Hoth -> Bespin trip?

[Kuciwalker]

"Mr. Skywalker," Isolder said, "I . . . wanted to ask you something. Dathomir is what, sixty, seventy parsecs?"

"About sixty-four parsecs," Luke answered.

"The Millennium Falcon will have to travel a twisted course through hyperspace to make that kind of jump," Isolder said. "What kind of man is Solo? Will he take the most direct route?"

Computing a jump in hyperspace was a laborious task. The nav computers tended to take "safe" routes, routes where the black holes, asteroid belts, and star systems were well charted. But such routes were often long, tediously twisted. Still, a long route was far better than a short, dangerous trip through uncharted space. "If it were just him," Luke said, "yeah, Han might take a shorter route. But he wouldn't put Leia at risk, not knowingly, anyway."

Thank you. That definately supports his position. BUT. It can also be interpreted to mean that the course, while twisted, is still pre-set. It could also mean that he has to take a long series of straight-line jumps in different directions. In a vacuum I would agree with Batman, but I think the preponderance of circumstantial evidence points towards hyperspace jumps being unchangeable and straight-line - too many other situations don't make as much sense if you can maneuver.

[Batman]

Somebody tell me the guy's kidding. Kuciwalker can't be arsed to mention the fucking resource 'maneuvering=no go' is stated in but I have to provide a page number?

[Kuciwalker]

And SCRawl makes an excellent point in that the Executor does not pursue the Falcon when it makes the final jump in TESB.

[Kuciwalker]

I provided the passage in question, I believe.

Yeah I saw that after I replied to Batman. Thanks.

[Kuciwalker]

When in Courtship did they do so?

Where in the novels does it say that they CAN'T? I have given you a source. You have completely failed to give any source whatsoever for your assumption that Wars ships can't change course in hyperspace.

And I disagree with your interpretation of the scene in ANH; I think the Falcon is just faster than an ISD in hyperspace because he's got a jury-rigged uberhyperdrive (which I've also sourced, from the Han Solo trilogy).

And I think you're a lying shit. Guess what-the fact that the MF is fucking fast was never in doubt. This is relevant because of...?

Where am I lying? And as you said, if the MF is faster than an ISD in hyper than there's no reason to think Han was maneuvering while in hyperspace after the jump to Alderaan in ANH.

And I've provided several examples of circumstantial evidence that support straight-line fixed jumps. None of them explicity say so, but they don't make as much sense if a ship can change course.

This isn't the same thing but also the Black Fleet Crisis books state that you can't communicate with a ship in hyper, as I recall. There's a short explanation at one point about how once a fleet has launched there's no way to recall it before it reaches its destination.

[Kuciwalker]

Somebody tell me the guy's kidding. Kuciwalker can't be arsed to mention the fucking resource 'maneuvering=no go' is stated in but I have to provide a page number?

Are you that fucking dense? I didn't have any such specific cite; I was mocking your constant assertion "It's in Courtship! Somewhere!" without even an explanation of the particular example in Courtship. Finally, someone else told me what you were talking about. For all my claims I've either cited a specific event (no page number, sorry) or a book and if you want I'll be happy to go back through that book (within a reasonable timeframe; I'm flying out of town tomorrow) and find the page number and quote.

[Batman]

And SCRawl makes an excellent point in that the Executor does not pursue the Falcon when it makes the final jump in TESB.

Because Executor is naturally able to follow the MF closely enough to track it despite your earlier insistence that the MF has an unusually fast hyperdrive. Evidence that Executor is as fast as the MF FTL is...?

[Kuciwalker]

And SCRawl makes an excellent point in that the Executor does not pursue the Falcon when it makes the final jump in TESB.

Because Executor is naturally able to follow the MF closely enough to track it despite your earlier insistence that the MF has an unusually fast hyperdrive. Evidence that Executor is as fast as the MF FTL is...?

