Hoth -> Bespin trip?

[NRS Guardian]

Both the ANH dialogue, the Black Fleet Crisis Trilogy, and the CTD indicate that a ship can be tracked in hyperspace you just have to jump immediately after it, or it will be too far away for you to track and detect it.

[Kuciwalker]

What? Everything I've read indicates that you just have to have a good view of it when it jumps, so you can track the vector. Ships can't change course in hyperspace so you just have to know the direction they started in.

Another argument for my theory, btw: Han was looking through the navicomputer at the nearby worlds or systems for somewhere they could land. If they were still in the Hoth system, why would he do that? Wouldn't the rebels already have made at least a cursory glance at the nearby systems before settling on Hoth?

[Batman]

What? Everything I've read indicates that you just have to have a good view of it when it jumps, so you can track the vector. Ships can't change course in hyperspace so you just have to know the direction they started in.

Directly contradicted by The Courtship of Princess Leia and and strongly hinted at to be wrong in ANH. If you CAN'T change course in hyperspace how did Han shake off the ISDs?

[Noble Ire]

Another argument for my theory, btw: Han was looking through the navicomputer at the nearby worlds or systems for somewhere they could land. If they were still in the Hoth system, why would he do that? Wouldn't the rebels already have made at least a cursory glance at the nearby systems before settling on Hoth?

There was no great search involved in Han's discovery of Bespin, at least not on-screen. There is no reason to believe that he did anything more than pull up the navicomputer, query it for habitable planets, and note that there were very few in range. It doesn't tell us anything about the method of transit the Falcon used.

[Batman]

Another argument for my theory, btw: Han was looking through the navicomputer at the nearby worlds or systems for somewhere they could land. If they were still in the Hoth system, why would he do that? Wouldn't the rebels already have made at least a cursory glance at the nearby systems before settling on Hoth?

Why does that make one iota's worth of difference? As Degan pointed out, barring close proximity to the galactic core star systems tend to be damn far apart. Wether Bespin was close to Hoth or Anoat, it would be too Valendamned far away for STL travel (something I must admit I hadn't thought about before). Wether or not the Falcon piggybacked the ISD for one or more jumps is irrelevant to that. Unless Bespin is IN the Anoat system (unlikely given Leia's comment of 'Lando system ?' indicates they were looking at outsystem destinations) the problem remains the same no matter where the ISD took them (and the star density does not support them being close to the galactic core where such an STL voyage might be feasible).

[NRS Guardian]

What? Everything I've read indicates that you just have to have a good view of it when it jumps, so you can track the vector. Ships can't change course in hyperspace so you just have to know the direction they started in.

But then all a ship has to do to shake off pursuers is jump with one vector, come out of hyperspace, and jump on their actual vector for their real destination letting the pursuit overshoot them on the wrong vector. Yet this tactic is not seen in Star Wars.

Edit: According to all sources Hoth, Anoat, and Bespin are all in the Outer Rim away from the Core.

[SCRawl]

You know, there are very effective ways of neutralizing a (more or less) functional ship, as we saw in the beginning of ANH. I would imagine that the discipline on a warship would preclude the possibility of an over-zealous gunner, and there's always the risk of them getting away -- a risk which is admittedly small when you're chasing after them in a ship with better acceleration, better armament, and the ability to tractor them into the hangar.

And yet these neutralization methods failed miserably on the previous attempt to corral the Falcon. It's too manoeuvrable for the same sort of tactics which took down the Tantive IV, and opening up the guns would have been effective at eliminating, not capturing, the ship and its crew.

Looking at the situation with the benefit of hindsight, Vader certainly seemed to have the right idea: once he knew where they were going for sure, all he had to do was get there first and wait for them to arrive. Without a ship under them, it's a relatively simple matter to capture those filthy rebels without firing a single shot.

