Ikudograms necessary?

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Post by Ted C »

The Silence and I wrote:There is a time delay, yes. If user profiles are used (and it seems like they are) then this time is very small. To be honest, I expect you would consider it the height of stupidity if critical control consoles didn't have some kind of access code required to prevent just anyone from accessing the bridge functions. Entering such a code takes a small amount of time, and can very easily double as the code needed to load the user profile.
Need I mention that you could avoid the problem of unauthorized users messing with the bridge controls just by prohibiting unauthorized personnel on the bridge? I shouldn't be that hard to have the computer refuse to carry the turbolift to the bridge or open the bridge door for an unauthorized individual, there are apparently no such controls in place (as the arrival of everyone from cryogenically frozen 20th-century businessmen to the children of crewmembers has repeatedly shown).

Also, in "Rascals", we saw that Riker had to use a code to shut off access to command functions, something that wouldn't be necessary if the bridge consoles really refused to acknowledge unauthorized users.
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Post by General Zod »

Ted C wrote:
The Silence and I wrote:There is a time delay, yes. If user profiles are used (and it seems like they are) then this time is very small. To be honest, I expect you would consider it the height of stupidity if critical control consoles didn't have some kind of access code required to prevent just anyone from accessing the bridge functions. Entering such a code takes a small amount of time, and can very easily double as the code needed to load the user profile.
Need I mention that you could avoid the problem of unauthorized users messing with the bridge controls just by prohibiting unauthorized personnel on the bridge? I shouldn't be that hard to have the computer refuse to carry the turbolift to the bridge or open the bridge door for an unauthorized individual, there are apparently no such controls in place (as the arrival of everyone from cryogenically frozen 20th-century businessmen to the children of crewmembers has repeatedly shown).

Also, in "Rascals", we saw that Riker had to use a code to shut off access to command functions, something that wouldn't be necessary if the bridge consoles really refused to acknowledge unauthorized users.
In the chance that the ship is invaded, then having code lockouts will help prevent intruders from trying to fly off with the ship themselves. So they're not entirely useless.
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Post by Batman »

The Silence and I wrote:
Batman wrote:...over half of which didn't have Okudagrams as they didn't appear until TNG.
TNG + DS9 + VOY = 21 years of Okudagrams. Also at least four movies feature these and I believe some of the Shatner movies do as well. Compare with TOS + ENT = 7 years of pre Okudagrams.
You were saying?
21 years worth of Okudagrams plus 7 years worth of no Okudagrams comes up as...28 years. Oops. I thought we were talking about 40, which clearly referred to the time Star Trek has been on the air dumbass.
Unless you're saying there's 12 seasons worth of movies?
They can work with it. Can they do so without having to take a few moments to get their bearings or, as Zac and the Silence pointed out, reconfigure to their layout?
There is a time delay, yes. If user profiles are used (and it seems like they are) then this time is very small. To be honest, I expect you would consider it the height of stupidity if critical control consoles didn't have some kind of access code required to prevent just anyone from accessing the bridge functions. Entering such a code takes a small amount of time, and can very easily double as the code needed to load the user profile.
And that time can be the difference between destruction and survival in a combat situation. Having to logon to the station when you start your shift is one thing. Having to do so in the middle of a running battle because the guy who was SUPPOSED to be manning that console just became a fatality is
another.
I'm not saying that a new user will be utterly stymied, but they'll have to, or at least risk having to, take time they might not have to learn/rearrange the layout of the console. A problem that does not exist with the classic physical controls setup.
Or they could have user profiles loaded after the user enters his/her identification code, which should be required to allow access to the console anyway.
That would be the 'rearrange the layout of the console' part, genius.
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Post by Zac Naloen »

Destructionator XIII wrote:In TNG, we see the bridge engineering console come on automatically many times when Geordi walks up to it. The user check and profile load (if it is there) might be automatic based on proximity, and thus entirely transparent.
Presumably using the comm badge?

*edit* or an implant which would be more secure
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Post by General Zod »

Zac Naloen wrote:
Destructionator XIII wrote:In TNG, we see the bridge engineering console come on automatically many times when Geordi walks up to it. The user check and profile load (if it is there) might be automatic based on proximity, and thus entirely transparent.
Presumably using the comm badge?