What. The. Fuck. I thought it was my argument that the Falcon is faster than a Star Destroyer (and I don't know if SD's and SSD's have any difference in hyperdrive speed). Thus, as soon as they go to lightspeed in ANH and Han does whatever you have to do once you've made a jump (tell it when to come out or make the computer tea, I dunno), he comes out and says "I told you I'd outrun 'em" because he'll arrive at Alderaan well before the Star Destroyer. If the Falcon were slower than the Star Destroyer it'd be screwed because they could just jump and arrive at its destination first.

That's why I brought up the Han Solo trilogy.

[Kuciwalker]

I'll amend one thing: jumps aren't completely straight-line. As I recall, in the first Rogue Squadron book they discuss how a hyperspace jump is affected by gravitational fields (e.g. from a stellar mass) and that bends the path somewhat. If you want I'll pull out the book later and dig up the reference (it's from Corran Horn plotting the squadron's jump in advance for some operation) but now is time for sleep.

[Batman]

Where am I lying? And as you said, if the MF is faster than an ISD in hyper than there's no reason to think Han was maneuvering while in hyperspace after the jump to Alderaan in ANH.

Except he boasted about it long after they were under stardrive. Do you have a reading comprehension problem? If it was a simple speed thing it would have been a done deal the moment they went lightspeed. It apparently WASN'T. As Courtship supports.

And I've provided several examples of circumstantial evidence that support straight-line fixed jumps.

No you haven't. I note a distinct lack of references, leave alone actual quotes (which you asked of me, I might add).

None of them explicity say so, but they don't make as much sense if a ship can change course.

Who cares? NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS. Courtship says they can. ANH strongly indicates they do. Nothing overrides it. You lose.

[SCRawl]

And SCRawl makes an excellent point in that the Executor does not pursue the Falcon when it makes the final jump in TESB.

Because Executor is naturally able to follow the MF closely enough to track it despite your earlier insistence that the MF has an unusually fast hyperdrive. Evidence that Executor is as fast as the MF FTL is...?

Actually, the point here is that Vader (and others who have been left in the dust in prior encounters) declines the opportunity to pursue without even making an attempt. They only know that the Falcon is fast by their previous encounters with it. They've been told that her hyperdrive unit has been rendered inoperative. They don't know for a fact that she isn't using a backup unit (if, indeed, such a device exists); if it is, then according to your position pursuit would be possible. They all just seem to shrug their shoulders and say "Yep, another one got away."

One could make the counter-argument that those aboard the Executor do know, in fact, that the Falcon is using her primary unit by making some sensor readings, and that the sensor tech guys just don't want to point out the obvious to the steaming mad Lord Vader. I just think that it makes more sense that ships in hyperspace are nigh-untrackable, without regard for their relative FTL speed.

[Batman]

What. The. Fuck. I thought it was my argument that the Falcon is faster than a Star Destroyer (and I don't know if SD's and SSD's have any difference in hyperdrive speed).

That you're ignorant of differing hyperdrive speeds for different ships is frankly not my problem.

Thus, as soon as they go to lightspeed in ANH and Han does whatever you have to do once you've made a jump (tell it when to come out or make the computer tea, I dunno), he comes out and says "I told you I'd outrun 'em"

Except that's not what actually happens in the movie.

[Kuciwalker]

Except he boasted about it long after they were under stardrive. Do you have a reading comprehension problem? If it was a simple speed thing it would have been a done deal the moment they went lightspeed. It apparently WASN'T.

As I've said half a dozen times (I think you're the one who can't read) I don't think there was any significant intervening time between the jump to lightspace and the boast, except whatever time Han had to finish up in the cockpit before going back to the passengers.

And I've provided several examples of circumstantial evidence that support straight-line fixed jumps.

No you haven't. I note a distinct lack of references, leave alone actual quotes (which you asked of me, I might add).

I have provided references, are you blind?

I never asked you for the quote or page number. I'd have been perfectly happy with you saying "Isolder said Han would have had to plot a 'twisted course' to get to Dathomir." Just saying "oh there's something supporting me in this book, but I won't tell you any more than that" is pointless.

None of them explicity say so, but they don't make as much sense if a ship can change course.

Who cares? NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS. Courtship says they can. ANH strongly indicates they do. Nothing overrides it. You lose.

