Anti armour

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2006-12-20 12:32pm

Does anyone have any ideas on what anti-armour tactics/weapons are used by SW militaries?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-12-20 12:34pm

It all depends on whether the strength of SW armour is due to some kind of exotic material characteristics or some sort of technological reinforcement. You have to tailor any kind of offensive technology to whatever defensive technology you're trying to defeat.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2006-12-20 01:20pm

There's the PLX-2M. It's a mini-proton torpedo that's fired by a single trooper like a Panzerfaust. It's more oriented towards anti-air, but it seems like it could do serious damage to armor if aimed right.

I expect that in the SW universe, as in our own, the best anti-tank weapon is another tank. As Chewbacca showed us in RotJ.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-12-20 01:47pm

The Rebels had numerous towed and fixed light guns as well as heavy machine guns which they apparently intended to use against fast-moving lightly armoured attackers (since they were completely useless against the AT-ATs). I'd hazard a guess that this is what they use against light armour in general. The E-Web is said to be capable of punching through starship-grade armour plate, although I don't recall if a thickness was specified.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2006-12-20 02:05pm

The E-Web in ESB was apparently a threat to the Millenium Falcon. The Falcon isn't a true warship but it does have military-grade armor thanks to Solo's modifications. That gives us an idea of what kinds of vessels it's expected to stop. The Star Wars equivalent of a heavy machine gun is a threat to small military transports at the very least, as long as they're unshielded.

The artillery the Rebels were using on Hoth, while it's pretty dinky by Clone Wars and Imperial standards, is stated in the literature to have been effective against scout walkers.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-12-20 02:58pm

Concussion missiles have armor-piercing tips, and proton torpedoes are focused nukes.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2006-12-21 10:23am

Anguirus wrote:The E-Web in ESB was apparently a threat to the Millenium Falcon. The Falcon isn't a true warship but it does have military-grade armor thanks to Solo's modifications. That gives us an idea of what kinds of vessels it's expected to stop. The Star Wars equivalent of a heavy machine gun is a threat to small military transports at the very least, as long as they're unshielded.

Apparently, the armour used by Han was salvaged off the Bulk Cruisers destroyed at Nar Shadaa. However, is there any evidence to believe that the stormtroopers in question knew this? For all we know, the E-web was only capable of penetrating normal freighter armour, not those used on warships.

A good question would be the various Clone War games. We see various anti-armour weapons and units there, such as the anti-armour DC-17 attachment in Republic Commando,although the canonicity status is low.

There's the PLX-2M. It's a mini-proton torpedo that's fired by a single trooper like a Panzerfaust. It's more oriented towards anti-air, but it seems like it could do serious damage to armor if aimed right.

Probably....... however, do we see any dedicated anti-armour weapons carried by infantry? Or even anything to suggest that infantry have weapons capable of taking out Juggernauts?

We do see an anti-armour action carried out by Wookies in ROTS......... the use of sucidal berserkers carrying a charge and attaching it.

If there isn't, does that mean all normal anti-armour tasks be carried out by light vehicles, tanks and aircraft? If so, what would be their tactics?

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2006-12-21 10:27am

Jim Raynor wrote:Concussion missiles have armor-piercing tips, and proton torpedoes are focused nukes.

That would appear to be starfighter weapons....... We do see such weapons used especially against the Yuzhan Vong ground troops, still, something tells me dropping kiloton nukes isn't that good for damage control.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2006-12-21 11:09am

Apparently, the armour used by Han was salvaged off the Bulk Cruisers destroyed at Nar Shadaa. However, is there any evidence to believe that the stormtroopers in question knew this? For all we know, the E-web was only capable of penetrating normal freighter armour, not those used on warships.

That's a decent point, but on the other hand Vader's compelling interest in Skywalker, and the active use of the Falcon for the Rebellion in the three years between SW and ESB, leads me to believe that they knew how tricked-out the ship was, at least to some extent.

Anyway, it still only gives us an idea. The stormies were probably expecting those Gallofree transports, since they seem to be ubiquitous. Despite their size, they are just half a hull with a cockpit bolted on, so an E-Web could probably tear up an unshielded one.

Or even anything to suggest that infantry have weapons capable of taking out Juggernauts?

If infantry had weapons capable of taking out Juggernauts, and could employ them easily, the Juggernaut would become instantly obsolete.

I can see a lucky grenade crippling one by damaging the drive system...but it would have to be some grenade, and the thing would probably be repairable.

There ARE some ridiculous yields attributed to thermal detonators in the literature.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2006-12-21 11:46am

Anguirus wrote:
If infantry had weapons capable of taking out Juggernauts, and could employ them easily, the Juggernaut would become instantly obsolete.

