This is my next but last attempt:Wyrm wrote:The detection of a photon is interpreted by your brain as a barely-visible flash of light. Therefore, a photon looks like a teeny-tiny, barely-visible flash of light, because that's what it is. Of course, then it's gone because you absorbed the thing to detect it.
There. I've described it. Your witness.
See above. You do sense gravitons by virtue of your graviton detector being designed to detect and measure them, the same way your eye sense photons by virtue of photoreceptor cells being able to detect and measure them. You seeing the hot babe when you detect her image is a mental trick; that's why photography works.
Or are you so isolated that you haven't seen Brittany Spears' bald coochie?
Your brain is not able to interpret the interatcion of only one photon with your retina. And even if it would be, your brain would only interpret this interaction. You haven't seen the photon itself.
For you can't see a photon, which fly in your field of vision but doesn't go to your retina or isn't still gone in your retina, even if it wouldn't fly with lightspeed and even if you would be able to see such a small object at all.
To see it, another photon, which then fly in your eye, would have to interacted with the first photon first. But photons usually don't interact among each other
For this, you can't ever get a picture of a photon with your eyes only.
If you haven't understand this, I don't know, how to explain it to you.
Maybe you deliberately pretend, that you doesn't understand me.
Or maybe, you doesn't understand me, cause you are to dump.
Or maybe, you doesn't understand me, cause I use the wrong terms and definitions.
Maybe you should ask Mike to explain it. I do not think much of him, but I think, he would be able to explain it to you.
If he has another opinion, I answere him.
You know, that all known kind of radiation consist of particels too. That is a central concept of quantum mechanics: Every kind of radiation has properties of particels as well as properties of waves.Because the kinds of radiation we're familiar with do not behave like the radiation Fed ships use to probe other vessels. It's obvious that something else we don't know is at work. That we posit that this radiation is subspace radiation is a reasonable hypothesis based on the fact that subspace displays FTL properties (giving Fed ships the ability to detect things at FTL ranges), and the prevalence of subspace devices aboard Fed ships.
[...]
To answer briefly, no.
To answer somewhat less briefly, hell no!
Gravitions, as they are theorized to exist, are completely consistent with general relativity. Part of being consistent with general relativity is that there are no influences that exceed the speed of light. Period. This means that gravitational influences and radiation do not, on the large scale, either do not propagate through subspace at all, or propagating through subspace is no shortcut.
Proposing anything else causes the causal structure of the universe to break down. While we assume subspace radiation has mechanisms to prevent breakdown of causality, given that subspace interactions are unambiguously FTL, we do not propose the same for gravitation.
If you say, that there is some kind of subspace radiation, which doesn't consist of particels too, you would violate this concept. With your words, it would causes the causal structure of the universe to break down.
You could explain it, if you would say, that this concept doesn't apply to subspace, as you do.
But than, there is no reason, to assume, that gravitons, which are only another particel, which existence is hypothesized only because this concept of quantum mechanics, could not exist in subspace.
To be honest, I haven't undestand this sentence. I'm not used to read such long sentences without a comma between every thought. That is in the German not usual, as you can maybe see by the many commas, I set. And I even try to reduce my commas cause I know, that it is unussaly in English to set commas like in German. But in your sentence, I can't find, where one thought end and another thought start. Maybe you try it again.If I'm reading you right, you've gone from detecting the gravitions themselves at FTL ranges, which is impossible to detecting the effect of the mass's gravitational field on subspace radiation distorting as it goes through the field, but you're still detecting a return signal from your outgoing subspace radation emissions, and inferring the properties of the mass by that return signal.
I haven't denied, that the gravitational interaction is a very feeble force. I know that. It is even the smallest of the four fundamental interactions.To this, we add one of Mad's points, which is that the gravitational interaction is a very feeble force, somewhere south of 10^{-40} of the strength of the electromagnetic force... very difficult to detect for even large masses. Furthermore, even assuming you can detect gravitational forces, the influence of gravitation drops off by the distance-squared. That means that if I'm standing 1 m away from you, my gravitational influence on you is more than Mars. When you get to objects as small as ships at distances comparable to Mars, you're getting into VERY TINY influences [...]
And I know, that it would be difficult to detect gravitation or rather its gravitons in a passive way. But it is the future and I don't see, why it would be impossible, that they have developed a method. It is not impossible in theory, but only difficult.
