'Designer’ babies with made-to-order defects?

[brianeyci]

Well if I magically give my kids my disabilities not only will they have to overcome the problems I have to but they will have to live with the fact that their father crippled them for life, just so he could feel better. How are they going to feel about that? I imagine that's going to create some pretty bitter people, I'd be goddamn pissed if my parents pulled that kind of shit on me.

In the show, so was the kid. The mother ended up taking House's advice and lying to the kid, telling the kid that she didn't deliberately make him a dwarf but he was intended to be that way. Better a white lie than a lifelong rift in the family, but far better that it hadn't happened at all.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Well if I magically give my kids my disabilities not only will they have to overcome the problems I have to but they will have to live with the fact that their father crippled them for life, just so he could feel better. How are they going to feel about that? I imagine that's going to create some pretty bitter people, I'd be goddamn pissed if my parents pulled that kind of shit on me.

In the show, so was the kid. The mother ended up taking House's advice and lying to the kid, telling the kid that she didn't deliberately make him a dwarf but he was intended to be that way. Better a white lie than a lifelong rift in the family, but far better that it hadn't happened at all.

Well i disagree. The truth is the truth, it's not good or bad, it's without morality. Lies are always bad however. How is he going to feel when/if he finds out? Lets say he has another problem, goes to another doctor, the issue comes up and the other doctor spills the beans. Then what?

I found it's always better to just be honest. If someone cant take the truth that's not your fault, people need to learn how to deal. If you lie, then they find out, and it makes it even worse...that's our fault.

I recall an episode of Law and Order where a murderer got away because the parents of a kid didnt want him to know he was 'made' just so they could get bone marrow to save their other kid. If a self-righteous nimrod like McCoy can figure out the great mystery, surely an halfway intelligent person could, so i figure the kid will eventualy put two and two together...and then what. And meanwhile a murderer and a (quasi) rapist goes unpunsihed.

[brianeyci]

How much life experience do you have 18-Til-I-Die? The truth is not always the best way to do things, especially if you're dealing with handicapped people, emotionally unstable people, or children. This is already getting way off topic, but "lies are always bad" in this context reeks of someone who doesn't have enough life experience. Omission is technically being less than honest, but there's perfectly valid reasons to omit the truth. In general the truth is better, but there are exceptions.

[18-Till-I-Die]

How much life experience do you have 18-Til-I-Die? The truth is not always the best way to do things, especially if you're dealing with handicapped people, emotionally unstable people, or children. This is already getting way off topic, but "lies are always bad" in this context reeks of someone who doesn't have enough life experience. Omission is technically being less than honest, but there's perfectly valid reasons to omit the truth. In general the truth is better, but there are exceptions.

Life experience? You mean how old i am? I'm 21.

If you mean how much shit i've been through, with all due respect, more than most 21 year olds. I'm not soem kind of WWII vet or something, but i've been through the wringer more than i'd care to recall.

I think you're being quite disrespectful of disabled people though, if i do say so. They arent fragile little dolls, if they're emotionally mature enough to actually be called an adult they can deal with it, if they're too fragile to handle the truth...so? They'll find out ANYWAY, nothing can be kept a secret forever, and when they DO find out and then also realize you lied to them how do you think they'll feel.

Why omit the truth? Think they cant handle it? Why? Because they're cripple, or blind, or retarded? They can deal with it let me assure you of this.

And with children it's even worse. Because if they ever find out the truth, someone they THOUGHT they could trust has lied to them, how do you think they'd feel?

There is something to be said for breaking it to them gently of course, but whitewashing it is stupid.

[18-Till-I-Die]

If you dont want to go off topic too much, i'm willing to drop it or we can discuss it in another thread or whatever you feel.

[brianeyci]

I mean have you had a job where you've had to lie to keep it. I mean have you ever had to look a child in the face and lie, because if you didn't it would've started a temper tantrum. I mean have you ever called someone special because they're disabled, even though a disability is definitely not special. And you're trying to move the goal posts. You said "lies are always bad" when they're clearly not.

[18-Till-I-Die]

I mean have you had a job where you've had to lie to keep it. I mean have you ever had to look a child in the face and lie, because if you didn't it would've started a temper tantrum. I mean have you ever called someone special because they're disabled, even though a disability is definitely not special. And you're trying to move the goal posts. You said "lies are always bad" when they're clearly not.

Wait so...if something is purely self serving it's ok? That's all the examples you've given me.

Would i lie to keep my job? Lie about what? If it was something i should have done but didnt, no since it was my fault and i should take responsibility. Lie tocover my boss's ass? Hell no, he did something wrong or obviously someone thinks so, and needs to either own up or prove he didnt. If you mean something else please specify.

