Prostitution.

[WarHawk]

-Moral or immoral?
-how it would be affected by legalizing it?
-benefits of legalization?

My thoughts:

-it is Moral, no matter how pathetic it might be to pay for sex, i just can't see anything immoral about sex between two adults.

-I head someone saying that if legalized it would be taxed and prostitutes would probably make half of what they earn now.

-Benefits are endless, no underaged prostitution, no more child abuse, prostitutes could actually get help from the police when assaulted, no more abusive pimps, STD tests on the girls/guys, legal brothels instead of having them on the street, etc.

your thoughts.

[Darth Wong]

It's been legalized in certain jurisdictions without society collapsing (New Zealand, Germany, Amsterdam). The real trick to making legalization work is to put in a real effort at enforcement and regulation of applicable laws. If people think they can legalize it and then scale down enforcement efforts, they're in for a rude shock. You'll still have to deal with the people who will try to operate outside the law, especially the underage prosties and the pimps/johns who are taking advantage of them.

[Superman]

no more child abuse

Unfortunately, child abuse isn't going anywhere. For abusers, this drive to sexually assault children is a paraphilia and has little to do with relieving sexual tension.

For the most part, I think you're correct. Other than STD risk (which exists anyway), it's a victimless crime. I'd rather have the police devoting their resources to crimes where people actually get hurt, have property stolen, etc. Stopping prostitutes seems pretty silly.

[WarHawk]

well you are both right, it wont stop STDs or Child exploitation, because sadly, as Darth said, there is always someone that likes to operate outside the law. But by legalizing prostitution it would ceirtanly be much safer and much better than it is now.

[Spetulhu]

-I head someone saying that if legalized it would be taxed and prostitutes would probably make half of what they earn now.

Really? I thought illegal prostitution meant there's a need for middle men who all take their cut of the money. Someone to hire apartments, someone to make appointments, someone to rough up misbehaving customers and prostitutes. The real workers don't get very much of the money to start with unless they work alone.

[Superman]

-I head someone saying that if legalized it would be taxed and prostitutes would probably make half of what they earn now.

Really? I thought illegal prostitution meant there's a need for middle men who all take their cut of the money. Someone to hire apartments, someone to make appointments, someone to rough up misbehaving customers and prostitutes. The real workers don't get very much of the money to start with unless they work alone.

I read "The Fun House" by Andy Kaufman's buddy, Bob Zamuda (sp). In it, he talked about frequenting whore houses in Nevada and the rates that the women charge. He did the math and figured out that most of those women were making about the same, if not more, of what Andy Kaufman was actually making as a celebrity. They are frequented often and charge quite a bit.

[bilateralrope]

-I head someone saying that if legalized it would be taxed and prostitutes would probably make half of what they earn now.

Since its been legalized in some jurisdictions, there should be some data somewhere about how it effected the prostitutes income. But I don't know where to look for this information. I'd expect this to be the same whenever legalization occurs.

[Alex Moon]

There isn't any evidence that legalization does much to solve the problems of prostitution. Sweden recriminalized prostitution several years ago, and in Germany the results of legalization have been mixed, at best. Many prostitutes in Europe are illegal immigrants, and are at the mercy of the mafia.

The problem with prostitution is that it naturally lends itself to criminal elements. The cash nature of the business, combined with easy entry and anonymity, make it a choice for women who are desperate for money, and for organized crime and thugs who can control them.

[Darth Wong]

The problem with prostitution is that it naturally lends itself to criminal elements.

Which is why you need to do two things in order to successfully legalize prostitution:

1) Actually make the legal brothels an attractive place to work and to visit. This entails making sure that customers can safeguard their privacy, among other things. A lot of people think that legalizing it means we can find a way to keep tabs on the kind of people who use prostitutes, which is fucking stupid because then you would only make people continue to seek illegal prostitutes.

2) Crack down on the remaining illegal prostitutes until the underground industry becomes very weak. This takes time.