Courtship can be interpreted differently. As I said, yours is the more natural reading and I would agree with it were it not for so many other cases that make much less sense if jumps aren't straight-line. And I disagree that ANH strongly supports either side (I think it moderately supports mine), and there's still TESB. If the Falcon was chased in hyperspace by the Devastator in ANH, why wasn't it chased by the Executor at the end of TESB?

[Batman]

Except he boasted about it long after they were under stardrive. Do you have a reading comprehension problem? If it was a simple speed thing it would have been a done deal the moment they went lightspeed. It apparently WASN'T.

As I've said half a dozen times (I think you're the one who can't read) I don't think there was any significant intervening time between the jump to lightspace and the boast, except whatever time Han had to finish up in the cockpit before going back to the passengers.

You THINK so. Your EVIDENCE for that being the case is?
And my apologies. You HAVE presented evidence for straight-line fixed jumps. What I was trying to get across was you completely and utterly failed to present evidence for them being INCAPABLE of changing course in hyperspace.

I have provided references, are you blind?

None of which shows they can't change course in hyperspace.

I never asked you for the quote or page number. I'd have been perfectly happy with you saying "Isolder said Han would have had to plot a 'twisted course' to get to Dathomir." Just saying "oh there's something supporting me in this book, but I won't tell you any more than that" is pointless.

As opposed to 'some passage in some book I read the name of which I can't recall leave alone where in it it happened but it said they can't change course in hyperspace'? I gave you a title fuckface. Tell me in which book it says you can't change direction under stardrive.

None of them explicity say so, but they don't make as much sense if a ship can change course.

Who cares? NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS. Courtship says they can. ANH strongly indicates they do. Nothing overrides it. You lose.

Courtship can be interpreted differently. As I said, yours is the more natural reading and I would agree with it were it not for so many other cases that make much less sense if jumps aren't straight-line.

Which fail to contradict the 'can maneuver in hyperspace' take.

And I disagree that ANH strongly supports either side (I think it moderately supports mine)

And I think you're a complete and utter moron. So?

and there's still TESB. If the Falcon was chased in hyperspace by the Devastator in ANH, why wasn't it chased by the Executor at the end of TESB?

Different hyperdrive speeds. Next. Your evidence that since an ISD is able to chase the MF in stardrive, an Executor will be able to is...?

[NRS Guardian]

Actually, the point here is that Vader (and others who have been left in the dust in prior encounters) declines the opportunity to pursue without even making an attempt. They only know that the Falcon is fast by their previous encounters with it. They've been told that her hyperdrive unit has been rendered inoperative. They don't know for a fact that she isn't using a backup unit (if, indeed, such a device exists); if it is, then according to your position pursuit would be possible. They all just seem to shrug their shoulders and say "Yep, another one got away."

It could be that the Falcon is so far away due to the speed of hyperdrive that it can no longer be tracked by the Executor. Also, it could be that the Executor isn't ready for a jump to hyper in time to pursue. Afterall they have TIEs and stuff that might need to be recovered. Note the ISDs pursueing the MF from Tatooine didn't launch fighters, so none needed to be recovered.

If hyperspace travel is straight-line and ships are tracked using their entry vector, it would have been easy for the Executor to track the MF to its destination, yet they give up.

It seems to me the hyperspace pursuit idea fits better with the end of TESB, than the vector-tracking theory.

[Patrick Degan]

Precisely the point, which is why the STL transit theory is unlikely except if we're talking about two planets in a widely separated binary star system or the aforementioned piggyback or emergency hyperjump drive theories. But you'll never find two wholly different star systems close together at any appreciable distance away from the galactic core.

We do know that SW fighters can easily accelerate to near c in the NJO. There is no reason to assume that the MF couldn't achieve this.

Especially if we argue that the backup hyperdrive was essentially something that allowed them to travel at something just past lightspeed.

