Katana fleet dreadnaughts - feasable in EU?

rhoenix · Post by **rhoenix** » 2006-12-17 05:52pm

Since I'm shelving my earlier writing idea, I decided to run with another idea and see how it pans out.

If about five former Katana-fleet dreadnaughts were found, about how much upgrading work would it take to get them comparable in terms of firepower, relative payload, range, self-sufficiency (perhaps necessitating a factory ship), and overall tactical use to ships in the post-ROTJ Star Wars universe?

Just from what I've read on Wookiepedia and from speaking to a few of the members here in the unofficial chat, I'd preliminarily thought that they'd need better engines, power plant, weapons, computer & targetting systems and other general upgrades.

I also am including an idea of mine to add capacitors to the turbolaser batteries, allowing the heavier guns more powerful shots when charged fully, though this would likely be used for surgical strikes to supplement missle spamming.

Thank you in advance - I'd appreciate any and all feedback on this.

Yoda · Post by **Yoda** » 2006-12-17 06:04pm

At the time of the Thrawn trilogy, Bel Iblis' Katana Dreadnauhts (three of them) were enough to at least waylay an ISD.

Considering it was mentioned in the same book that four dreadnaughts were used to defend against a Victory, it would seem that Bel Iblis dreadnaughts have been extensively upgraded, or that ISDs are particularily weak to Ion cannons.

In addition to the slave circuit design (safeguards this time, although the whole virus thing would be a disaster no matter what, at least you don't lose the ships), upgrades to all systems would be neccessary, perhaps using a reactor from a carrak cruiser.

With enough power, it should be a match for frigates and corvettes.

EDIT: The hyperdrive definately needs upgrading; class 2 should suffice.
A swap of weapons emplacements (from laser cannons to turbolasers) would make them a better match for other ships of their size).

NRS Guardian · Post by **NRS Guardian** » 2006-12-17 06:17pm

Bel Iblis had 6 Katana Dreadnaughts, and it would probably take less resources to get a Katana into fighting shape than it would to make a regular dreadnaught competitive. Considering regular Dreadnaughts are converted to Assault Frigates, and the Katanas weren't.
3 of Bel Iblis's Katana Dreadnaughts can hold an ISD off for a few minutes and 6 are a match for an ISD.
It seems Bel Iblis equipped his with heavy Ion Cannons capable of messing with an ISD.

A Carrack reactor would be too small. Especially since Carracks are contemporary to Katana Dreadnaughts. A Vindicator reactor would be a better choice.

Crossroads Inc. · Post by **Crossroads Inc.** » 2006-12-17 06:19pm

The massive overpopulation of Dreadnaughts was always odd. 15,000 men for a 600-meter Starship? With EU Automation and especially adopting practices put forth by the New Republic, you could easily get that down to a much more manageable 5,000.

Something else is you might want to look to building new Dreadnaughts from scratch rather then endlessly upgrading old ones.

Sure Old Dreadnaughts are wonderfully resilient ships and can last a long time, but if you are looking to making a ship with every edge possible and able to stay in the front lines on it's own accord, your looking at a ground up job. The same reason why I would trust a 747 built last year over one built in th 80's. Virtually same design, but one with proper updates.

As mentioned one of the main upgrades will need to be to over all Power levels. Also since Dreads have no hangers, you would want more Pinpoint defence lasers.

NRS Guardian · Post by **NRS Guardian** » 2006-12-17 06:26pm

Crossroads Inc. wrote:The massive overpopulation of Dreadnaughts was always odd. 15,000 men for a 600-meter Starship? With EU Automation and especially adopting practices put forth by the New Republic, you could easily get that down to a much more manageable 5,000.

He's talking about Katana Dreadnaughts which already have enough automation to bring crew requirements down to 2,000. Also, most Imperial Dreadnaughts have hangar capacity for a squadron of fighters, and the accounts of Katana Dreadnaughts have them having some hangar space.

Pelranius · Post by **Pelranius** » 2006-12-17 06:40pm

Old Republic dreadnaughts probably put up with such large crew requirements because the Judicial Force seemed to serve like some sort of jobs program for the children of well connected Core Worlds families.

IceHawk-181 · Post by **IceHawk-181** » 2006-12-17 07:58pm

According to the RPG the 10 Heavy Turbolasers on the Dreadnought pack a 7D punch, compared to the basic 5D of the ISD-I.

They are armed with respectable Heavy Turbolasers, but perhaps lack the power generation to completely utilize them.

A new reactor, new hypedrive, and improved shielding might be enough.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-12-17 08:05pm

Yeah, and they're the same stats that don't even fit the model.