Lie to my kid to stop a 'temper tantrum"? No, i'd simply tell him the truth gently. And if he's so spoiled that he cant understand that, then i will talk him down, and negotiate to get him to stop. If you're a competent parent i see no reason why you'd be so terrified of a temper tantrum anyway.

No i've never called anyone disabled special, i call them by the name of their disability, e.g blind, deaf, handicapped. Or just disabled. All perfectly accurate terms that no one other than a pussy would get worked up over.

None of these situations requires you to lie unless you're unable to take personal responsibility. You lie in these situations because you WANT to, to help YOU not them.

[brianeyci]

And what kind of wide-ranging parenting experience are you drawing this from? Here's a basic scenario. Kid wants a toy. Parent says they'll get the toy later. Kid shuts up. Later on time runs out. Parent says they don't have enough time left, time to go home. Kid forgets about it. Is this a lie? Of course it fucking is, the parent had no intention to buy the toy in the first place and knowingly delayed.

Here's another one. Parent teacher interview. Call in a parent, say he is retarded. Get smacked in the face. Instead, the teacher tells the parent the child is special or handicapped, and just needs special training to get along in life even though the teacher knows the child may never be normal. The teacher lied. Boo hoo, another example of a lie being useful.

How about this. Boss is a fucking asshole, who likes kissing ass and doesn't do anything all day. The company treats its employees like shit. So when asked about something you haven't done yet, you lie to keep your job.

Let's go back to the original example. You lie to the child, tell him you didn't want to make her a dwarf in the first place. Later on the child grows up, and maybe he'll be pissed for you lying, but instead you explain to them that you didn't want to hurt their feelings when they were emotionally vulnerable, so you told a white lie to a child, but wouldn't make such a gross lie up to an adult. The child understands, because unlike 18-Til-I-Die, he realizes that lies are sometimes necessary.

I can think of millions of examples when a lie is justified. Face it, "lies are always bad" is a black and white view of the universe, good versus evil, and it's a load of horsewash, naive and sheltered view. Lawful Good indeed.

[18-Till-I-Die]

By the way, i find it rather weasily to try and call someone who is handicapped "special".

I almost would consider that an insult, if i were handicapped. It smacks of a kind of disingenuous weasily bullshit. And i think they know it is too.

To be honest i almost am handicapped, as it is, while we're on the subject.

[brianeyci]

By the way, i find it rather weasily to try and call someone who is handicapped "special".

I almost would consider that an insult, if i were handicapped. It smacks of a kind of disingenuous weasily bullshit. And i think they know it is too.

To be honest i almost am handicapped, as it is, while we're on the subject.

I used to think that way too. When I was a child.

Get over it. Real life trumps all your high-horse always be honest bullshit. They call special education special education and not handicapped education because some children can't handle the truth. Some adults can't handle the truth. The ones who can handle the truth realize that the world is gray and not black and white. Evidently you're one of the children who slipped through the cracks and still thinks in black and white. Trust me one day you'll have a job where the boss is a fucking asshole and the company is a bloodsucker, and they'll be no reason to tell the truth and get yourself fired when you're the only hard worker there.

[18-Till-I-Die]

And what kind of wide-ranging parenting experience are you drawing this from? Here's a basic scenario. Kid wants a toy. Parent says they'll get the toy later. Kid shuts up. Later on time runs out. Parent says they don't have enough time left, time to go home. Kid forgets about it. Is this a lie? Of course it fucking is, the parent had no intention to buy the toy in the first place and knowingly delayed.

That's not a lie, actually. That's just NEGOTIATION. Police do it all the time. But i'm sure you're basing your experience on...what pray tell? Do you have kids? Have you ever had to take care of a little kid? I've had to care for children before, surprisingly they never gave me any trouble.

Here's another one. Parent teacher interview. Call in a parent, say he is retarded. Get smacked in the face. Instead, the teacher tells the parent the child is special or handicapped, and just needs special training to get along in life even though the teacher knows the child may never be normal. The teacher lied. Boo hoo, another example of a lie being useful.

Yeah cause i never said i'd call them handicapped...

No i've never called anyone disabled special, i call them by the name of their disability, e.g blind, deaf, handicapped

Oh wait...i did.

How about this. Boss is a fucking asshole, who likes kissing ass and doesn't do anything all day. The company treats its employees like shit. So when asked about something you haven't done yet, you lie to keep your job.

Bullshit. You should have done it on time, or explain why you couldnt. If they're so shitty that they treat you that way then anything you do wont matter anyway. And besides, covering your ass is still just being self serving. Jesus thanks for revealing you have NO CONCEPT of personal responsibility, i'll remember that.