The idea that legalizing it will magically solve all problems without any other work is silly; lots of other things need to be done. But that doesn't mean it isn't a worthwhile endeavour either. Every police officer who wastes his time going after consenting adults is an officer who COULD be trying to nail pimps and rescue underaged or slave prostitutes.

[Alex Moon]

Since its been legalized in some jurisdictions, there should be some data somewhere about how it effected the prostitutes income. But I don't know where to look for this information. I'd expect this to be the same whenever legalization occurs.

The problem is that legalization has often come with heavy regulation attached. Places like Nevada, where prostitutes can make good money, heavily regulate where they can operate. Because of this regulation, legal brothels don't face competition, so can charge more for their services.

[Spin Echo]

There isn't any evidence that legalization does much to solve the problems of prostitution. Sweden recriminalized prostitution several years ago, and in Germany the results of legalization have been mixed, at best. Many prostitutes in Europe are illegal immigrants, and are at the mercy of the mafia.

I'll second that. The tougher prositution laws in Sweden have led to a larger influx of human trafficking into Norway, where prositutition laws are still lax. The overwhelming majority of prostitutes in Norway are now foreigners. Despite the fact prostitution is pretty much legal, these girls don't get help from the authorities, like War Hawk suggested they would. They're in a strange country where they don't know anything about the culture or how to speak the language. The girls are poorly educated, so in addition to violence, threats of voodoo curses against the girls' families are used by pimps to keep them in line.

Like Wong said, making prostitution legal only helps if you also crack down on the illegal prostitution.

[Solauren]

Combine the lack of language abilities with the fact that alot of the girls come from areas/countires with corrupt police. They think the cops are the same everywhere, and the pimp convinces them he works for/with the police (or is a cop), and they won't try approaching them.

[Spyder]

It's been legalized in certain jurisdictions without society collapsing (New Zealand, Germany, Amsterdam). The real trick to making legalization work is to put in a real effort at enforcement and regulation of applicable laws. If people think they can legalize it and then scale down enforcement efforts, they're in for a rude shock. You'll still have to deal with the people who will try to operate outside the law, especially the underage prosties and the pimps/johns who are taking advantage of them.

The idea behind legalization here was actually so that they could provide protection for prostitutes. The police are now required to respond to cases brought to them by sex workers. So yeah, downsizing enforcement would be pretty stupid, if anything you'd need to up scale.

[Mange]

My position is this: What's going on in the bedroom between two (or more) consenting adults is of no business to anyone else.

[The Grim Squeaker]

My position is this: What's going on in the bedroom between two (or more) consenting adults is of no business to anyone else.

So what about Rape (Which can happen in married couples) or beatings?

[Lusankya]

My position is this: What's going on in the bedroom between two (or more) consenting adults is of no business to anyone else.

So what about Rape (Which can happen in married couples) or beatings?

Then it's not consenting. Duh.


ROAR!!!!! says GOJIRA!!!!!

[Mange]

My position is this: What's going on in the bedroom between two (or more) consenting adults is of no business to anyone else.

So what about Rape (Which can happen in married couples) or beatings?

I believe my words was CONSENTING adults. Read the next time.

[Justforfun000]

I believe my words was CONSENTING adults. Read the next time.

Perhaps he believes the wife consents to being beaten because she allowed it.....

[wolveraptor]

I know that there's a huge problem in Europe with the illegal traficking of Eastern European women into the European Union, but for some reason, I haven't heard of such a relationship between Mexico and the US. Anyone know why that is?

[Thinkmarble]

-Moral or immoral?

Amoral.
Why does noone ever asks if selling Hamburgers is immoral or moral ?

-how it would be affected by legalizing it?

Some prostitutes get better working conditions

-benefits of legalization?

Some prostitutes get better working conditions ?

My thoughts:
-it is Moral, no matter how pathetic it might be to pay for sex, i just can't see anything immoral about sex between two adults.
-I head someone saying that if legalized it would be taxed and prostitutes would probably make half of what they earn now.

