Hoth -> Bespin trip?

[Batman]

Which would have been a given from the moment they entered hyperspace. Either the Falcon is faster than the ISDs or it is not. That comment strongly suggests that Han had to WORK to get rid of them. IOW maneuvering.

Yeah, the maneuvering so that they didn't get blown to pieces while calculating the jump. Once they jumped they were safe.

Are you seriously this dense? Han's 'I told you I'd outrun them' comment was made long AFTER they made the jump to lightspeed indicating he had to do said maneuvering WHILE ALREADY IN HYPERSPACE!

Canon says they can.

Example?

The Courtship of Princess Leia. Not overridden by higher level canon. You were saying?

[Batman]

I'm sure I've read somewhere that ships don't actually maneuver in hyperspace. And he shook them off because the Falcon has a faster hypderdrive.

If the Falcon simply had a faster hyperdrive Han wouldn't have needed to shake them off in the first place! Their escape would have been a foregone conclusion the moment they entered hyperspace!!!

And that was certainly my conclusion when I watched the movie.

Which is why Han came in a considerable time LATER that boasting he had lost the Imperials. Yes that makes sense.

[Kuciwalker]

In the Han Solo trilogy he meets up with some absolute hyperdrive genius and gets "lol teh fastest hyperdrive evar LOL" installed, as I recall, which lends credence to the idea that the Falcon hyperdrive is actually faster than a Star Destroyer's. And why it breaks much more often.

[Batman]

If they could then there'd be no necessary correlation between the launch vector and the final destination.

Who says there is?

[Kuciwalker]

Which would have been a given from the moment they entered hyperspace. Either the Falcon is faster than the ISDs or it is not. That comment strongly suggests that Han had to WORK to get rid of them. IOW maneuvering.

Yeah, the maneuvering so that they didn't get blown to pieces while calculating the jump. Once they jumped they were safe.

Are you seriously this dense? Han's 'I told you I'd outrun them' comment was made long AFTER they made the jump to lightspeed indicating he had to do said maneuvering WHILE ALREADY IN HYPERSPACE!

I think it was made as soon as they were in hyperspace and he'd programmed the ship to remind him when they were about to come out, or whatever he has to do immediately after jumping.

Canon says they can.

Example?

The Courtship of Princess Leia. Not overridden by higher level canon. You were saying?

Perhaps you could actually give the example from the book?

[Kuciwalker]

If they could then there'd be no necessary correlation between the launch vector and the final destination.

Who says there is?

The numerous examples, some of which I've cited, of ships tracking the hyperspace jump vector of another ship in order to determine it's approximate destination? (by tracing a line on a galactic map)

[Kuciwalker]

In one of the Young Jedi books, I think the third set of them, some chick steals a ship from the Jedi Academy and flees with it to Kessel. The fleet above figures this out because Kessel is in the cone of possible trajectories their sensors determined as the ship jumped, and from other evidence.

[Batman]

Even if there's a fairly large turning radius in hyperspace* the momentary occlusion would provide no real benefit in preventing the other ships from following the Chiss ship, because they'd pick it up while it was in hyper flying from behind the obstruction.

Based on-what? We're talking 8 figure c velocities here. By the time you follow them into hyperspace they are lightyears away, and if you can't see which direction they went so you know in which direction to give chase...

*which btw hurts, though doesn't kill, the idea of the Millenium Falcon actually outmaneuvering the Star Destroyer in hyperspace rather than outrunning it

It doesn't do no such thing. Either the MF is faster or it's not. If she IS, Han doesn't have to lift a finger for them to get away from the ISDs. Yet he boasts as if it was a great achievement.

[Kuciwalker]

Even if there's a fairly large turning radius in hyperspace* the momentary occlusion would provide no real benefit in preventing the other ships from following the Chiss ship, because they'd pick it up while it was in hyper flying from behind the obstruction.

Based on-what? We're talking 8 figure c velocities here. By the time you follow them into hyperspace they are lightyears away, and if you can't see which direction they went so you know in which direction to give chase...

Because once in hyperspace the ship quickly flies past the obstruction and into full sensor view. If they ship can still track it for several seconds (as necessary to make a following jump) then it'd be right back on their radar.

It doesn't do no such thing. Either the MF is faster or it's not. If she IS, Han doesn't have to lift a finger for them to get away from the ISDs. Yet he boasts as if it was a great achievement.

I'd say it was an achievement to dodge all the firepower of an ISD long enough to calculate the jump into hyperspace. Or at least slightly difficult.

[Batman]

Yeah, the maneuvering so that they didn't get blown to pieces while calculating the jump. Once they jumped they were safe.