Let's go back to the original example. You lie to the child, tell him you didn't want to make her a dwarf in the first place. Later on the child grows up, and maybe he'll be pissed for you lying, but instead you explain to them that you didn't want to hurt their feelings when they were emotionally vulnerable, so you told a white lie to a child, but wouldn't make such a gross lie up to an adult. The child understands, because unlike 18-Til-I-Die, he realizes that lies are sometimes necessary.

That's sucha rose-colored-glasses type situation i can barely unstand it. Are you honestly saying that if your parents had lied to you, resulting in you being disfigured and disabled, you would not be angry because they "had their reasons"? Seriously? Anyone with halfa brain would be angry, bitter, and in fact i'd probably slug someone if they told me such a thing. But maybe it's because i believe in personal responsibility and owning up for one's mistakes.

I can think of millions of examples when a lie is justified.

So can i. None of them have you yet mentioned.

Face it, "lies are always bad" is a black and white view of the universe, good versus evil, and it's a load of horsewash, naive and sheltered view. Lawful Good indeed.

Oh shut up. It's not my fault you were raised without a hint of any kind of personal responsibility. Just because something is BAD does not mean it cant be justfified in some cases. I NEVER SAID YOU SHOULD NEVER LIE, i said i found it is always better for you and them to not lie. There are a bunch of reasons to lie.

None of teh self-serving crap you mentioned is.

[18-Till-I-Die]

I used to think that way too. When I was a child.

You mean like today?

Get over it. Real life trumps all your high-horse always be honest bullshit. They call special education special education and not handicapped education because some children can't handle the truth. Some adults can't handle the truth. The ones who can handle the truth realize that the world is gray and not black and white.

Being 'gray' doesnt mean having no ability to take personal responsibility or to tell the truth dude.

Evidently you're one of the children who slipped through the cracks and still thinks in black and white. Trust me one day you'll have a job where the boss is a fucking asshole and the company is a bloodsucker, and they'll be no reason to tell the truth and get yourself fired when you're the only hard worker there.

Right. I only have a job. And take care of children. And have a sense of responsibility...

[brianeyci]

That's not a lie, actually. That's just NEGOTIATION. Police do it all the time. But i'm sure you're basing your experience on...what pray tell? Do you have kids? Have you ever had to take care of a little kid? I've had to care for children before, surprisingly they never gave me any trouble.

That's not a negotiation you dumbass, that's a lie because you had no intent to buy the toy in the first place. Evidently you're the kind of dumbass who thinks a lie is when you say something and don't do it, when lying is all about intent and not the words coming from your mouth.

Here's another one. Parent teacher interview. Call in a parent, say he is retarded. Get smacked in the face. Instead, the teacher tells the parent the child is special or handicapped, and just needs special training to get along in life even though the teacher knows the child may never be normal. The teacher lied. Boo hoo, another example of a lie being useful.

Yeah cause i never said i'd call them handicapped...

If a child is retarded, it's more accurate and hence honest to call them retarded. Instead call them handicapped or special. There goes your high horse bullshit.

Bullshit. You should have done it on time, or explain why you couldnt. If they're so shitty that they treat you that way then anything you do wont matter anyway. And besides, covering your ass is still just being self serving. Jesus thanks for revealing you have NO CONCEPT of personal responsibility, i'll remember that.

You're one big fucking dumb shit. There's no problem with being self-serving, as long as the person deserves to be lied to. Evidently you think that everybody deserves the truth, when clearly some people do not.

That's sucha rose-colored-glasses type situation i can barely unstand it. Are you honestly saying that if your parents had lied to you, resulting in you being disfigured and disabled, you would not be angry because they "had their reasons"? Seriously? Anyone with halfa brain would be angry, bitter, and in fact i'd probably slug someone if they told me such a thing. But maybe it's because i believe in personal responsibility and owning up for one's mistakes.

No, only you would be angry. Any mature person would realize that an adult may lie to children all the time to manage them.

So can i. None of them have you yet mentioned.

So you admit you were wrong when you said this?

Lies are always bad however.

Concession accepted.

Oh shut up. It's not my fault you were raised without a hint of any kind of personal responsibility. Just because something is BAD does not mean it cant be justfified in some cases. I NEVER SAID YOU SHOULD NEVER LIE, i said i found it is always better for you and them to not lie. There are a bunch of reasons to lie.

None of teh self-serving crap you mentioned is.

Goal post moving. You said this,

Lies are always bad however.

Lies are not always bad you dumbarse.

[18-Till-I-Die]

If you had a brain, Aristotle, you'd have used this as an example of a justified reason to lie.