If they do not want to get taxed they shall work black as anyone else

I know that there's a huge problem in Europe with the illegal traficking of Eastern European women into the European Union, but for some reason, I haven't heard of such a relationship between Mexico and the US. Anyone know why that is?

Know what is really fucked up ? Trafficked women forced into prostitution being deported as illegal immigrants the second the trial is over.

[Stormbringer]

I know that there's a huge problem in Europe with the illegal traficking of Eastern European women into the European Union, but for some reason, I haven't heard of such a relationship between Mexico and the US. Anyone know why that is?

It certainly happens plenty. Trafficing human beings for the sex trade is a common enough fate. Forces prostitution is a very common fate for many illegal aliens.

It's just that in a lot cases, America has a signficant underclass in the inner cities that are preyed on as well. They naturally get more attention than illegal aliens.

[Chiaroscuro]

Actually make the legal brothels an attractive place to work and to visit.

I think the key is in what Darth Wong is saying. I don't think the act of prostitution is immoral, but having young girls forced to become prostitutes and given no choice in career for the rest of their lives is, well, bad.
But on the other hand, if all women were able to choose exactly what job they wanted, would there be any prostitutes?
And if it comes to that, can't men find consenting adults elsewhere? Why do we need brothels at all? I'm not saying it's immoral, but it seems unfair to women--I know there are male prostitutes, but that's a lot less common.

[Spin Echo]

I don't think the act of prostitution is immoral, but having young girls forced to become prostitutes and given no choice in career for the rest of their lives is, well, bad. But on the other hand, if all women were able to choose exactly what job they wanted, would there be any prostitutes?

While I wouldn't class it as exactly the job they want, there's a rise in the number of clean Eastern european women coming of their own free will to Scandinavia to work as prostitutes. The pay is good and doesn't require much training. From what I've heard, the Nevada ranches are similar. The girls working there aren't doing it to support a drug habit or because they're forced into it; it's just an easy way to make good money.

[Darth Wong]

I think the key is in what Darth Wong is saying. I don't think the act of prostitution is immoral, but having young girls forced to become prostitutes and given no choice in career for the rest of their lives is, well, bad.

But on the other hand, if all women were able to choose exactly what job they wanted, would there be any prostitutes?

I don't believe that smart, well-educated women would choose this for a career. But let's be realistic, there are plenty of women out there who lack the qualifications to get another job, for a variety of reasons ranging from a horrible background to abject stupidity and laziness. They're the kind of women who would eagerly become prostitutes if the money is good and the conditions are acceptable.

Are we taking advantage of such women by making that kind of job available to them? I suppose you could argue that, but you could make the same argument about all of the low-end jobs in the world. For that matter, you could say the same thing about the military; like it or not, the military has positioned itself as a way out of poverty in America.

And if it comes to that, can't men find consenting adults elsewhere? Why do we need brothels at all? I'm not saying it's immoral, but it seems unfair to women--I know there are male prostitutes, but that's a lot less common.

Male prostitutes are less common because womens' sex drive is not as ravenous as mens' sex drive, and gays are a fairly small minority. I don't know if I would say it's unfair in that aspect. As for needing brothels, there are plenty of conditions. I'll give you one example: I watched a documentary about how sex workers are brought in to "service" disabled men in certain chronic-care facilities in Europe. Do you think these guys are going to be picking up hot dates any time soon?

Facing reality, prostitution is pathetic for both the prostitutes and the johns. But that doesn't mean it's immoral; it's just pathetic. And there are plenty of people in this world who are, well, pathetic. Those people won't disappear if you outlaw prostitution.

[Superman]

Quick side note that kind of supports D. Wong's comment: I know a couple of ex prostitutes from working in rehab, and that's because they are in recovery. The number of hookers who are supporting a habit is probably in the ninety something percent range, and it's quick money.