Modern infantry have numerous weapons capable of disabling or destroying tanks on the battlefield yet the tank is not obsolete. Instead it operates as part of a combined arms team just as Star Wars armies do.

Master_Baerne · Post by **Master_Baerne** » 2006-12-21 05:46pm

Just like in real life: When confronted by tanks, we use a rocket launcher. When confronted by AT-ATs, SW troops use protorp launchers.

Incidentally, why does everyone hate Karen Traviss? I haven't read any of her books, so I dont know.

NRS Guardian · Post by **NRS Guardian** » 2006-12-21 06:10pm

Master_Baerne wrote: Incidentally, why does everyone hate Karen Traviss? I haven't read any of her books, so I dont know.

She came out with an article in SW Insider that claims there are only 3 million clones in the entire Clone War. Then she went on the internet to defend her claim and lied and whined, until she got people banned for disagreeing with her. Also, she used a story in the Insider and her second RC novel to try to make her shit canon.

Edit: Mr. Poe's website has a section detailing and parodying her BS.

Jade Falcon · Post by **Jade Falcon** » 2006-12-21 07:40pm

Various materials like the Star Wars Encyclopedia and the RPG materials mention the static weapons on Hoth. The Atgar Tower (the weapon that looks like a dish) is apparently meant to be an anti-infantry weapon and not a very effective one at that.

The enclosed towers are meant to be anti-vehicle, but they aren't meant to be much good against the armour of AT-AT's.

Master_Baerne · Post by **Master_Baerne** » 2006-12-21 11:36pm

NRS Guardian wrote:
Master_Baerne wrote: Incidentally, why does everyone hate Karen Traviss? I haven't read any of her books, so I dont know.
She came out with an article in SW Insider that claims there are only 3 million clones in the entire Clone War. Then she went on the internet to defend her claim and lied and whined, until she got people banned for disagreeing with her. Also, she used a story in the Insider and her second RC novel to try to make her shit canon.

Edit: Mr. Poe's website has a section detailing and parodying her BS.

There is only one cure for idiocy that blatant. Call in the HAB!

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2006-12-21 11:40pm

Master_Baerne wrote:
NRS Guardian wrote:
Master_Baerne wrote: Incidentally, why does everyone hate Karen Traviss? I haven't read any of her books, so I dont know.
She came out with an article in SW Insider that claims there are only 3 million clones in the entire Clone War. Then she went on the internet to defend her claim and lied and whined, until she got people banned for disagreeing with her. Also, she used a story in the Insider and her second RC novel to try to make her shit canon.

Edit: Mr. Poe's website has a section detailing and parodying her BS.
There is only one cure for idiocy that blatant. Call in the HAB!

Either stop spamming or shut the flying fuck up.

Coalition · Post by **Coalition** » 2006-12-22 04:33am

Jade Falcon wrote:Various materials like the Star Wars Encyclopedia and the RPG materials mention the static weapons on Hoth. The Atgar Tower (the weapon that looks like a dish) is apparently meant to be an anti-infantry weapon and not a very effective one at that.

The enclosed towers are meant to be anti-vehicle, but they aren't meant to be much good against the armour of AT-AT's.

I thought the two were reversed. The tower was an anti-infantry, as few infantry have the weapons needed to punch through its armor, while the gun would be albe to sweep infantry. The radar gun was anti-armor, optimized to punch through armor, and cheap to make in large quantities (no fancy motive systems or defenses, just a gun).

Ah well, glad to have that cleared up.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2006-12-22 07:29am

Jade Falcon wrote:Various materials like the Star Wars Encyclopedia and the RPG materials mention the static weapons on Hoth. The Atgar Tower (the weapon that looks like a dish) is apparently meant to be an anti-infantry weapon and not a very effective one at that.

The enclosed towers are meant to be anti-vehicle, but they aren't meant to be much good against the armour of AT-AT's.

Are those guns mobile? I seem to recall that they require a fixed power generator, which pretty much means they can't be used for anything other than base defences........

NRS Guardian · Post by **NRS Guardian** » 2006-12-22 11:13am

PainRack wrote: Are those guns mobile? I seem to recall that they require a fixed power generator, which pretty much means they can't be used for anything other than base defences........

I think the RPG and other source material says that there are both mobile and stationary versions of the guns.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2006-12-22 12:29pm

Modern infantry have numerous weapons capable of disabling or destroying tanks on the battlefield yet the tank is not obsolete. Instead it operates as part of a combined arms team just as Star Wars armies do.

A modern MBT does not carry 100 troops. A Juggernaut is also an enormous expenditure of materials. If one soldier could kill it easily, such massive tanks would probably not have been developed. It would simply be an enormous target.