Someone is threatening you, like a bully, they ask you something like "Where di you hid eyour money bitch?" and you lie and say it's over someone far away. They go after it and you bolt.

Or...

Someone killed a burglar breaking in their house. You KNOW it was just that (you were a witness say). But they did it in some way that was illegal. They were perfectly justified just wrong legally. So you omit the truth unless pressed for it to help them.

Or others.

[brianeyci]

If you had a brain, Aristotle, you'd have used this as an example of a justified reason to lie.

Someone is threatening you, like a bully, they ask you something like "Where di you hid eyour money bitch?" and you lie and say it's over someone far away. They go after it and you bolt.

Or...

Someone killed a burglar breaking in their house. You KNOW it was just that (you were a witness say). But they did it in some way that was illegal. They were perfectly justified just wrong legally. So you omit the truth unless pressed for it to help them.

Or others.

To distinguish between the sun and the moon is no test of vision dumbass. You only realized how stupid your argument was after I pointed it out. So your argument is I'm stupid, but you're not because you knew you were saying something stupid, or couldn't be bothered to think in the first place? . Concession accepted.

[18-Till-I-Die]

That's not a negotiation you dumbass, that's a lie because you had no intent to buy the toy in the first place. Evidently you're the kind of dumbass who thinks a lie is when you say something and don't do it, when lying is all about intent and not the words coming from your mouth.

Why do that then. Why not just let them have their tantrum. What is so terrifying about dealing with children. I care for kids myself, you act liek it's a war.

If a child is retarded, it's more accurate and hence honest to call them retarded. Instead call them handicapped or special. There goes your high horse bullshit.

BS. You can always say "Mentally Challenged" and it's teh same thing, and just as accurate. There goes your nitpicky bullshit. I also said "break it to them gently" but you didnt read that part obviously.

You're one big fucking dumb shit. There's no problem with being self-serving, as long as the person deserves to be lied to.

Who decides that pray?

Evidently you think that everybody deserves the truth, when clearly some people do not.

Based on what logic or evidence?

No, only you would be angry. Any mature person would realize that an adult may lie to children all the time to manage them.

The example you gave was about lying to make the kid a dwarf and then they find out the truth later. The person never intended to be revealed as a liar. That's not 'managing' them that's "maiming" them and then being a pussy about it.

So can i. None of them have you yet mentioned.

So you admit you were wrong when you said this?

Lies are always bad however.

Concession accepted.

"Bad" means unethical, not "it should never be done", genius. Killing is bad but it can still be justified.

And i also said "there is something to be said for letting them down gently". Not teh same hamfisted examples you gave. Again it's not my fault you cant own up to your own doings.

[18-Till-I-Die]

To distinguish between the sun and the moon is no test of vision dumbass. You only realized how stupid your argument was after I pointed it out. So your argument is I'm stupid, but you're not because you knew you were saying something stupid, or couldn't be bothered to think in the first place? . Concession accepted.

What kind of twat are you. Are YOU special?

I never said my argument was iron clad. I said lying is bad. Are you such a child you think "bad" means "evil" instead of "something that is wrong to do"?

You CAN do things that are wrong and have them justified. You're the one who is whoring about how everything is gray and there is no right or wrong not me.

I'd like for you to tell me what kind of job, child and life experience you have.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Or are you going to now say that you were able to read my mind and know precisely what i meant by "bad" and describe it in detail even though i didnt write it.

There are reasons to lie, but that does not make it right, only that it can be justified. You were never arguing that near as i can tell. You were just arguing that it's ok to lie to cover yoru own ass.

My examples are less shiftless and stupid than yours because they factor in a reason besides "i cant be bothered to try harder" or "i cant be bothered to rear my own kids".

[Aaron]

And what kind of wide-ranging parenting experience are you drawing this from? Here's a basic scenario. Kid wants a toy. Parent says they'll get the toy later. Kid shuts up. Later on time runs out. Parent says they don't have enough time left, time to go home. Kid forgets about it. Is this a lie? Of course it fucking is, the parent had no intention to buy the toy in the first place and knowingly delayed.

And what level of parent expertise are you basing this on Brian? I know you don't have kids. If the kid wants something and you aren't prepared to get them it you tell them no and deal with it right there and then because the kid won't forget about it and will only bring it up later. So it's either deal with the problem now or the collosal temper tantrum later when they realise you lied to them.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Sorry for the triple post...

But i'm fucking tired of you throwing responsibility on everyone else.

Do yoru job right. Dont piss people off. Use some gentle words when talking to the handicapped and children. If you do wrong, admit it.