If we accept as fact that a backup hyperdrive would take a prohibitive amount of time to activate, then yes, my dilemma becomes false. That's the only way it does, though; even if it's horribly slow, it's still FTL, which is something we know can't be tracked.

Are you certain of this? I thought the dialogue in ANH made it pretty clear that the ISDs were chasing the Falcon through hyperspace.

In ANH there was that pesky tracking device attached to the Falcon. The strong implication was that if it had not been so equipped, tracking would not have been possible.

My understanding of the way hyperspace works is that you can't change directions once you're in it. Someone who doesn't want to be followed would make one or more jumps, changing directions at each one, so as to throw off would-be pursuers.

Getting out of the way of the star destroyers was a rather large problem facing the rebels, and if it could be solved by going FTL instead of inside an asteroid field, well, I know which way I'd choose to go.

It's obvious that they couldn't to to lightspeed inside the asteroid field because it was too dense. Hell, Vader couldn't even get a clear hyperwave signal in the field; why should we expect the Falcon to be able to jump to hyperspace without running into an asteroid.

There were all those times when they weren't in the asteroid field, though, and yet were still facing imminent capture or destruction at the hands of the Imperial forces. (They didn't know that capture was the only item on the menu, of course.)

[Batman]

What? Everything I've read indicates that you just have to have a good view of it when it jumps, so you can track the vector. Ships can't change course in hyperspace so you just have to know the direction they started in.

But then all a ship has to do to shake off pursuers is jump with one vector, come out of hyperspace, and jump on their actual vector for their real destination letting the pursuit overshoot them on the wrong vector. Yet this tactic is not seen in Star Wars.

Actually it's pretty common in the EU, especially the X-Wing series of novels.

[Batman]

Are you certain of this? I thought the dialogue in ANH made it pretty clear that the ISDs were chasing the Falcon through hyperspace.

In ANH there was that pesky tracking device attached to the Falcon. The strong implication was that if it had not been so equipped, tracking would not have been possible.

That was the escape from the DS1. He's talking about the escape from Tattooine where the dialogue DOES strongly indicate that the ISD were indeed doing just that.

My understanding of the way hyperspace works is that you can't change directions once you're in it. Someone who doesn't want to be followed would make one or more jumps, changing directions at each one, so as to throw off would-be pursuers.

Again, directly contradicted by The Courtship of Princess Leia and at least to my knowledge not overridden by higher canon.

[VT-16]

IMO Occam's Razor cuts it away and says they had to have piggybacked

Even though the fleet dispersed through hyperspace leaving the Falcon to drift among the garbage? There were no Star Destroyers left to piggyback on.

If Han didn't use the backup hyperdrive immidiately but went to try and fix the main one, it could simply mean that the other was so slow, the Empire might be waiting for them once they exited hyperspace, making another jump impossible.

[Batman]

IMO Occam's Razor cuts it away and says they had to have piggybacked

Even though the fleet dispersed through hyperspace leaving the Falcon to drift among the garbage? There were no Star Destroyers left to piggyback on.

Err-the piggyback theory is that the jumps happened BEFORE that, when the MF was still attached to the ISD. Which would explain why they're apparently no longer in the Hoth system.

[NRS Guardian]

But then all a ship has to do to shake off pursuers is jump with one vector, come out of hyperspace, and jump on their actual vector for their real destination letting the pursuit overshoot them on the wrong vector. Yet this tactic is not seen in Star Wars.

Actually it's pretty common in the EU, especially the X-Wing series of novels.

It could be that X-wings are small enough that they're hard to track through hyper so ships are forced to use the vector tracking method. The smallest ship to possibly be tracked through hyper is the MF, it could be that tracking a ship through hyper is only practical when tracking larger ships due to hyperspace distortion and the distance over which your sensors have to track a ship in hyper even if you jump just seconds behind the ship you're pursueing.

[SCRawl]

Are you certain of this? I thought the dialogue in ANH made it pretty clear that the ISDs were chasing the Falcon through hyperspace.

