An exercise in Alternate History IV

[jaeger115]

Everyone knows that Hitler was a moron who struck it rich by tapping into the latent hatred of the German people and some incredible strokes of luck. Now suppose I, Evan Taylor, traveled back in time and took Hitler's place (don't even ask about what happens to Hitler). I bet I could have done a much better job of fighting WWII than him.

(note: Assume that I carry out Hitler's "final solution")

So here's my strategy:

I remove Hitler from command and take his place in 1937. Assuming that the transition goes smoothly, I quickly assemble my generals and begin a massive rearmament program and try to keep it under wraps in order to keep Britain and France thinking that I'm cool with the Versailles Treaty.

I develop U-boats first and use these to disrupt the shipping lanes between America and Western Europe. Since I don't assume responsibility for the attacks, no one knows who did it. Suspicion begins to develop between the USA and Great Britain over the shipping lanes. At the same time, I make the Nazi-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact and keep it. Stalin is free to take Poland and all of the Baltic states, while i concentrate on western europe and the USA.

The U-boat attacks continue even as I build up my Kreigmarine, Luftwaffe, and Wehrmanscht. Soon enough suspicion on both sides of the Atlantic reaches the breaking point and I launch an all-out attack through Belgium. The tiny little country is overrun and my forces move swiftly through France. Soon France falls and thanks to the NSNAP, I have more troops ready to defend against a counterattack by the USA, Canada, and Great Britain.

What should I do next?

[Howedar]

I remove Hitler from command and take his place in 1937. Assuming that the transition goes smoothly, I quickly assemble my generals and begin a massive rearmament program and try to keep it under wraps in order to keep Britain and France thinking that I'm cool with the Versailles Treaty.

Impossible, some things you just can't do under wraps.

I develop U-boats first and use these to disrupt the shipping lanes between America and Western Europe. Since I don't assume responsibility for the attacks, no one knows who did it. Suspicion begins to develop between the USA and Great Britain over the shipping lanes.

Wouldn't happen - they'd look to you since you were the last one to disrupt the shipping.

At the same time, I make the Nazi-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact and keep it. Stalin is free to take Poland and all of the Baltic states, while i concentrate on western europe and the USA.

Stalin intended to attack in '42 or '43, you know. Even if you kept your end of the bargain, he wouldn't.

What should I do next?

Sue for peace. You don't have the industrial capacity to fight the US, Canada, GB, and eventually Russia.

[jaeger115]

whoa that was fast.

Guess I'm not as good at wartime strategy as i thought I was. I always knew battlefield tactics were for me.

[Wicked Pilot]

What should I do next?

Take Eastern Europe from the Soviets, but don't invade Russia. Set up a premeter along their border, and let the commies die on the offensive. Bomb the crap out of them though. Also, don't treat your invaded subjects like crap. Make them like the idea of being apart of the Third Reich. Last, when it comes to the defense of Europe from Allied invasion, let your commanders have control of the military. Appoint a supreme commander, and let him do his job without you micromanaging. Also, start constructing a large surface navy to deal with Britian and the U.S.

[Icehawk]

What I would have done if I could go back and be in command of Germany would have been to start an early development of Jet aircraft and long range heavy bomber programs. I would have also not put Goering in command of the Luftwaffe. These are things that could have easily been done and would have helped Germany a great deal.

For the long range bombers I would have ordered the immediate procurement of the Junkers 390 6 engined heavy bomber which in real history actually made it to within 12 miles of New York on a test flight before deciding to turn back. I also would have ordered intensive development and perfection of the Heinkel 177 Twin engined heavy bomber as well as the Arado 234 Blitz medium jet bomber.

For fighters I would order the early and intensive research and development of turbojet engines and aircraft so that the Messerschmit 262 fighter would have been in full development and deployment by early 1943 at the latest and would have chosen the Focke Wulf 190 and its varients as the Luftwaffe's initial frontline fighter for the start of the war to be replaced by the Me 262 jet fighter in either late 42 or early 43.

My main war efforts would have focused on securing Europe more intensely and I would NOT have ever attacked Russia. Europe first. If Stalin attacked he wouldn't get far since his army would be severly hampered by heavy defenses and would be little more than bumbling fools lacking all the desire, effort, and moral they developed AFTER Germany attacked them in real history.