This is not black and white you little twit, this is called being a man. Being an adult. Owning up to your mistakes.

It requires nothing more than an I.Q over 40.

[brianeyci]

Are you such a child you think "bad" means "evil" instead of "something that is wrong to do"?

Now you're just semantic whoring. If I said the Hiroshima bombing was bad, people would justifiably assume I said the Hiroshima bombing was unethical, especially in a forum called science, logic and morality, and proceed to slam me for it. Moreover, your "lies are always bad" is clearly intended to apply to all situations, not just to the situation I mentioned, as some kind of life experience lacking axiom. Especially when you said "I found it's always better to just be honest." It is not better to just be honest, there are situations all over the place, and you already conceeded that by saying you yourself can think of better reasons to lie, you lamearse. Too bad you didn't think before writing your post.

So it's either deal with the problem now or the collosal temper tantrum later when they realise you lied to them.

Fine, the example is not a good one. But I can think of other ones, and it's clear that "It's always better to just be honest" is a terrible way to go through life.

[RedImperator]

Oh, Slam, i recall now...

"Parental rights" protects these people, in this country at least. The same way you can refuse medical treatment on the grounds of religious belief, you can do stuff like this.

Um, no. You really need to find a source for your story, because if deaf parents had a hearing child surgically deafened, not only would they go to prison, but the surgeon who performed the operation would as well. Refusing medical treatment (and keep in mind, the state can and has intervened when parents refuse to provide lifesaving medical treatment on religious grounds) is not the same as actively crippling a child.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Now you're just semantic whoring. If I said the Hiroshima bombing was bad, people would justifiably assume I said the Hiroshima bombing was unethical, especially in a forum called science, logic and morality, and proceed to slam me for it.

Yes. Unethical. I.e wrong.

Again, killing is wrong, but it can be JUSTIFIED. Being JUSTIFIED does not make it right it means you had no other VIABLE choice.

The examples you gave were a bunch of weasily crap where you were basically saying you couldnt be bothered to take the higher road. There were dozens of viable options for each of them, hence no justification in any of them.

Moreover, your "lies are always bad" is clearly intended to apply to all situations, not just to the situation I mentioned, as some kind of life experience lacking axiom.

You really dont understand that somnething wrong and unethical can be justified do you? You honestly think something that can be justified is then, automatically, right and ethical. That's interesting.

Especially when you said "I found it's always better to just be honest." It is not better to just be honest, there are situations all over the place, and you already conceeded that by saying you yourself can think of better reasons to lie, you lamearse. Too bad you didn't think before writing your post.

I didnt concede. I never said lying was right or ethical. Only that in some situtions it can be justified. ANYTHING can be justified under the right circumstances dumbass. Murder can be justified. Genocide can be justified. Justified does not mean it's right or ethical. Jesus, and you said my worldview was narrow. You're some bad rip off of a 90s grim-and-gritty comic character.

Fine, the example is not a good one. But I can think of other ones, and it's clear that "It's always better to just be honest" is a terrible way to go through life.

Why is it so terrible? I said you can let someone down easy, or try hard in life. Lying just to cover your ass and because you cant be bothered to deal with problems is a STUPID way to go through life.

And you didnt answer his question. Or mine. Where are YOU getting all this life experience. What job do you have, how many kids have you taken care of? How old are you? What is your experience?

[18-Till-I-Die]

Oh, Slam, i recall now...

"Parental rights" protects these people, in this country at least. The same way you can refuse medical treatment on the grounds of religious belief, you can do stuff like this.

Um, no. You really need to find a source for your story, because if deaf parents had a hearing child surgically deafened, not only would they go to prison, but the surgeon who performed the operation would as well. Refusing medical treatment (and keep in mind, the state can and has intervened when parents refuse to provide lifesaving medical treatment on religious grounds) is not the same as actively crippling a child.

Well it was something brought up in a discussion thread over a year ago IIRC, i was told by someone here. I'll try to find the thread. Actually i'm hoping your right. I'll look for it and see what it says.

[Aaron]

Fine, the example is not a good one. But I can think of other ones, and it's clear that "It's always better to just be honest" is a terrible way to go through life.

I believe that it is better to be honest whenever you can be but for kids sometimes you have to simplify things and omit more complex concepts for them to grasp things. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't omit the core truth. Children are remarkably resilent and understand far more than we give them credit for, I think we can safely talk to them about things that we would normally think twice about. But we have to put it into language that they can understand. For example I told my kids that I have PTSD and how I got hurt but I told them in a way that they could grasp, in their own language using a book I got from the Militqary Familiy Resource Center specifically for that purpose. I told them the truth about an adult topic but in a childs terms.