Unfortunately, that does not solve the problem that either such transit is incompatable with the timeframe of the movie. A near-c journey is fine for Han, Leia and Chewie, but to the outside universe still takes years in the doing. A transit "something just past lightspeed" doesn't get the MF to Bespin in anything shorter than "something around a few months/years" given the distances involved.

[Tychu]

in the ESB when Han and co. are in the Falcon he says the hyperdrive is leaking and he cant make the rendezvous and he needs to find a suitable planet. he never says that the hyperdrive is out just that it will be out.

and the fact that Leia and all of them are wearing the same clothes that they wore when they boarded the Falcon on Hoth says that they used the hyperdrive until it couldnt go anymore and they got to Bespin

I think you're confusing TPM with ESB. I don't have the movies at my fingertips, but I'm pretty sure the hyperdrive was completely kaput (to use the technical term). If it was working, why didn't they use it to escape from the ISDs back on Hoth?

No, there was sublight travel of some significant distance. The only question is how far that distance was.

i dont have the movies available right now either but he never says its down. He says that they cant rendezvous with the Rebel fleet and he has to look for a shorter travel....place. He couldnt use the hyperdrive in the Hoth asteroid field because he's in an asteroid field. its been stated all over the Star Wars cannon, EU and movie level that theres just to much moving mass that it would be suicidal to make such a jump in an asteroid field

[Patrick Degan]

in the ESB when Han and co. are in the Falcon he says the hyperdrive is leaking and he cant make the rendezvous and he needs to find a suitable planet. he never says that the hyperdrive is out just that it will be out.

and the fact that Leia and all of them are wearing the same clothes that they wore when they boarded the Falcon on Hoth says that they used the hyperdrive until it couldnt go anymore and they got to Bespin

I think you're confusing TPM with ESB. I don't have the movies at my fingertips, but I'm pretty sure the hyperdrive was completely kaput (to use the technical term). If it was working, why didn't they use it to escape from the ISDs back on Hoth?

No, there was sublight travel of some significant distance. The only question is how far that distance was.

i dont have the movies available right now either but he never says its down. He says that they cant rendezvous with the Rebel fleet and he has to look for a shorter travel....place. He couldnt use the hyperdrive in the Hoth asteroid field because he's in an asteroid field. its been stated all over the Star Wars cannon, EU and movie level that theres just to much moving mass that it would be suicidal to make such a jump in an asteroid field

Han doesn't have to say the hyperdrive is down —it fails to activate when he pulls the lever.

[Tychu]

I think you're confusing TPM with ESB. I don't have the movies at my fingertips, but I'm pretty sure the hyperdrive was completely kaput (to use the technical term). If it was working, why didn't they use it to escape from the ISDs back on Hoth?

No, there was sublight travel of some significant distance. The only question is how far that distance was.

i dont have the movies available right now either but he never says its down. He says that they cant rendezvous with the Rebel fleet and he has to look for a shorter travel....place. He couldnt use the hyperdrive in the Hoth asteroid field because he's in an asteroid field. its been stated all over the Star Wars cannon, EU and movie level that theres just to much moving mass that it would be suicidal to make such a jump in an asteroid field

Han doesn't have to say the hyperdrive is down —it fails to activate when he pulls the lever.

like i said before i dont have the movies handy, so you might be right but doesent he pull the lever before they spend about a day in the asteroid fixing what ever they can and then hitching a ride on the StarDestroyer and finding where a local system is?

[Darth Yoshi]

Han also tries the hyperdrive right before the Avenger takes down the Falcon's shields.

Incidentally, in ANH everyone is in the cockpit when the Falcon jumps away from Tatooine. By the time Han enters the lounge, Luke is already training with the remote, and the snippet of Ben's lesson implies they've been training for some time.

[Surlethe]

Yeah, Batman pointed that out, and I get it now. Again, I point to my influences from reading SWTC early on in my explorations of Star Wars to explain my mindset. I always considered hyperspace travel to be exclusively unidirectional, undetectable and almost completely blind.