*edit* or an implant which would be more secure
The comm badge would be the most obvious, as there's no other indication that they use implants to identify personnel.
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Post by Ted C »

Zac Naloen wrote:Presumably using the comm badge?

*edit* or an implant which would be more secure
A lot of things seem to be comm-badge based, but a biometric system would be better. A comm-badge signal would be easier to falsify, I would think.
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Post by Ted C »

General Zod wrote:In the chance that the ship is invaded, then having code lockouts will help prevent intruders from trying to fly off with the ship themselves. So they're not entirely useless.
If you had reliable user-identification and authorization controls on the consoles, an active command from someone to shut down command functions wouldn't be necessary. Any intruder trying to commandeer any console would find it dead.
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Post by General Zod »

Ted C wrote:
General Zod wrote:In the chance that the ship is invaded, then having code lockouts will help prevent intruders from trying to fly off with the ship themselves. So they're not entirely useless.
If you had reliable user-identification and authorization controls on the consoles, an active command from someone to shut down command functions wouldn't be necessary. Any intruder trying to commandeer any console would find it dead.
Look at it from the angle of a modern computer. Leave it on and unprotected if you walk off, and anyone can access the functions your account tis authorized to use. But if you require specific access codes and it goes down once, then you're going to be boned accessing it again or changing permissions without said access code. It may not be entirely foolproof but it would add another layer of security.
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Post by Isolder74 »

General Zod wrote:
Ted C wrote:
General Zod wrote:In the chance that the ship is invaded, then having code lockouts will help prevent intruders from trying to fly off with the ship themselves. So they're not entirely useless.
If you had reliable user-identification and authorization controls on the consoles, an active command from someone to shut down command functions wouldn't be necessary. Any intruder trying to commandeer any console would find it dead.
Look at it from the angle of a modern computer. Leave it on and unprotected if you walk off, and anyone can access the functions your account tis authorized to use. But if you require specific access codes and it goes down once, then you're going to be boned accessing it again or changing permissions without said access code. It may not be entirely foolproof but it would add another layer of security.
Add to that something even better. Give the consol a fingerprint reader built into a removable key. The key would allow quick activation of the consol for everyone that should be able to. It can even be a magnetic key the kind that can be given to every member of the crew but only will turn if you are suppose to be able to activate that particular station. If all the keys look the same it would be hard for an intruder to be able tell quickly which key they need for which consol. Hey you could even cut off access to keys as the captain sees fit. You are being boarded and need to lock out the controls just pull out the keys and toss them where ever.
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Post by The Silence and I »

Batman wrote:21 years worth of Okudagrams plus 7 years worth of no Okudagrams comes up as...28 years. Oops. I thought we were talking about 40, which clearly referred to the time Star Trek has been on the air dumbass.
So... we're counting time spent doing nothing between series as time favoring your position?

Perhaps you forgot the original point. It was this: these user control issues you reference have never been a problem ever in any series or movie (with the exception of very unusual situations, see Parallels). You responded to this point by saying over half of the 40 years of Star Trek didn't have these control panels you take offense toward, the implied words being these: 'less than half of Star Trek had these panels, so claiming a problem has never occurred ignores the fact that most of Star Trek couldn't have such a problem.' To which I pointed out that 21 years of produced Star Trek >> 7 years of produced Star Trek. I happen to be of the strange opinion that time not spent producing a series and/or movie shouldn't count here...

To sum up: You intended your earlier statement to show that over half of Star Trek did not have Okudagrams. However, no matter how long Star Trek has existed, of the screen time we have to work with most features Okudagrams. Much more than half in fact.
And that time can be the difference between destruction and survival in a combat situation. Having to logon to the station when you start your shift is one thing. Having to do so in the middle of a running battle because the guy who was SUPPOSED to be manning that console just became a fatality is another.
It would appear that comm badges do this automatically. Good enough for you?
That would be the 'rearrange the layout of the console' part, genius.
While you typed it, the feeling I got from it was that you expect such an action to take more than say, the time it takes to tap 3 to 4 keys. So I wanted to make the distinction, that being I don't think such an action (loading a user profile) would take appreciable time, while it appears you do.