In ANH there was that pesky tracking device attached to the Falcon. The strong implication was that if it had not been so equipped, tracking would not have been possible.

That was the escape from the DS1. He's talking about the escape from Tattooine where the dialogue DOES strongly indicate that the ISD were indeed doing just that.

Looking at the script from ANH, here's the line in question:

Well, you can forget your troubles with those Imperial slugs. I told you I'd outrun 'em.

This can lead to two main interpretations:

1. Speed alone is responsible for this ability to evade an ISD.
2. Some sort of manoeuvre, subsequent to their entry of hyperspace, is responsible.

My sensibilities are least offended by 2, but still there can be some fine-tuning of it. For instance, can the ship change direction in hyperpace, or does it need to exit and re-enter in order to lose its pursuers?

My understanding of the way hyperspace works is that you can't change directions once you're in it. Someone who doesn't want to be followed would make one or more jumps, changing directions at each one, so as to throw off would-be pursuers.

Again, directly contradicted by The Courtship of Princess Leia and at least to my knowledge not overridden by higher canon.

Your EU reference doesn't say anything to me, since I haven't read it and don't include that sort of thing in consideration of SW details. We won't find common ground here. I'm not saying that you're full of shit, or that the reference is, but rather that I decline the opportunity to discuss it.

[Kuciwalker]

What? Everything I've read indicates that you just have to have a good view of it when it jumps, so you can track the vector. Ships can't change course in hyperspace so you just have to know the direction they started in.

Directly contradicted by The Courtship of Princess Leia and and strongly hinted at to be wrong in ANH. If you CAN'T change course in hyperspace how did Han shake off the ISDs?

I'm sure I've read somewhere that ships don't actually maneuver in hyperspace. And he shook them off because the Falcon has a faster hypderdrive.

[Kuciwalker]

Another argument for my theory, btw: Han was looking through the navicomputer at the nearby worlds or systems for somewhere they could land. If they were still in the Hoth system, why would he do that? Wouldn't the rebels already have made at least a cursory glance at the nearby systems before settling on Hoth?

There was no great search involved in Han's discovery of Bespin, at least not on-screen. There is no reason to believe that he did anything more than pull up the navicomputer, query it for habitable planets, and note that there were very few in range. It doesn't tell us anything about the method of transit the Falcon used.

That query is what I'm talking about. There can't be that many systems within a light-year of Hoth (I think a year of real time is the upper limit for any sublight trip we theorize, just because the time between ANH and ROTJ is so constrained), so he'd know something about them already. He certainly would have noticed that of the few systems that close his old buddy was on running one.

[Aaron]

I'm sure I've read somewhere that ships don't actually maneuver in hyperspace. And he shook them off because the Falcon has a faster hypderdrive.

Well it would help alot if you could cite that source as Batman has The Courtship of Princess Leia.

[Kuciwalker]

I don't have a source; I'd appreciate a cite (something more specific than an entire book, preferably) either way, since I don't actually know for sure. Where in Courtship does it say that, btw? I read it once, but that was quite a while ago.

[Batman]

In ANH there was that pesky tracking device attached to the Falcon. The strong implication was that if it had not been so equipped, tracking would not have been possible.

That was the escape from the DS1. He's talking about the escape from Tattooine where the dialogue DOES strongly indicate that the ISD were indeed doing just that.

Looking at the script from ANH, here's the line in question:

Well, you can forget your troubles with those Imperial slugs. I told you I'd outrun 'em.

This can lead to two main interpretations:
1. Speed alone is responsible for this ability to evade an ISD.

Which would have been a given from the moment they entered hyperspace. Either the Falcon is faster than the ISDs or it is not. That comment strongly suggests that Han had to WORK to get rid of them. IOW maneuvering.