Are you seriously this dense? Han's 'I told you I'd outrun them' comment was made long AFTER they made the jump to lightspeed indicating he had to do said maneuvering WHILE ALREADY IN HYPERSPACE!

I think it was made as soon as they were in hyperspace and he'd programmed the ship to remind him when they were about to come out, or whatever he has to do immediately after jumping.

'You think'. Yes, that's certainly convincing.

Example?

The Courtship of Princess Leia. Not overridden by higher level canon. You were saying?

Perhaps you could actually give the example from the book?

Perhaps you could actually quote the sources that say you CANNOT change course in hyperspace?

[Kuciwalker]

I cannot remember any point in Courtship when a ship changed direction in hyperspace. Perhaps you're thinking of the little explanation about uncharted routes when Isolder was trying to decide whether to take one with his fleet?

[Batman]

If they could then there'd be no necessary correlation between the launch vector and the final destination.

Who says there is?

The numerous examples, some of which I've cited, of ships tracking the hyperspace jump vector of another ship in order to determine it's approximate destination? (by tracing a line on a galactic map)

And that means they can't change course in hyperspace how exactly? At best that means at least the Chiss cant do it with fighter size craft. It might mean people rarely bother to. Courtship says they can. ANH strongly implies they can. No overriding evidence to the contrary.

[Kuciwalker]

'You think'. Yes, that's certainly convincing.

It's my interpretation of the scene. I see no reason why it's particularly unreasonable.

Perhaps you could actually quote the sources that say you CANNOT change course in hyperspace?

Yes. They're in the EU novels. I won't tell you where, or even describe the incidents.

[Kuciwalker]

Who says there is?

The numerous examples, some of which I've cited, of ships tracking the hyperspace jump vector of another ship in order to determine it's approximate destination? (by tracing a line on a galactic map)

And that means they can't change course in hyperspace how exactly? At best that means at least the Chiss cant do it with fighter size craft. It might mean people rarely bother to. Courtship says they can. ANH strongly implies they can. No overriding evidence to the contrary.

When in Courtship did they do so? And I disagree with your interpretation of the scene in ANH; I think the Falcon is just faster than an ISD in hyperspace because he's got a jury-rigged uberhyperdrive (which I've also sourced, from the Han Solo trilogy).

[Batman]

Even if there's a fairly large turning radius in hyperspace* the momentary occlusion would provide no real benefit in preventing the other ships from following the Chiss ship, because they'd pick it up while it was in hyper flying from behind the obstruction.

Based on-what? We're talking 8 figure c velocities here. By the time you follow them into hyperspace they are lightyears away, and if you can't see which direction they went so you know in which direction to give chase...

Because once in hyperspace the ship quickly flies past the obstruction and into full sensor view. If they ship can still track it for several seconds (as necessary to make a following jump) then it'd be right back on their radar.

Which is naturally omnidirectional, cannot POSSIBLY rely on detecting some residue from a stardriving ship and has of course infinite range.

It doesn't do no such thing. Either the MF is faster or it's not. If she IS, Han doesn't have to lift a finger for them to get away from the ISDs. Yet he boasts as if it was a great achievement.

I'd say it was an achievement to dodge all the firepower of an ISD long enough to calculate the jump into hyperspace. Or at least slightly difficult.

Which is why he boasts of it immediately after the jump to lightspeed. Oh wait...

[Batman]

Perhaps you could actually quote the sources that say you CANNOT change course in hyperspace?

Yes. They're in the EU novels. I won't tell you where, or even describe the incidents.

IOW you have no case. Thanks for playing.

[Batman]

When in Courtship did they do so?

Where in the novels does it say that they CAN'T? I have given you a source. You have completely failed to give any source whatsoever for your assumption that Wars ships can't change course in hyperspace.

And I disagree with your interpretation of the scene in ANH; I think the Falcon is just faster than an ISD in hyperspace because he's got a jury-rigged uberhyperdrive (which I've also sourced, from the Han Solo trilogy).

And I think you're a lying shit. Guess what-the fact that the MF is fucking fast was never in doubt. This is relevant because of...?

[SCRawl]

I closed the fucking window in Firefox in which I had almost finished arranging my reply with all the proper formatting -- goddamn fatfinger.

That was the escape from the DS1. He's talking about the escape from Tattooine where the dialogue DOES strongly indicate that the ISD were indeed doing just that.

Looking at the script from ANH, here's the line in question:

Well, you can forget your troubles with those Imperial slugs. I told you I'd outrun 'em.

This can lead to two main interpretations:
1. Speed alone is responsible for this ability to evade an ISD.

Which would have been a given from the moment they entered hyperspace. Either the Falcon is faster than the ISDs or it is not. That comment strongly suggests that Han had to WORK to get rid of them. IOW maneuvering.

We agree here. No argument.