For sea war I would have more focused on creating a much stronger, more plentiful U-Boat fleet as well as developing and employing the Type XX1 Uboats at an earlier date. I also would have made far more closer ties with Japan to ensure a stronger friendship to assist in persuading them to NOT to attack the US at Pearl Harbor. In addition I would have made sure I had much better supply network going between nations to share my research and materials for Jet aircraft and missile technology. In return they would supply me with designes, plans and materials to assist in developing aircraft carriers and such.

[Sea Skimmer]

No matter what Germany does it cannot win. Its enemies have far greater resources and no feasible weaponry can come close to making up the shortfall. Convert U-boat attacks are totally impossible. Germany would be caught within a week, if not less.

[Icehawk]

No matter what Germany does it cannot win. Its enemies have far greater resources and no feasible weaponry can come close to making up the shortfall.

I dissagree. Many of their shortfalls came down to poor leadership, politics and strategic decisions. Germany had quite an immense ammount of resources and the military buildup they achieved in such short time in real history proves it. With better leadership, tactics, and earlier intesive R&D into technology their inept leaders (Hitler and Goering largely) initially shunned or or ignored, would have given them a much better shot at securing Europe.

The way I see it, their enemies resources, particularily Russia and the US would not have been utilized to the extent they were in real history if 1) Japan never attacked Pearl Harbor, and 2) If Germany never attacked Russia. Those were the two of the biggest strategic mistakes both Germany and Japan made which lead to their defeat.

[Sea Skimmer]

No matter what Germany does it cannot win. Its enemies have far greater resources and no feasible weaponry can come close to making up the shortfall.

I dissagree. Many of their shortfalls came down to poor leadership, politics and strategic decisions. Germany had quite an immense ammount of resources and the military buildup they achieved in such short time in real history proves it. With better leadership, tactics, and earlier intesive R&D into technology their inept leaders (Hitler and Goering largely) initially shunned or or ignored, would have given them a much better shot at securing Europe.

There enemies resources, particularily Russia and the US would not have been utilized to the extent they were in real history if 1) Japan never attacked Pearl Harbor, and 2) If Germany never attacked Russia. Those were the two of the biggest strategic mistakes both Germany and Japan made which lead to their defeat.

Good leadership cannot change Germany's percentage of world manufacturing capacity. Russia would attack Germany in 1942 or 1943. It would field a massive army with a rebuilt officer corps. Backing this up would be a far stronger industrial base then Russia had historically due to German occupation, and in any case even the reduced Russian base produced far more then Germany.

What Germany does has little effect on the Pacific, Japan we be faced with the same choices and will take the same options.

[Falcon]

Better yet, go to war with Russia first, hit them hard with the full might of the Nazi's warmachine, complete with uninjured air force, strike hard for Moscow, you might have a winner... I seriously doubt that the Soviets could have stood up against Germany with an intact Luftwaffe, no American support and proper tactics (getting the rail\industry center at Moscow, then strangling the rest of the nation)

[Icehawk]

Better yet, go to war with Russia first, hit them hard with the full might of the Nazi's warmachine, complete with uninjured air force, strike hard for Moscow, you might have a winner... I seriously doubt that the Soviets could have stood up against Germany with an intact Luftwaffe, no American support and proper tactics (getting the rail\industry center at Moscow, then strangling the rest of the nation)

Very true. Couple that with all the stuff I mentioned earlier and there is definately almost no way they could loose. Just make sure Germany's forces are decently equipped for winter war and it should be a done deal.

[Falcon]

Better yet, go to war with Russia first, hit them hard with the full might of the Nazi's warmachine, complete with uninjured air force, strike hard for Moscow, you might have a winner... I seriously doubt that the Soviets could have stood up against Germany with an intact Luftwaffe, no American support and proper tactics (getting the rail\industry center at Moscow, then strangling the rest of the nation)

Very true. Couple that with all the stuff I mentioned earlier and there is definately almost no way they could loose. Just make sure Germany's forces are decently equipped for winter war and it should be a done deal.