Regardless, it looks like comm badges do all the work anyway.
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Post by Batman »

The Silence and I wrote:
Batman wrote:21 years worth of Okudagrams plus 7 years worth of no Okudagrams comes up as...28 years. Oops. I thought we were talking about 40, which clearly referred to the time Star Trek has been on the air dumbass.
So... we're counting time spent doing nothing between series as time favoring your position?
No you blithering idiot. I was pointing out that there have not been 40 years worth of Star Trek using Okudagrams.
Perhaps you forgot the original point. It was this: these user control issues you reference have never been a problem ever in any series or movie (with the exception of very unusual situations, see Parallels). You responded to this point by saying over half of the 40 years of Star Trek didn't have these control panels you take offense toward, the implied words being these: 'less than half of Star Trek had these panels, so claiming a problem has never occurred ignores the fact that most of Star Trek couldn't have such a problem.'
So you can read my mind now? I objected purely on the grounds that, indeed, less than half of Star Trek (temporally speaking) did have them panels. You will now show how I used this to argue what you implied I was arguing when it was little more than a nitpick.
To which I pointed out that 21 years of produced Star Trek >> 7 years of produced Star Trek. I happen to be of the strange opinion that time not spent producing a series and/or movie shouldn't count here...
Either there's 40 years worth of Star Trek or there's not. If there is, that refers to the time it's been around, in which case more than half of it DIDN'T have Okudagrams. The fact that the vast majority of aired episodes (and several of the movies) had them doesn't change that.
To sum up: You intended your earlier statement to show that over half of Star Trek did not have Okudagrams. However, no matter how long Star Trek has existed, of the screen time we have to work with most features Okudagrams. Much more than half in fact.
You know what I intended to show? I'm impressed. Or maybe you're just full of it. You knoww, I think the latter explanation is closer to the truth. What I SAID, and that was all I INTENDED to say, was that there have NOT been 40 years worth of Trek with Okudagrams not running into the problems I mentioned, as they simply haven't been around that long. Everything else comes from your fevered imagination.
And that time can be the difference between destruction and survival in a combat situation. Having to logon to the station when you start your shift is one thing. Having to do so in the middle of a running battle because the guy who was SUPPOSED to be manning that console just became a fatality is another.
It would appear that comm badges do this automatically. Good enough for you?
As there is exactly zero evidence for that being the case, no.
That would be the 'rearrange the layout of the console' part, genius.
While you typed it, the feeling I got from it was that you expect such an action to take more than say, the time it takes to tap 3 to 4 keys. So I wanted to make the distinction, that being I don't think such an action (loading a user profile) would take appreciable time, while it appears you do.
In a combat situation, I consider a few seconds appreciable time, yes.
Regardless, it looks like comm badges do all the work anyway.
As evidenced by nothing whatsoever.
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Post by Alyeska »

Knock it off you two.
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Post by Drooling Iguana »

Uraniun235 wrote:I bet the Okudagrams were really cheap to produce.
Suppose your display/control screen goes out on you?
The Shuttle has gone to a 'glass cockpit' in recent years... granted, it's not as total as an entirely touchpanel control system, but doesn't that still make them rather dependent on the displays not failing?
The Shuttle very rarely has to go into combat with space aliens.
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Post by phred »

in the argument of flat panels vs buttons, I say buttons are better. I play many games on my PC, and can usually accomplish most tasks without necessarily looking at the keyboard, because i can feel where my fingers are on it. I like my old phone with raised buttons on it over the razor phone that I have now for the exact same reason. You can orient your hands/fingers without distraction from other more important things.
As for your argument about customizable touchscreens, regardless of how it works, it may only take a mere couple miliseconds to reload, but in an emergency or high speed firefight (both of which seem to happen fairly frequently to Federation starships) those couple miliseconds could mean the difference between a close call and several hundred casualties
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Post by Patrick Degan »

phred wrote:iAs for your argument about customizable touchscreens, regardless of how it works, it may only take a mere couple miliseconds to reload, but in an emergency or high speed firefight (both of which seem to happen fairly frequently to Federation starships) those couple miliseconds could mean the difference between a close call and several hundred casualties
Plus, it adds a needless layer of complexity to the ship's control systems.
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Post by Isolder74 »