2. Some sort of manoeuvre, subsequent to their entry of hyperspace, is responsible.
My sensibilities are least offended by 2, but still there can be some fine-tuning of it. For instance, can the ship change direction in hyperpace, or does it need to exit and re-enter in order to lose its pursuers?

Canon says they can.

My understanding of the way hyperspace works is that you can't change directions once you're in it. Someone who doesn't want to be followed would make one or more jumps, changing directions at each one, so as to throw off would-be pursuers.

Again, directly contradicted by The Courtship of Princess Leia and at least to my knowledge not overridden by higher canon.

Your EU reference doesn't say anything to me, since I haven't read it and don't include that sort of thing in consideration of SW details.

Tough luck. LFL does and so does this board.

We won't find common ground here. I'm not saying that you're full of shit, or that the reference is, but rather that I decline the opportunity to discuss it.

IOW you WANT to say I'm full of shit but are afraid to do so because you very much suspect the reference is correct.

[Kuciwalker]

Oh, here's an example: in Spectre of the Past, several characters encounter a Chiss spacecraft (they don't know it's Chiss then) when Mara's around. It beams a transmission and then does some sort of fancy maneuvers so the lose sensor focus in the instant it goes to hyperspace, so they can't track the jump vector and trace the location to Niraun. If one ship could track another for several seconds after it had hypered (as would be necessary to have a hope of making a jump to follow it) then that momentary occlusion wouldn't have mattered.

IIRC they did eventually get a lock on one and did trace the vector straight back.

[Batman]

I'm sure I've read somewhere that ships don't actually maneuver in hyperspace. And he shook them off because the Falcon has a faster hypderdrive.

If the Falcon simply had a faster hyperdrive Han wouldn't have needed to shake them off in the first place! Their escape would have been a foregone conclusion the moment they entered hyperspace!!!

[Kuciwalker]

That was the escape from the DS1. He's talking about the escape from Tattooine where the dialogue DOES strongly indicate that the ISD were indeed doing just that.

Looking at the script from ANH, here's the line in question:

Well, you can forget your troubles with those Imperial slugs. I told you I'd outrun 'em.

This can lead to two main interpretations:
1. Speed alone is responsible for this ability to evade an ISD.

Which would have been a given from the moment they entered hyperspace. Either the Falcon is faster than the ISDs or it is not. That comment strongly suggests that Han had to WORK to get rid of them. IOW maneuvering.

Yeah, the maneuvering so that they didn't get blown to pieces while calculating the jump. Once they jumped they were safe.

Canon says they can.

Example?

[Kuciwalker]

I'm sure I've read somewhere that ships don't actually maneuver in hyperspace. And he shook them off because the Falcon has a faster hypderdrive.

If the Falcon simply had a faster hyperdrive Han wouldn't have needed to shake them off in the first place! Their escape would have been a foregone conclusion the moment they entered hyperspace!!!

And that was certainly my conclusion when I watched the movie.

[Batman]

Oh, here's an example: in Spectre of the Past, several characters encounter a Chiss spacecraft (they don't know it's Chiss then) when Mara's around. It beams a transmission and then does some sort of fancy maneuvers so the lose sensor focus in the instant it goes to hyperspace, so they can't track the jump vector and trace the location to Niraun. If one ship could track another for several seconds after it had hypered (as would be necessary to have a hope of making a jump to follow it) then that momentary occlusion wouldn't have mattered.
IIRC they did eventually get a lock on one and did trace the vector straight back.

And that proves they can't maneuver in hyperspace-how?

[Kuciwalker]

If they could then there'd be no necessary correlation between the launch vector and the final destination.

[Kuciwalker]

Even if there's a fairly large turning radius in hyperspace* the momentary occlusion would provide no real benefit in preventing the other ships from following the Chiss ship, because they'd pick it up while it was in hyper flying from behind the obstruction.

*which btw hurts, though doesn't kill, the idea of the Millenium Falcon actually outmaneuvering the Star Destroyer in hyperspace rather than outrunning it