Russia nearly collapsed as it was, what with the stupid Stalingrad tactics (bit slopping losing a whole army), and the Luftwaffe battered from the Battle of Britian. I figure if Germany had concentrated on them (and treated the conquered people decent) they could have absorbed much of Russias industry\technology (T-34s)\resources (oil) and then could have been a true world threat, at least a Europe killer threat.

[Howedar]

Better yet, go to war with Russia first, hit them hard with the full might of the Nazi's warmachine, complete with uninjured air force, strike hard for Moscow, you might have a winner... I seriously doubt that the Soviets could have stood up against Germany with an intact Luftwaffe, no American support and proper tactics (getting the rail\industry center at Moscow, then strangling the rest of the nation)

It would have brought war all the same. A French attack would not have been unlikely.

[Falcon]

You really think that the French would have wanted to risk going out from their fortifications and start a war with Germany? The other major European powers didn't get involved until they were forced to by attack or treaty obligations. In any event, I'd rather see a defeated Russia and protracted war with France\Britian than a defeated France and protracted foolish war with Russia, which is what happened...

[Sea Skimmer]

Better yet, go to war with Russia first, hit them hard with the full might of the Nazi's warmachine, complete with uninjured air force, strike hard for Moscow, you might have a winner... I seriously doubt that the Soviets could have stood up against Germany with an intact Luftwaffe, no American support and proper tactics (getting the rail\industry center at Moscow, then strangling the rest of the nation)

And you intend to do that from Moscow how exactly? It has no key industries, its rail links serve areas you've already captured and its hundreds of miles from anything of real value, a thousand from the vital areas.

Conquering Russia in the 1940's is not logistically feasible. And what is feasible won't give you a knock out blow.

[Subnormal]

Highly develope A-Bomb and steal Einstein before he is forced to leave the country, All would bow before the A-bomb, especially if the Germans would develope a V-1 stype A-bomb that could be launched from a U-boat, The US would immediatly surrender or DC would be glassed or surrender after DC is Glassed. Stick Van Braun(Sp?) and Einstein on the special progect and develope it early, underground. Or just make dirty bombs with radiated wastes for use on meaningless foes like Russia of whom you don't really need to conquer anyway.

[Icehawk]

And you intend to do that from Moscow how exactly? It has no key industries, its rail links serve areas you've already captured and its hundreds of miles from anything of real value, a thousand from the vital areas

Conquering Russia in the 1940's is not logistically feasible. And what is feasible won't give you a knock out blow.

Yes it IS feasible when you are not fighting a war on another front, you have an unscathed massive, mechanized army, and airforce at you're disposal, and you are facing a disorganized, poorly trained and equipped enemy. And besides, you capture Mosow, and they will surrenders the rest with its capital city and government center occupied. Thats the way war goes.

The only thing Germany has to worry about is making sure its forces are prepared for the winter fighting which is not a problem.

[Sea Skimmer]

Highly develope A-Bomb and steal Einstein before he is forced to leave the country, All would bow before the A-bomb, especially if the Germans would develope a V-1 stype A-bomb that could be launched from a U-boat, The US would immediatly surrender or DC would be glassed or surrender after DC is Glassed. Stick Van Braun(Sp?) and Einstein on the special progect and develope it early, underground. Or just make dirty bombs with radiated wastes for use on meaningless foes like Russia of whom you don't really need to conquer anyway.

A cruise missile with sufficient carrying capacity has never been built to this day and launching such a massive device from a U-boat would be impossible. As for the German A-bomb project, the chances of them seceding are rather slim, and it took far more then Einstein to get it to all work for America.

http://pub82.ezboard.com/fhistorypoliti ... D=58.topic


Good idea, attack an incredabuly brutal nation with NBC weapons that are slow acting. That will work out real well for Germany. Right until the Pe-8's show up over Berlin with mustard gas anyway.

[RedImperator]

And you intend to do that from Moscow how exactly? It has no key industries, its rail links serve areas you've already captured and its hundreds of miles from anything of real value, a thousand from the vital areas

Conquering Russia in the 1940's is not logistically feasible. And what is feasible won't give you a knock out blow.

Yes it IS feasible when you are not fighting a war on another front, you have an unscathed massive, mechanized army, and airforce at you're disposal, and you are facing a disorganized, poorly trained and equipped enemy. And besides, you capture Mosow, and they will surrenders the rest with its capital city and government center occupied. Thats the way war goes.

