something else. Because if you start using that term when really you mean something different and more scientific, then what good is it to society? I personally see no reason to invoke the term and bring back those negative connotations when the salient point is more subtle.
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Post by Darth Wong »

To say that race does not exist at all is silly since there are certain obvious traits which are well-correlated to race (to make a pedantic example, there aren't too many natural African blondes).

However, this person is exaggerating the case of the opposing side in order to knock it down, ie- engaging in a strawman distortion. When people say that there is no such thing as race, they are engaging in a bit of hyperbole. We all know that if we took that literally, we shouldn't even be able to see any differences, and that's obviously not true. But when people say there's no such thing as race, they're simply saying that genetic variation within a race dwarfs the variations he can attempt to show between racial medians, even assuming such data is available. His use of Olympic athletes to prove his case is rather flawed to say the least, in part because world-class athletics represents the extreme end of the Bell curve and is rather useless for discussing bulk racial differences. Anyone remember the "overlapping Bell curve" argument I raised a while ago? It applies perfectly well here.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

That's pretty much my point of contention. The traditional idea we attach to race is not what is the issue here, but rather a more diverse and blurry distinction. I'd like to see a list of all possible groups officially drawn up. I can tell you now, it'd be dozens at the least, which doesn't really help things anymore than classifying people on other morphogenetic features.
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