It is not impossible to develop a superluminal propulsion in theory. There are several concepts, who would allow that without violating the theory of relativity. But it would be very very difficult and would need in almost all concepts huge amounts of energy. By far more, than the Enterprise would be able to "generate" by a reaction of Deuterium with antideuterium with reasonable amounts. But they have solved the problem someway.
You would know your own mass. And only that and maybe your own velocity, from which you can calculate your - by this velocityy increased mass, is important The proverbial crewman fart wouldn't change the mass of the ship. The gases are only not in the crewman anymore.[...] indeed to get swamped by lovely instrument noise. Thus, DW's proverbial crewman fart.
Some EM interferences doesn't interact with gravitation or rather gravitons.
I have already said several times, that you always need more than one variable to calculate another variable. That is absolutely normal. You bring the same argument, that has Mad brought already. But, as Mad too, you ignore, that I have already answered this argument.Okay, lets assume, by magic, that you have accounted for the passing of gas by your crewmen, and all of the known bodies in range. Now, you have a number of ships exerting gravitational influences on you, and your task is to determine the masses of those ships. Now you've run into a new snag, which is that the problem I gave you, even when the number of ships are known, is unidentified. To answer the question of these ships' masses, you need a lot more information: you would need to know the positions of the ships, and the ratio of the ships' masses to each other. Only then does the problem become solvable. But if you've gotten that far...
If you have a pull, you can only determine its direction and its force.
If there would be another source of gravitation, it would sum up to a lightly changed pull. The pull of a source of gravitation would increase, the more its source get near to you (or you to it.) Thus you can determine the velocity throug the increasing force of the pull, if you assume, that the source doesn't change its own mass.
If you would change your position to the axis of both sources, and the position of one source, for example the position of one planet, is known to you, you can determine the positon of the second source.
If the source of the gravitation is flying with a constant velocity in one direction, you can determine with the change of the pulls direction its course.
The same work with several sources, if you have only enough other known variables to cancel out these sources.
But if you have nothing but a not changing pull, you have only the direction of this pull and its force. That is undoubted correct.
Thus, the problem is only, to detect this tiny changes in direction and force of the pull of gravitation.
But that would only be a problem, if you would detect gravitation passive.
If they could detect graviton particles with an active sensor signal, they would have more informations than only a pull. These gravitons doesn't interact among each other. For this, the gravitons would fly from each source of gravitation omnidirectional in a direct course and you could detect angles, where the gravitons of two sources cross their courses. With these angles and the change in this angles, when the sources change their positions to each other, you could determine the exact position of each source without the need to change your own position too.
You could even determine the position directly, if you are able to detect gravitons activly and thus have the course of these, which emanate from one source. You would get a sensor reading similar to a star with beams from its center.
With the amount of gravitons, which are flying from each single source, you can determine the mass, even if you aren't able to cancel out the different influences on the pull, you could sense, anymore.
Why else would the Crew of the Enterprise assume, that they could communicate with it in this way?Who says the Crystiline Entity communicates with its own kind with gravition signals? Even if it did, what makes you think they use graviton emissions to find each other?
If it isn't its form of communication, they would have to develop a total new language, based on this new and total unfamiliar way. Imagine, you would try to communicate with another being only by giving it and receiving from it electric shocks. That is not the kind of language, in which your mind is used to thinking. And now imagine, that this other being has even a total other structur of its mind. It has not a human mind.Cpt. Picard wrote: I will make every effort to communicate
[...]
If we can determine what its needs
are, we might find other sources
to supply it...
You would need very much time to etablish a language, complex enough to determine, what its needs.
And that require, that the Crystalline Entity is willing, to learn to communicate with you in this strange way at all. It would be strange for it, if it doesn't communicate in this way at first. And its mind would have to adapt itself to this new and unfamiliar form of communication.
No universal translator could help at first.
It could only help at once, if it has only to learn an already etablished language.
Tus, the attempt, to communicate with it in this way is only comprehensible, if they have assumed, that this is the method of communication for the Crystalline Entity at all.
And if they communicate in this way, it would be likely, like all other naturally developed kinds of communicaion, an omnidirectional communication. If it wouldn't be, their would be no real chance, that they would be able to find its own kind in deep space.