The only thing Germany has to worry about is making sure its forces are prepared for the winter fighting which is not a problem.

The Germans WEREN'T fighting on another front and they DID have an unscathed, massive, machanized army at their disposal in real life. Other than North Africa, the Germans weren't fighting anywhere but in Russia before 1944, and even after D-Day, 85% of the German army was on the Eastern Front. The Luftwaffe will be in better shape, granted, but the Luftwaffe won't make enough of a difference. So your plan basically puts the Germans in the same position they were in in real history, without having any veterans from the western campaign and without the resorces and labor pool of Western Europe. Worse, the French army is intact, so in all likelihood you'd probably need more and better troops to defend your western frontier than it took to occupy France and the Low Countries. All this is moot because to invade Russia, you still have to fight your way through Eastern Europe, and England and France will not just sit on their hands and let you establish an empire in the east.

As for your statements about fighting in Russia itself, apparently you're no better at understanding the lessons of history than Hitler was. Napoleon DID capture Moscow, and the Russians did NOT surrender, even with the government center and capital occupied. Stalin would do the same thing the Czar did: pull back to the Urals and wait for winter to do its job. Surviving the winter will not just be a matter of getting better winter gear (and despite how you dismiss that as a trivially easy matter, the Germans weren't much warmer and happier in the winter of 42-43 than they were in 31-42). The Russians have EXPERIENCE fighting in the winter, the soldiers are used to living and working in it in peacetime, and their equipment doesn't fail in the cold the way the Germans' did.

WWII was unwinnable for Germany. Russia was too big, too populous, and had too many resources for Germany to conquer unasisted. The western powers weren't about to help Germany, and the Japanese were bogged down in China and couldn't spare the men to invade Siberia. Even without western assistance, Russia wins this war, no matter how you fiddle-fuck with the timeline.

[RedImperator]

Highly develope A-Bomb and steal Einstein before he is forced to leave the country, All would bow before the A-bomb, especially if the Germans would develope a V-1 stype A-bomb that could be launched from a U-boat, The US would immediatly surrender or DC would be glassed or surrender after DC is Glassed. Stick Van Braun(Sp?) and Einstein on the special progect and develope it early, underground. Or just make dirty bombs with radiated wastes for use on meaningless foes like Russia of whom you don't really need to conquer anyway.

Einstein had little or nothing to do with the development of the bomb. His name was on the letter to Rosevelt because he was the most famous. And by 1937, when this scenario starts, most of the A-bomb scientists are already out of Europe. And how did you plan on making Einstein work for the Nazis anyway? Have a stormtrooper hold him at gunpoint? You think maybe he wouldn't have deliberately made mistakes to slow the project down, being as this is Albert Fucking Einstein and who the hell is going to check his work? And there's no way you're fitting a plutonium bomb on any rocket the Germans can build in the 1940s. AND there's no practical way to hide the bomb manufacturing facilities themselves when the RAF and Army Air Force are pounding the shit out of any remotely important looking facility. And you can't launch a V-1 from a submarine. And even if you could, it would get sunk before it came within range of Washington. We had enigma, remember? And even if the Germans could do all this, do you honestly believe the United States would surrender, instead of, oh, I don't know, evacuating the major cities on the east coast, develop the B-29 and its successors, develop its own A-bomb, and rain atomic death on Germany in response?

[Sea Skimmer]

And you intend to do that from Moscow how exactly? It has no key industries, its rail links serve areas you've already captured and its hundreds of miles from anything of real value, a thousand from the vital areas

Conquering Russia in the 1940's is not logistically feasible. And what is feasible won't give you a knock out blow.

Yes it IS feasible when you are not fighting a war on another front, you have an unscathed massive, mechanized army, and airforce at you're disposal, and you are facing a disorganized, poorly trained and equipped enemy. And besides, you capture Mosow, and they will surrenders the rest with its capital city and government center occupied. Thats the way war goes.

The only thing Germany has to worry about is making sure its forces are prepared for the winter fighting which is not a problem.

So replacing every truck, tank and aircraft in the German inventory is not a problem? Retooling every production line building them is easy as well? And of course the radically different designs needed will just appear as well?