Dr Saxton's representation of hyperspace travel is simply a state where the galaxy is traveling FTL relative to you, so it's dangerous to jump blind, exceedingly difficult to detect with STL sensors, and if you do detect something, it's coming toward you faster than c. I don't think that these restrictions, however, apply to two ships who are traveling FTL; they'd be STL relatively, so to them, it would simply be another STL chase (one where, incidentally, the universe is FTL relative to them). Moreover, we know it's possible to sense things faster than light (hence, the Echo Base realizing the Empire had arrived when they dropped out of lightspeed at the edge of the system); this seems to imply the ability to sense things traveling faster than light.

If it were possible to pursue in FTL, why don't we see it? At the end of ESB, we see Vader standing on the bridge as the Falcon enters hyperspace, slipping from his grasp again. He doesn't tell his flunkies to try and track her, he just stalks away, completely dejected. If the Falcon had been using an inferior, backup hyperdrive, I expect that things wouldn't have looked very different, and there would be no obvious way to tell that pursuit was any more possible than if it were using its primary unit. There's always the possibility that their sensors would reveal that a fleeing ship was using a low-end hyperdrive unit, I suppose.

That last possibility is the best, I think. Given that they can reliably detect objects traveling faster than c, if it takes the Falcon too much time to leave their sensor range, they could quite probably give chase and catch her. This point also makes sense for Han losing the ISDs in ANH: he could have simply outrun their sensors, dropped back into realspace, and made a course change to his actual destination; there's no particular reason to require maneuverability to evade a FTL chase.

[SCRawl]

Actually, the point here is that Vader (and others who have been left in the dust in prior encounters) declines the opportunity to pursue without even making an attempt. They only know that the Falcon is fast by their previous encounters with it. They've been told that her hyperdrive unit has been rendered inoperative. They don't know for a fact that she isn't using a backup unit (if, indeed, such a device exists); if it is, then according to your position pursuit would be possible. They all just seem to shrug their shoulders and say "Yep, another one got away."

It could be that the Falcon is so far away due to the speed of hyperdrive that it can no longer be tracked by the Executor. Also, it could be that the Executor isn't ready for a jump to hyper in time to pursue. Afterall they have TIEs and stuff that might need to be recovered. Note the ISDs pursueing the MF from Tatooine didn't launch fighters, so none needed to be recovered.

Vader wouldn't have thought twice about abandoning his fighters to take up the chase, if there were even the slightest chance of success. Besides, there were (probably) other ships around which could have easily accomodated a few extra fighters on a short-term basis.

If hyperspace travel is straight-line and ships are tracked using their entry vector, it would have been easy for the Executor to track the MF to its destination, yet they give up.

You have it backwards. It's because he gives up that we learn -- or should at least strongly suspect -- that hyperspace pursuit is, as a practical exercise, impossible.

I don't suggest that entry-vector tracking is sufficient to determine destination. My assumption is that SOP for fugitives like our heroes is to enter hyperspace, exit a little while later, pick another direction, go FTL for another distance, rinse, repeat as necessary.

(Anyways, just to clarify, entry vector just gives you direction (and, possibly, speed). What you'd be missing is the length of time of travel. If you had that, then you could use your FTL communication and have someone pick them up on the other end.)

Actually, there's a line in ESB about tracking the Falcon along its last known vector, but they all know it's a needle in a haystack. I think everyone here knows the line, but I'll look for it later just in case. My daughter now wants to watch a video on this computer :O).

[Ghost Rider]

i dont have the movies available right now either but he never says its down. He says that they cant rendezvous with the Rebel fleet and he has to look for a shorter travel....place. He couldnt use the hyperdrive in the Hoth asteroid field because he's in an asteroid field. its been stated all over the Star Wars cannon, EU and movie level that theres just to much moving mass that it would be suicidal to make such a jump in an asteroid field

Han doesn't have to say the hyperdrive is down —it fails to activate when he pulls the lever.

like i said before i dont have the movies handy, so you might be right but doesent he pull the lever before they spend about a day in the asteroid fixing what ever they can and then hitching a ride on the StarDestroyer and finding where a local system is?

Yes, and the scene before hand, the ISD Avenger gives him a hard kick in the ass, thus knocking out the Hyperdrive.