Even I didn't know the RPGs were so cripplingly stupid as to have a dreadnought outgun an ISD.

Master of Cards · Post by **Master of Cards** » 2006-12-17 09:24pm

R use the Venator Idea

Crossroads Inc. · Post by **Crossroads Inc.** » 2006-12-17 09:48pm

I think this would be one of those instances where ignoring the WEG stats all together would be prudant. From the jist of EU stories on Dreadnaughts, it seems they have powerful main guns, but not enough power to utilize all of them.

Of course this is all upgrading Katana Dreadnaughts, not the original, and I am far less versed with those versions.

What was the complete list of changes made to the Katanas?

Kartr_Kana · Post by **Kartr_Kana** » 2006-12-18 01:02am

Dreadnaughts are older than pretty much any other ship in the EU including the Carrack. For a 600m ship the fire power is quite weak, the shielding is woefully inadequate, slow sublight, hyper is a class 2 so thats ok atleast. Upgraded 1 squadron of fighters, and I think a regiment of troops. Systems are out dated, crew requirements are rediculus even with automation.

Bel Iblis used the ion cannons on three of them to slow down and blind an ISD, it took 6 to force a single ISD to retreat. And that was after Han used the slave rigging to ram the ISDs sister ship and a NR mon cal had just jumped in IIRC.

you are better off refitting to assault frigates. and I wouldnt use the Mk II version either. seems like a T-80 blunder, where the the new version trys something so different its worse. if you want a dreadnaughtish ship Assault Frigate is your best bet. Rendalli Dreadnaughts even the Katana refits just dont cut it these days.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2006-12-18 04:52am

For their size/tonnage and despite their age, Dreadnaughts actually wouldn't require all that much "updating" (although I still suspect a "modern" version of a vessel of similar size would still be better, if for no other reason that retrofitting an older hull is bound to have some kinds of limits compared to ships that are purpose-built around teh technologies they employ.)

Remember the SW galaxy has at most a very glacial case of technological advancement (and that is largely a matter of refinement or changing how its applied/scaled.) Innovation tends to be alot more difficult (or resource intensive - ie the Death Star) when it does occur (but it does occur.) The net result is that you can have ships decades or centuries "old" still serving alongside relatively newer vessels (which we've seen.) Its only when you get to ships that are thousand sof years old (like the Invincible-class designs the Corporate Sector uses) that they can truly be considered "outdated".

Ritterin Sophia · Post by **Ritterin Sophia** » 2006-12-18 04:56am

Stark wrote:Yeah, and they're the same stats that don't even fit the model. Even I didn't know the RPGs were so cripplingly stupid as to have a dreadnought outgun an ISD.

I don't have Starships of the Galaxy, but I'm betting WotC fixed that, hopefully...

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2006-12-18 07:15am

Two words: Technological Plateau.

Star Wars tech has remained at a constant level for thousnds of years. There's no reason why Dreadnaughts wouldn't be perfectly useable. You just need to find the 2,00 people per dreadnaught to crew them.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2006-12-18 11:36am

Connor MacLeod wrote:For their size/tonnage and despite their age, Dreadnaughts actually wouldn't require all that much "updating" (although I still suspect a "modern" version of a vessel of similar size would still be better, if for no other reason that retrofitting an older hull is bound to have some kinds of limits compared to ships that are purpose-built around teh technologies they employ.)

Remember the SW galaxy has at most a very glacial case of technological advancement (and that is largely a matter of refinement or changing how its applied/scaled.) Innovation tends to be alot more difficult (or resource intensive - ie the Death Star) when it does occur (but it does occur.) The net result is that you can have ships decades or centuries "old" still serving alongside relatively newer vessels (which we've seen.) Its only when you get to ships that are thousand sof years old (like the Invincible-class designs the Corporate Sector uses) that they can truly be considered "outdated".

But roles can differ. The Dreadnaughts were used as capital ships to enforce and project power in the GR days. Come the NR, they became convoy escorts due to their slow speed, ultimately, their redesign properly designated them as Frigates.

Master_Baerne · Post by **Master_Baerne** » 2006-12-18 11:37am

Yes there is. The Katana ships were sitting in Deep Space for 50 years with maddened crewers and droids running around blowing shit up. They are in no condition to fight, unless given a major repair. While their in spacedock, why not add a better Hypermatter reactor and other shit?

NRS Guardian · Post by **NRS Guardian** » 2006-12-18 02:08pm

Another thing is that in a thread concerning a Recusant versus a Dreadnaught the consensus was that a Dreadnaught could defeat a Recusant. So, especially in the Clone Wars they weren't useless at all. Also, Thrawn within a few months of acquiring them was able to use Katana Dreadnaughts to good effect against NR forces.