But they have said, that they didn't know its exact whereabouts. The have only known, that it was between the Enterprise and the Brechtian Cluster. As far as they have known, it could have been five lightyears away.It was close enough for the Enterprise to detect in a general way, if not very precisely. If they can pin it within a few light hours from their position, then it's sensible to use graviton radiation to signal it.
But maybe they aren't so dumb.Otherwise, they're fucking dumb (but that's not new).
The Enterprise was at warp in pursuit of the Crystalline Entity, when they have started to send the pulses. And then, the Crystalline Entity was approaching at warp speed.48 EXT. SPACE - THE ENTERPRISE (OPTICAL)
at warp.
PICARD (V.O.)
Captain's Log, stardate 45125.7.
We are still in pursuit of the
Crystalline Entity.Data and
Doctor Marr are prepared to
attempt communication with the
being when we intercept it. I
will admit to some uncertainty
about the prospect... it could
prove to be a scientific
triumph... or a catastrophe.
49 INT. BRIDGE
Picard, Riker, Troi, Worf; Data and Doctor Marr at an
aft science station; Geordi at the other;
supernumeraries.
WORF
Sir, the Brechtian Cluster is now
five light years away.
RIKER
Are we still picking up the
Entity's pattern?
DATA
Yes, Commander. But sensors do
not yet have a lock on its exact
whereabouts.
DOCTOR MARR
Captain, we are reasonably certain
it's between here and the
Brechtian Cluster. If I start
emitting the graviton beam now,
it may act as a lure... a kind
of beacon.
PICARD
Make it so.
Marr and Data begin keying controls.
STAR TREK: "Silicon Avatar" - 7/31/91 - ACT FIVE 51.
49 CONTINUED:
DOCTOR MARR
We'll start with a pulse width
of five nanoseconds, frequency
one pulse per second.
DATA
Commencing graviton emission
now...
There is a brief silence, as all on the bridge wait
tensely for results.
GEORDI
No change in the sensor readings.
DOCTOR MARR
Let's ramp the frequency.
DATA
Emissions now at ten pulses per
second.
Again, the charged silence. Then, Worf reacts to
something on his controls.
WORF
Sir...
DOCTOR MARR
What is it? Do you have
something?
WORF
A large mass... approaching at
warp speed...
PICARD
Full stop. Doctor Marr, continue
emitting your signal. On screen,
Mister Worf.
If you would know this >> shit << already about clusters, you would know, that there is no way, that the Brechtian Cluster, which contains at least two inhabited planets and thus could only be an open cluster, could not have a diameter from only five lightyears. That would be only two, maximal three planetary systems side by side. But a open cluster concists of far more stars.<snip shit we already know about clusters>
[...]
However, a five light year diameter cluster [...]
Depends on how fast you sweep it. It's not humanly possible to cover a 5.41 steradian solid angle with a laser pointer, but then again, there's no guy down in the emitter suite steering this beam by hand, is there?
[...]
Again, depends on how fast you sweep the beam, and how sensitive the entity is to time. It may be able to see a beam pulsing up to 100 times a second as distinct pulses, but a beam rastering past it 10 billion times per second as a continuous beam, the same way the electron beam of a television sweeps the entire screen thirty times per second, but we perceive it as a continous picture.
If you would sweep a beam, the duration of its contact to the target would shorten the more away the target is, up to the point, that it would have contact to the target only such a short duration, that it would highly unlikely, that a creature would be able to sense it. You have to consider, that we doesn't speak of some thousands kilometers, but lightyears.
Sure, it could be possible, that the Crystalline Entity could sense it anyway. But it would be unlikely.
Of course, but that wouldn't be a beam in a classical sense. A typical definition of beam is:All these problems disappear, of course, when the beam is set wide.
A narrow, propagating stream of particles or energy.
The only applicable definitions from Merriam Webster online are:
2a) a ray or shaft of light or
2b) a collection of nearly parallel rays (as X rays) or a stream of particles (as electrons)
2c) a constant directional radio signal transmitted for the guidance of pilots; also : the course indicated by a radio beam
A beam with 53° of arc wouldn't usually considered a beam. And the angle would have to be greater, if you consider, that the Brechtian Cluster can't have a diameter of only five light years.
) Given the known limitations of graviton signaling, and the fact that Crystaline Entities travel at fucking warp speed (that's why they can catch up with and eat starships, remember), it's likely that the Crystaline Entities don't communicate at all unless they're right on top of each other — within the same star system at the very least.
"