Capturing Moscow gives you a city of less then one million, which has no vital industries, controls no key transport links and has some empty office buildings whose personal and equipment was moved out months ago.

The Russians have seen Moscow captured before, and they wont that war. In WW2 they lost cities bigger and more important and kept fighting. It is a hollow symbol and one with minimal real value. The Soviet leadership won't give a fuck while the Germans are busy taking care of another 100-200 thousand causalities.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Highly develope A-Bomb and steal Einstein before he is forced to leave the country, All would bow before the A-bomb, especially if the Germans would develope a V-1 stype A-bomb that could be launched from a U-boat, The US would immediatly surrender or DC would be glassed or surrender after DC is Glassed. Stick Van Braun(Sp?) and Einstein on the special progect and develope it early, underground. Or just make dirty bombs with radiated wastes for use on meaningless foes like Russia of whom you don't really need to conquer anyway.

1. How are you going to get Einstein took work for you (or stop him from sabotaging it)?
2. Germany was nowhere near close to building a A-Bomb.
3. No V-1 could carry a A-Bomb.
4. No U-Boat could launch a V-1.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Congrats IceHawk, you took the small city of Moscow. But the Soviet leadership and industry are being evacuated to the Urals, and winter's setting in. Your forces are freezing and your equipment failing. And winter experienced Siberian reserves are arriving. The French army is still intact and will probably ajust it's tank tactics.




And convincing Japan not to attack won't be easy. They didn't go "Hey, let's attack America!" Due to their invasions in the Pacific, the US was putting sactions on them that would cripple their military. And the Phillipines are a knife aimed at Japan's heart. So, they attempt to cripple the American fleet and force them to sue for peace. Everything backfires. American Carriers aren't scratched and the public is infuriated by this surprise attack. The War Machine starts pumping out ships, planes and guns, soldiers are mobolized. Battle of Midway begins, US looses a Carrier that is replaces quickly, Japan looses 4 Carriers and is crippled.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Another few important points about attacking the Soviets first:

A) Germany was economically unprepared to fight a long war in 1939. The siezure of Austrian, Czech, Polish, and French industry and capital was the only thing that kept them from collapsing in 1940. If you don't take France, you can either run Germany and feed your citizens, or you can attack Russia. Not both.

B) How are you going to get across Poland to the Soviet Union? They will most certainly not grant you access and control of their rail net. If you attack and conquer them, then France will enter the war. If you allow the USSR to take Poland first, then you have to beat through an extra few hundred kilometers just to get to their original border--still not even close to the real meat of the country.

C) The idea is stupid in general. The British and French are just going to stand by while 90% of your army fights and bleeds on the other side of Europe, in an unprovoked war of aggression?

[Raptor 597]

Also, the Germans were too stupid too realise the amount of uranium they needed. Their estimates say it would of took 147 years too get enough plutonium. When their's had a diameter of 5 feet and First atomic Bomb was 5 inches or so in diameter.

[Falcon]

Better yet, go to war with Russia first, hit them hard with the full might of the Nazi's warmachine, complete with uninjured air force, strike hard for Moscow, you might have a winner... I seriously doubt that the Soviets could have stood up against Germany with an intact Luftwaffe, no American support and proper tactics (getting the rail\industry center at Moscow, then strangling the rest of the nation)

And you intend to do that from Moscow how exactly? It has no key industries, its rail links serve areas you've already captured and its hundreds of miles from anything of real value, a thousand from the vital areas.

Conquering Russia in the 1940's is not logistically feasible. And what is feasible won't give you a knock out blow.

According to Heinz Guderian, Moscow was an importent communications hub, rail center, political center, and an important industrial area (page 159, Panzer Leader, by Heinz Guderian Chief of German Army General Staff)

At the outset of the German onslught the Russian army collapsed, if the turmoil had been fully exploited Russia wouldn't have survived until 1942. If Hitler had turned the German army first towards the East in 1939 I see little reason why the Soviets wouldn't have been completely crushed. Of course Hitler's stupidity might have made all the difference, but for this arguement arn't we assuming Hitler got a clue at some point and conducted the war properly? Unfathomable, totally preventable blunders like Stalingrad and the onset of harsh Russian winters are what defeated Germany. Take those blunders out of the equation, the commies are cooked.