Kartr_Kana · Post by **Kartr_Kana** » 2006-12-18 02:56pm

I thought the technological plateau meant that there were no major leaps in technology. Minor progress was made in refining standared techs, smaller, more efficient, etc. still happens at a slower rate.

Dreadnaughts are no longer frontline capships, or even really usable as patrol ships. they lack the speed, defense, offense and in their usual config the support craft to be really effective as anything other then support craft. if you use them to support ISDs on the flanks or in the enemys rear arcs, where firepower is lower. Then you can be very succesful, just look at Thrawn. He never sent his Katanas by themselves, the were escorts for Vics and ISDs. He brought them in on flanks using interdictors and used them to hit weakend Rebel bases. Anytime they go up against a large force they supplement an already formidible battlegroup.

if thats how you want to use them they'll be adaquate, maybe even your best choice since you could probably find them lying around, or buy decommisioned ones from a gov thats upgrading. If you want a capship that will let you destroy anything in your class or smaller, put the hurt on bigger ships and be able to run from anything that'll kill you. Refit to Assault Frigates Mk I. Three of those make an ISD run or call for support, while three Dreadnaughts only make them blink.

rhoenix · Post by **rhoenix** » 2006-12-18 05:41pm

From the thoughts opined so far, the general consensus seems to be either "refit them to something similar to the Assault Frigate Mk. I (or perhaps the Assault Frigate Mk. II)," or "design an entirely new ship."

Given the points raised about having to adapt the hull structurally for new systems (and therefore weakening it), I'm leaning more toward designing a few new ships.

Thank you all for your answers and thoughts - I'll get to questions about naval weaponry in a new thread.

Kartr_Kana · Post by **Kartr_Kana** » 2006-12-18 07:25pm

Assault Frigate mk I shouldnt be to hard of a refit your ripping out most of the extranous superstructure and bolting on new engines and weapons. basically

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2006-12-18 07:58pm

Err- the Assault Frigate Mk I adds a lot of extraneous superstructure the original Dreadnought never had. For all practical purposes the Dreadnought is a cylinder with a few bumps.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-12-18 08:19pm

The problem with Dreadnaughts is not just that they're old, the EU makes it clear that they were poorly designed, with a shitload of flaws. Technological stasis isn't enough to make them decent.

StarWars.com

The Dreadnaught is plagued by a number of design flaws that prevented it from becoming a preeminent ship of the line. Inefficient power generators resulted in slow sublight and hyperdrive performance, weak shielding, reduced firepower and frequent surges within the computer systems.

Kartr_Kana · Post by **Kartr_Kana** » 2006-12-19 12:40am

If u look at pics of the Dreadnaught and the Mk I the only portion of the dreadnaught that remains is the upper bow. the rest is cut away to a narrow boom which leads to a tail fin and engine arrays. the forward bow has a narrow tierd structure added most of which appears to mass less then the original ship. especially the middle and stern sections, interesting to note the blisters on the side of the dreadnaught remain on the assault frigate. We know from TTT and HOT books that the dreadnaughts have comm and weapons blisters so presumable mk Is have almost identical fire power while improving all other aspects. Remember the mk I does away with the huge crew requirements (you use less than 1/3 the crew of the origional dreadnaught) freeing up all that space. more efficient reactors to bring up your output, better engines, ect.

all the rebel enginers did was cut the fat off of an all ready acceptable warship. Upgraded key components and autmated as much as possible and the new ship was the success its predecessor never really was.

Kartr_Kana · Post by **Kartr_Kana** » 2006-12-19 12:53am

If u look at pics of the Dreadnaught and the Mk I the only portion of the dreadnaught that remains is the upper bow. the rest is cut away to a narrow boom which leads to a tail fin and engine arrays. the forward bow has a narrow tierd structure added most of which appears to mass less then the original ship. especially the middle and stern sections, interesting to note the blisters on the side of the dreadnaught remain on the assault frigate. We know from TTT and HOT books that the dreadnaughts have comm and weapons blisters so presumable mk Is have almost identical fire power while improving all other aspects. Remember the mk I does away with the huge crew requirements (you use less than 1/3 the crew of the origional dreadnaught) freeing up all that space. more efficient reactors to bring up your output, better engines, ect.

all the rebel enginers did was cut the fat off of an all ready acceptable warship. Upgraded key components and autmated as much as possible and the new ship was the success its predecessor never really was.

Master of Cards · Post by **Master of Cards** » 2006-12-19 02:52pm

The Venators would be easy to get (after war sell off) are carriers and have decent wepoans