Jesus Camp

[wautd]

Ah der Christian Jugend. Breeding mindless soldiers fur ze Fatherland

[Magus]

How do people reach the conclusion that the best time to provide instruction regarding faith is when the person will parrot what their parents say? What kind of faith is that, anyway? What is the religious victory in converting someone who will in all likely hood be grounded if they don't comply?

I was home schooled and I'm damn proud of it. That 75% of home schooled people are evangelical Christian makes me sick to my stomach, because I'm in such miserable company.

[Vympel]

That there is some depressing shit. Luckily, it's just America, and Europe doesn't brook that fanatical religious nonsense. They got their share of that already, and decided it was worth shit.

[AK_Jedi]

How do people reach the conclusion that the best time to provide instruction regarding faith is when the person will parrot what their parents say? What kind of faith is that, anyway? What is the religious victory in converting someone who will in all likely hood be grounded if they don't comply?

It's the kind of faith that isn't likely to be shaken. Unless these kids for some reason seriously re-examine their beliefs later in life, they will remain unquestioning believers.

In my case, even though my church was on the opposite side of the spectrum from those fundamentalist churches, I've had a hard time divorcing myself from my religion, even after I decided I was an atheist.

I thought it was interesting how much effort their parents expended to keep their kids indoctrinated. I doubt that these kids ever went to any secular social activities, or access to secular pop culture. Even when that girl wanted to play in the rain, her mom was awefully anxious to get her back inside.

[Vympel]

Wow. "If Harry Potter had been in the Old Testament, he would've been put to death!"

Heh. I've never actually heard that sort of thing actually said.

EDIT: of course- the spookiest fucking thing is them is worshipping the cardboard cutout of Dubya The WunderChimp.

EDIT EDIT: And hey, there's Ted Haggard, before he was revealed to be a raging hypocrite!

[CaptJodan]

Wow. "If Harry Potter had been in the Old Testament, he would've been put to death!"

Yeah, and you hear an "Amen" at the end of that statement come from the crowd. Ahh, the morality of the church. Where killing (fictional) moral upstanding children is considered something to aspire to.

In many places you turn you see kids trying to be kids and being slapped down for doing so. Their telling of a few ghost stories was particularly freaky as it was slapped down. The kid who said that he wasn't allowed to watch movies (but that his dad let him do so anyway. He has hope). That the girl couldn't be out in the rain for any length of time. It was amazing to watch as they widdled away at the childhood of this kids.

[K. A. Pital]

Shit, that carboard Bush prayer... "Ein Nation, Ein God, Ein Bush!" was just icing on the cake. Welcome to bizarro christianazi world. Hitler was right to combine the appraisal of God and himself as God's man in one combo. Bush just follows the trail.

[Velthuijsen]

How do people reach the conclusion that the best time to provide instruction regarding faith is when the person will parrot what their parents say? What kind of faith is that, anyway? What is the religious victory in converting someone who will in all likely hood be grounded if they don't comply?

You might find it appalling but the parents do it out of love for their children. These parents are afraid that if their children do not believe the children will go to hell and the parents want to keep the children out of that place at any cost.

That there is some depressing shit. Luckily, it's just America, and Europe doesn't brook that fanatical religious nonsense. They got their share of that already, and decided it was worth shit.

For the most part Europe has indeed moved past it but it is still there just a lot smaller and with the groups less likely trying to get media attention.

Like a political party here in the Netherlands that almost lost it funding due to not allowing women as members (citing the bible as reason for not accepting them). They finally accepted women as members (to stay on the funded list) but barred them from any activitiy that was meant for men, so for example women still can't vote on anything.
Before this exploded into the media most people didn't even know that a group like this still existed in the Netherlands.

[Spyder]

I'd urge anyone that's having difficulty watching not to stop. Eventually we're all going to need to deal with this problem.

Alright folks, how do we fix this?

[ANGELUS]

How do people reach the conclusion that the best time to provide instruction regarding faith is when the person will parrot what their parents say?

Because that is a time when you can make kids believe whatever you whant them to, and if you do it good enough they will never doubt it, so they will grow up and do the same.

I was particularly shocked by the end during the radio interview when that woman says that democracy will eventually destroy itself because you have to give everyone equal freedom. Kinda makes you realize what kind of fanatics you are dealing with.

[Nate_A]

Telling children that they are worthless scum, deserving of eternity in hell is something that nearly half the parents in the United States do. Jesus Camp is extraordinary in the extent to which it beats children over the head with religious dogma, but the ideas themselves are not unpopular.

I would argue that content of the ideas are not the only factor. Certainly the manner in which they are taught to children makes a world of difference. There's telling your children that they are worthless scum and there's beating it into their head so hard that they are pressured into crying and faking seizures over it.

This is very true; but the two cases are pricipally the same, so if the more extreme case is wrong, then the less extreme case must be wrong to a lesser extent. Of course, one could argue that it is only the indoctrination methods that are wrong, and ignore the content altogether. ( This would be the best method if one wanted to pursue legal action, or convince more moderate christians that Jesus camps are bad. )

Other than that, there is absolutely no reason not to lock these people up.

No one said anything about locking them up. An intervention by social services would be more than adequate.

Are you thinking of fines, or just a warning not to do it again? I just don't think that's enough for this sort of thing. If you hit a person in the head and damage its brain, you are going to jail for a while. If you preach at a child and damage its mind shouldn't there be comparable ramifications?