2. Some sort of manoeuvre, subsequent to their entry of hyperspace, is responsible.
My sensibilities are least offended by 2, but still there can be some fine-tuning of it. For instance, can the ship change direction in hyperpace, or does it need to exit and re-enter in order to lose its pursuers?

Canon says they can.

See below.

Again, directly contradicted by The Courtship of Princess Leia and at least to my knowledge not overridden by higher canon.

Your EU reference doesn't say anything to me, since I haven't read it and don't include that sort of thing in consideration of SW details.

Tough luck. LFL does and so does this board.

While I can accept that the preponderance of the evidence points to the fact that this is LFL's stance on the matter of canonicity, and further that there is a sizeable faction within the SD.net community -- including its owner -- which is a proponent of this philosophy, I hardly think that you can claim that it is the framework within which all discussion must take place. There's nothing in the board policies or posting rules which states this. Indeed, according to here, I'd say that I'm perfectly within my rights to hold that insights gained from studying the EU carry no weight. It might certainly limit the scope of our discussions, since our viewpoints on that point in particular may not always be compatible.

We won't find common ground here. I'm not saying that you're full of shit, or that the reference is, but rather that I decline the opportunity to discuss it.

IOW you WANT to say I'm full of shit but are afraid to do so because you very much suspect the reference is correct.

Not at all. If I wanted to say that you're full of shit, I'd say it.

I'm perfectly willing to concede that your reference backs up your position completely. I'm simply unwilling to admit it into a discussion on what I consider to be the topic at hand, which is the SW films. I don't require that everyone share my position, but rather that I be allowed to hold them. As I've said, that will limit some opportunities for debate.

As an aside, I think that the reason I think of hyperspace travel as "straight-line only" is that I was heavily influenced by reading Curtis Saxton's positions on the subject -- specifically, here. I also recognize that that site has a much more liberal policy on EU than I do.

[Surlethe]

And yet these neutralization methods failed miserably on the previous attempt to corral the Falcon. It's too manoeuvrable for the same sort of tactics which took down the Tantive IV, and opening up the guns would have been effective at eliminating, not capturing, the ship and its crew.

Except that the Avenger did open up with its light guns, and very quickly knocked down the Falcon's rear deflector shields, which prompted Han's desperate charge at the Avenger. It's obvious Captain Needa had every intention of eventually capturing the Millenium Falcon, and that he did not expect the Falcon to be able to outrun him STL. The same with Vader in the Executor when Lando, Chewbacca, Leia, and Luke escape from Bespin: Vader believed the simple tactic of "run it down, knock out its shields, and tractor it in" were sufficient to corral the Falcon.

Are you certain of this? I thought the dialogue in ANH made it pretty clear that the ISDs were chasing the Falcon through hyperspace.

In ANH there was that pesky tracking device attached to the Falcon. The strong implication was that if it had not been so equipped, tracking would not have been possible.

My understanding of the way hyperspace works is that you can't change directions once you're in it. Someone who doesn't want to be followed would make one or more jumps, changing directions at each one, so as to throw off would-be pursuers.

I'm talking about the jump away from Tatooine, where Han outruns the Imperial cruisers. It certainly implies that it's possible to give chase in hyperspace (and there's no reason a civilization with the ability to communicate FTL shouldn't be able to have FTL sensors).

There were all those times when they weren't in the asteroid field, though, and yet were still facing imminent capture or destruction at the hands of the Imperial forces. (They didn't know that capture was the only item on the menu, of course.)

Whoops; I misread you: I thought you said "going to FTL inside an asteroid field" instead of "going to FTL instead of an asteroid field". My apologies.

In any case, if (as I assert, and Batman corroborates) it is possible to give chase FTL, there's no point in jumping when you're severely outclassed in terms of speed.

[Batman]

@SCRawl:
Okay, I apologize, I apparently misunderstood your position. As you acknowledge that your position ignores the rules used on this forum and is your personal take on things, nothing more, that is naturally your prerogative. If you want to ignore the EU that's perfectly OK (Valen knows I'd pay good money to have the NJO declared non-canon leave alone VOY and ENT).
The default assumption is when a thread happens in PSW, LFL canon rules are in force.

[000]

"Mr. Skywalker," Isolder said, "I . . . wanted to ask you something. Dathomir is what, sixty, seventy parsecs?"

"About sixty-four parsecs," Luke answered.

"The Millennium Falcon will have to travel a twisted course through hyperspace to make that kind of jump," Isolder said. "What kind of man is Solo? Will he take the most direct route?"

Computing a jump in hyperspace was a laborious task. The nav computers tended to take "safe" routes, routes where the black holes, asteroid belts, and star systems were well charted. But such routes were often long, tediously twisted. Still, a long route was far better than a short, dangerous trip through uncharted space. "If it were just him," Luke said, "yeah, Han might take a shorter route. But he wouldn't put Leia at risk, not knowingly, anyway."