[SCRawl]

Yeah, Batman pointed that out, and I get it now. Again, I point to my influences from reading SWTC early on in my explorations of Star Wars to explain my mindset. I always considered hyperspace travel to be exclusively unidirectional, undetectable and almost completely blind.

Dr Saxton's representation of hyperspace travel is simply a state where the galaxy is traveling FTL relative to you, so it's dangerous to jump blind, exceedingly difficult to detect with STL sensors, and if you do detect something, it's coming toward you faster than c. I don't think that these restrictions, however, apply to two ships who are traveling FTL; they'd be STL relatively, so to them, it would simply be another STL chase (one where, incidentally, the universe is FTL relative to them). Moreover, we know it's possible to sense things faster than light (hence, the Echo Base realizing the Empire had arrived when they dropped out of lightspeed at the edge of the system); this seems to imply the ability to sense things traveling faster than light.

My impression of what the rebels detected upon the arrival of the Death Squadron was the transition of a bunch of huge ships from hyperspace to realspace. There's quite a lot of energy expended in that transition, apparently, so it would show up readily, especially if the rebels -- a rather well-equipped and organized bunch -- had deployed some sort of listening devices looking for just that sort of thing.

If it were possible to pursue in FTL, why don't we see it? At the end of ESB, we see Vader standing on the bridge as the Falcon enters hyperspace, slipping from his grasp again. He doesn't tell his flunkies to try and track her, he just stalks away, completely dejected. If the Falcon had been using an inferior, backup hyperdrive, I expect that things wouldn't have looked very different, and there would be no obvious way to tell that pursuit was any more possible than if it were using its primary unit. There's always the possibility that their sensors would reveal that a fleeing ship was using a low-end hyperdrive unit, I suppose.

That last possibility is the best, I think. Given that they can reliably detect objects traveling faster than c, if it takes the Falcon too much time to leave their sensor range, they could quite probably give chase and catch her. This point also makes sense for Han losing the ISDs in ANH: he could have simply outrun their sensors, dropped back into realspace, and made a course change to his actual destination; there's no particular reason to require maneuverability to evade a FTL chase.

(Emphasis mine.)

This is the way that I had assumed things had happened. (This is after a significant amount of thought, of course; when I first watched ANH I was all of six years old, back in 1977, and I wasn't doing this sort of critical analysis.)

Just to complete this topic here, my thinking is that outrunning their sensors would happen rather quickly, since he's going FTL and the Imperials weren't. Even a theoretical crappy backup unit, which is at least capable of exceeding c, would (IMHO) be out of trackable range in seconds. It would probably take much longer than that for a ship the size of an ISD to get the hyperspace entry vector, orient the ship in that direction, and engage the hyperdrive to pursue, by which time the fleeing ship could have re-entered realspace and started off again in another direction. It is for this reason that I believe that fleeing using a backup hyperdrive unit, if it can be activated in any reasonable amount of time, would be effective, and used if available. (I use this argument to refute that of those who would deny the viability of such a tactic.)

[NRS Guardian]

Vader wouldn't have thought twice about abandoning his fighters to take up the chase, if there were even the slightest chance of success. Besides, there were (probably) other ships around which could have easily accomodated a few extra fighters on a short-term basis.

My point about the TIEs was that the Executor wasn't expecting or ready for an immediate hyper jump at the end of TESB, and the ISDs in ANH probably were. It seems to me that with the speed of hyperdrive one has to jump immediately after their prey or it will soon be so far ahead of you that you can't track it, because it's out of sensor range. So it could be that the MF jumps so unexpectedly that the Executor is caught flat-footed, and by the time Vader walks away he knows that the MF is too far ahead to be tracked or pursued by the Executor. Afterall a ship can't be made immediately ready to jump, especially a major warship like the Executor.

If hyper tracking uses vector-tracking then there would still have been hope that Vader could find out where the MF was going and track and capture it. However, if tracking requires active pursuit then if you miss the short window of jumping immediately after them there is little hope of you catching what your chasing. That is why I said TESB tends to support active pursuit.