You might find it appalling but the parents do it out of love for their children. These parents are afraid that if their children do not believe the children will go to hell and the parents want to keep the children out of that place at any cost.

You're absolutely right. These people don't belong in jail; they belong in a mental hospital.

Alright folks, how do we fix this?

Education. We've already made a great deal of progress since the dark ages; and we can press forward until people who believe that they are in communication with the creator of the universe are as rare - and as highly thought of - as people who believe that they are Napoleon Bonaparte. But it will require a long, gradual process of unabashedly advocating ideas, until the false ebb away before the true.

In the short term, the best solution is consciousness raising. Remember, the mainstream was appalled by this film. So, if we speak of these poor children, as we speak of oppressed women in the middle east, public outrage will grow until people do not wish to associate with groups such as Jesus Camp. In fact, the production of this film has already been a huge step forward in this direction.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

Alright folks, how do we fix this?

Education, education, education. Reform our system to one that works; let's not be afraid to borrow ideas from Europe and Japan. Proper education is designed to be fun and interesting so it can truly seep into the minds of the whole classroom, not just the nerds in the front row and the preppies/jocks/cheerleaders getting by by paying only enough attention and learning just enough to game the system.

In the meantime, we keep it in the public consciousness that this sort of evil exists. We link it to the Phelpses by painting them as merely this evil taken to a more overt level. We link it to the Inquisition, Crusades, and the Iraq War by stating that these are merely the logical conclusion of this evil. Youtube is a perfect battleground for this because a campaign like this lends itself to short, cheap videos ripping apart fundamentalism point by point. We try to raise capital and generate buzz in order to make followup documentaries in the same vein as Jesus Camp.

Meanwhile, anyone getting Jesus Camp off Bittorrent keep your clients open! LET THIS SPREAD!

[Rye]

I'd urge anyone that's having difficulty watching not to stop. Eventually we're all going to need to deal with this problem.

Alright folks, how do we fix this?

I would like to see less religion/cult distinction in the media first of all, journalists should hound the hell out of churches that are clearly abusive and are spreading mental illness and anguish. If the press keep showing these assholes to be assholes, eventually people and press that live near where new churches are going up will campaign against them like they do walmarts, stop them spreading so we've got a more managable problem.

Once thy're confined or at least severely reduced in expanding influence, we need to really drill home that sources of ill mental health in society, be they office bullying or church bullshit must be stopped since they hurt us as a society, then we start shutting these creepy camps down and hopefully, eventually, these nutty little cultish churches.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

Other than that, there is absolutely no reason not to lock these people up.

No one said anything about locking them up. An intervention by social services would be more than adequate.

Are you thinking of fines, or just a warning not to do it again? I just don't think that's enough for this sort of thing. If you hit a person in the head and damage its brain, you are going to jail for a while. If you preach at a child and damage its mind shouldn't there be comparable ramifications?

No, I'm thinking along the lines of taking their children and putting them in a healthier environment. Even a foster home is arguably better.

[Nate_A]

Are you thinking of fines, or just a warning not to do it again? I just don't think that's enough for this sort of thing. If you hit a person in the head and damage its brain, you are going to jail for a while. If you preach at a child and damage its mind shouldn't there be comparable ramifications?

No, I'm thinking along the lines of taking their children and putting them in a healthier environment. Even a foster home is arguably better.

Well, obviously abusive parents should not be able to remain in control of their children; but the justice system has always relied on punishments to dissuade people from taking undesirable actions in the first place. What should be the punishment for brainwashing children into a lunatic religious cult? ( and I wasn't thinking so much about the parents as I was the organizers of this freak show. )

[Inquisitor Ryan]

You're absolutely right. These people don't belong in jail; they belong in a mental hospital.

Wrong, they belong in a grave plain and simple. Any living being that sends their children to these camps is evil, profoundly evil. Anyone who holds such mindless loyalty to a mere concept that they're willing to die for it should be granted that wish. Kill them and send them to their dear and fluffy lord...

Alright folks, how do we fix this?

Education like has been said, anyone who watches this should be completely horrified and offended at this sickening garbage. I'm not saying that Christians are wrong beleiving in their god because I do not, but to hold such faith as to want their children indoctrinated is wrong.
Like has been pointed out the Mainstream was offended to see this, that is the first step, the next step???
I dunno but I fear it'll end in bloodshed like that Nutjob in Waco or whereever it was.

Are you thinking of fines, or just a warning not to do it again? I just don't think that's enough for this sort of thing. If you hit a person in the head and damage its brain, you are going to jail for a while. If you preach at a child and damage its mind shouldn't there be comparable ramifications?

There is only one penalty worth the price of doing this to children... Death. A slow death.



When I first saw this I was so offended I wanted to find the people running that place and show them what their dear and fluffly lord had in store for them spanish inquisition style, that is how badly it affected me. Now imagine how those children feel in those camps. They need rescuing, now.

[CarsonPalmer]

You're being pretty hard on the parents, who were indoctrinated themselves as kids.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

You're being pretty hard on the parents, who were indoctrinated themselves as kids.

The train of abusive brainwashing has to stop. Now is as good a time to draw the line in the sand as any.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

Although I'll agree death is not what these parents need. All that does is make martyrs for them. Only martyrs we need are Matthew Shepard and that kid Zach who got victimized by John Smid's gang. No more martyrs. No more violence. No more DEATH!