At any rate, I don't think we see even one of them destroyed or crippled during the Battle of Kashyyyk. If it were easy for individual troops to do this, I think they would have suffered more casualties.

Rather, in the Star Wars universe, big expenditure to create a huge tank seems to be worth it.

FOG3 · Post by **FOG3** » 2006-12-22 01:11pm

Anguirus wrote:If one soldier could kill it easily, such massive tanks would probably not have been developed.

Should I mention that Skywalker did just that with what amounted to a glorified grappling hook, blow torch, and hand grenade to an AT-AT? Not to mention that we're kind of hardpressed to find the escort that should have prevented that. The AT-STs don't really cut the mustard. The Appeal to Competance here isn't really holding water.

No him being a Jedi doesn't excuse it, what can happen will happen and to quote Sun Tzu, Chapter VIII, verse 11 "The art of war teaches us to rely not on the likelihood of the enemy's not coming, but on our own readiness to receive him; not on the chance of his not attacking, but rather on the fact that we have made our position unassailable."

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2006-12-22 03:27pm

Should I mention that Skywalker did just that with what amounted to a glorified grappling hook, blow torch, and hand grenade to an AT-AT? Not to mention that we're kind of hardpressed to find the escort that should have prevented that. The AT-STs don't really cut the mustard. The Appeal to Competance here isn't really holding water.

Escorting troops would have ended that little attempt right quick. Thanks for cherry-picking one situation in which one lucky bastard did take out a large armored vehicle and roughly forty troops. I suppose the Tiger tank was useless because rarely a suicidally brave soldier would drop a grenade in the top hatch, despite the fact that its frontal armor could not be pierced by an American bazooka. (Incidentally, the AT-AT is actually unusual for SW armored vehicles in that it does not have some sort of anti-infantry blasters.)

I'm still waiting for a B1 with a bazooka-equivalent killing an A6 Juggernaut. (If you can find it in the canon, I'll even take an A5.) Like I said, if this was plausible, burned-out hulks would have littered the beach in RotS.

Natural selection ain't just a biological concept.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-12-25 08:07am

FOG3 wrote:Should I mention that Skywalker did just that with what amounted to a glorified grappling hook, blow torch, and hand grenade to an AT-AT?

Umm yeah, a blow torch. Right. Because blow torches can cut through the hatches and hulls of modern day tanks in one pass.
Come on man, he's a Jedi!

FOG3 wrote:No him being a Jedi doesn't excuse it,

Ah, shit. Fine.

Not to derail, but how powerful exactly is a lightsaber when compared to other devices of similar size?
Are weapons/tools of that size capable of cutting through an AT-ST's belly hatches or the blast doors of the Trade Fed ship bridge uncommon? If so, how is it achieved in a lightsaber?

IIRC there seemed to be some surprise that anything was getting through the blast door. If blast doors that thick are supposed to be penetratable by common tiny handheld devices, that's not much of a blast door.. unless the capabilities of a lightsaber is unusual even by SW tech standards.

Gunhead · Post by **Gunhead** » 2006-12-25 05:27pm

Those proton packs that Han & Co were using to blow up the bunker and Luke used to knock out the AT-AT I believe are quoted to be able to blast through a blastdoor.
If you're going for a lightsaber proof blastdoor, just add forcefield and shake well.

-Gunhead

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-12-25 08:42pm

Are doors and armor (un-reinforced by energy shielding) really so incapable of stopping proton grenades and lightsabers?

If so, it seems bizarre that the AT-AT did not employ that sort of shielding throughout its hull (especially those underside hatches, which as has been said, whatever can happen will happen).. and also strange that the Trade Fed ship bridge even bothered having those doors, yet not have shields.

I always figured that a lightsaber was special by being ultra-efficient or something.. not that all the feats attributed to them could be done better by proton grenades and fusion torches.

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » 2006-12-26 12:35am

Gunhead wrote:Those proton packs that Han & Co were using to blow up the bunker and Luke used to knock out the AT-AT I believe are quoted to be able to blast through a blastdoor.
If you're going for a lightsaber proof blastdoor, just add forcefield and shake well.

How heavy of a blast door, though? A skinny one like the Endor base's, I can see them doing. The TF ship's blast door was mighty damn thick though-- at least about a metre, as Qui-gon's lightsabre didn't protrude through it.

As for forcefields-- expensive, power-intensive, cooling issues... feasible on destroyer droids due to their miniaturization and designed purpose; not so much for doors. It's quite possible though, as we can see from the vacuum shields they have in hangars and such. Perhaps just an size issue...?