Drooling Iguana wrote:
Uraniun235 wrote:I bet the Okudagrams were really cheap to produce.
Suppose your display/control screen goes out on you?
The Shuttle has gone to a 'glass cockpit' in recent years... granted, it's not as total as an entirely touchpanel control system, but doesn't that still make them rather dependent on the displays not failing?
The Shuttle very rarely has to go into combat with space aliens.
The latest fighters have a 'glass cockpit' too, but it is mainly in place of many of what used to be mechanical dials. The controls still use physical buttons because those will still function if the display fails. True the Pilot will not know how many how many missiles he has left but will be able to fire them if he does. Its the same reason that the airforce uses a HUD diplay to give the pilot info on his canopy so that in a firefight he can just glance to get all the flight info he needs during a dogfight.
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Post by Uraniun235 »

Drooling Iguana wrote:The Shuttle very rarely has to go into combat with space aliens.
Yeah, but if those displays go out at a critical moment, they're pretty much fucked too.
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Post by Lord Edam »

Isolder74 wrote: The latest fighters have a 'glass cockpit' too, but it is mainly in place of many of what used to be mechanical dials. The controls still use physical buttons because those will still function if the display fails.
I was watching "megastructures" or a similar programme on Discovery earlier and they showed the USS Virginia sub, an almost completely touchscreen environment. So I went digging and found the web page of the blokey that allegedly designed the diesel generator control panel(one Gary Wachs). The only reason he didn't use touchscreen controls for that was because the engineers would have oily fingers, making the screen difficult to read afterwards.

Obviously nowhere near the "re-arrange the layout to suit the user" idiocy of okudagrams, but it looks like military HCI designers agree the benefits of touchscreen outweigh the negatives.
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Post by montypython »

According to the V'ger episode "Year of Hell", okudagrams are configurable for braille, so it would be possible for some tactile feedback in the system.
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montypython wrote:According to the V'ger episode "Year of Hell", okudagrams are configurable for braille, so it would be possible for some tactile feedback in the system.
How is that suppose to work? Braille is a system of raised dots. That would require a physical button with the bumps engraved on it. How can the screen raise these dots on demand?
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Post by Drooling Iguana »

Isolder74 wrote:
montypython wrote:According to the V'ger episode "Year of Hell", okudagrams are configurable for braille, so it would be possible for some tactile feedback in the system.
How is that suppose to work? Braille is a system of raised dots. That would require a physical button with the bumps engraved on it. How can the screen raise these dots on demand?
Transporter/replicator/holodeck technology?
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Drooling Iguana wrote:
Isolder74 wrote:
montypython wrote:According to the V'ger episode "Year of Hell", okudagrams are configurable for braille, so it would be possible for some tactile feedback in the system.
How is that suppose to work? Braille is a system of raised dots. That would require a physical button with the bumps engraved on it. How can the screen raise these dots on demand?
Transporter/replicator/holodeck technology?
Is it jus me or is that stuff the answer for everything? As far as i can see that just adds another layer of technology that can fail.
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Post by Drooling Iguana »

No, subspace is the answer to everything, though I'd imagine that transporter/replicator/holodeck technology probably involves subspace in some way.
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Isolder74 wrote:
montypython wrote:According to the V'ger episode "Year of Hell", okudagrams are configurable for braille, so it would be possible for some tactile feedback in the system.
How is that suppose to work? Braille is a system of raised dots. That would require a physical button with the bumps engraved on it. How can the screen raise these dots on demand?
It wasn't explicitly called Braille. After Tuvok loses his eyes, he's next seen at his station saying this -
TUVOK: Computer, activate tactile interface.
CHAKOTAY: Weapons status?
TUVOK: Phasers are still online. Torpedo launchers are still inoperative.
So however it might work - raised bumps, electrical shocks, morphing textures, whatever - it is possible to use a console blind and it does have a means of providing tactile feedback. Not only that, it also provides a means of relaying system status info through touch...somehow.
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Post by Stark »

For all we know, Tuvok has simply memorised the locations of context areas. There's no reason to assume he has anywhere near regular effciency without sight.
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