[SCRawl]

And yet these neutralization methods failed miserably on the previous attempt to corral the Falcon. It's too manoeuvrable for the same sort of tactics which took down the Tantive IV, and opening up the guns would have been effective at eliminating, not capturing, the ship and its crew.

Except that the Avenger did open up with its light guns, and very quickly knocked down the Falcon's rear deflector shields, which prompted Han's desperate charge at the Avenger. It's obvious Captain Needa had every intention of eventually capturing the Millenium Falcon, and that he did not expect the Falcon to be able to outrun him STL. The same with Vader in the Executor when Lando, Chewbacca, Leia, and Luke escape from Bespin: Vader believed the simple tactic of "run it down, knock out its shields, and tractor it in" were sufficient to corral the Falcon.

(I know that the Avenger was shooting at the Falcon, of course, but they were being careful about it. I was implying that they could have stopped her by employing a less judicious amount of firepower, but that doing so would have had a strong likelihood of leaving no prisoners for Lord Vader to interrogate.)

I accept that Needa and Vader, respectively, expected this tactic to work. And it probably would have, if not for a few things, of course. I do hold, though, that some risk accompanies employing this tactic, and further that taking the route Vader did had even fewer risks. Of course, he didn't have to be quite so cute about it, with the lunch invitation thing....

Are you certain of this? I thought the dialogue in ANH made it pretty clear that the ISDs were chasing the Falcon through hyperspace.

In ANH there was that pesky tracking device attached to the Falcon. The strong implication was that if it had not been so equipped, tracking would not have been possible.

My understanding of the way hyperspace works is that you can't change directions once you're in it. Someone who doesn't want to be followed would make one or more jumps, changing directions at each one, so as to throw off would-be pursuers.

I'm talking about the jump away from Tatooine, where Han outruns the Imperial cruisers. It certainly implies that it's possible to give chase in hyperspace (and there's no reason a civilization with the ability to communicate FTL shouldn't be able to have FTL sensors).

Yeah, Batman pointed that out, and I get it now. Again, I point to my influences from reading SWTC early on in my explorations of Star Wars to explain my mindset. I always considered hyperspace travel to be exclusively unidirectional, undetectable and almost completely blind.

To specifically address your point, I can see how someone could come away with the position that pursuit in FTL is possible. I don't believe that I can directly refute that position with anything concrete, but I do anyways. See below for slightly more detail.

There were all those times when they weren't in the asteroid field, though, and yet were still facing imminent capture or destruction at the hands of the Imperial forces. (They didn't know that capture was the only item on the menu, of course.)

Whoops; I misread you: I thought you said "going to FTL inside an asteroid field" instead of "going to FTL instead of an asteroid field". My apologies.

In any case, if (as I assert, and Batman corroborates) it is possible to give chase FTL, there's no point in jumping when you're severely outclassed in terms of speed.

No apologies necessary; shit happens.

If it were possible to pursue in FTL, why don't we see it? At the end of ESB, we see Vader standing on the bridge as the Falcon enters hyperspace, slipping from his grasp again. He doesn't tell his flunkies to try and track her, he just stalks away, completely dejected. If the Falcon had been using an inferior, backup hyperdrive, I expect that things wouldn't have looked very different, and there would be no obvious way to tell that pursuit was any more possible than if it were using its primary unit. There's always the possibility that their sensors would reveal that a fleeing ship was using a low-end hyperdrive unit, I suppose.

[SCRawl]

@SCRawl:
Okay, I apologize, I apparently misunderstood your position. As you acknowledge that your position ignores the rules used on this forum and is your personal take on things, nothing more, that is naturally your prerogative. If you want to ignore the EU that's perfectly OK (Valen knows I'd pay good money to have the NJO declared non-canon leave alone VOY and ENT).
The default assumption is when a thread happens in PSW, LFL canon rules are in force.

No problem. I can accept that you're correct about the default assumption, but not that my position ignores the rules on the forum, as you suggest. I would put it that my stance is not in line with LFL official policy in this matter, but it does not disregard or violate any of the forum rules per se.

No hard feelings, I hope.

[Kuciwalker]

Perhaps you could actually quote the sources that say you CANNOT change course in hyperspace?

Yes. They're in the EU novels. I won't tell you where, or even describe the incidents.

IOW you have no case. Thanks for playing.

You realize I was imitating you, right? Are you that fucking dense?

If you have an actual situation in which someone maneuvered at lightspeed, tell me what it is. I'm not going to reread Courtship just for you.

[000]

I provided the passage in question, I believe.