Most oppressive non-Abrahamic religions/philosophies?
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Most oppressive non-Abrahamic religions/philosophies?
After the Abrahamic religions, which belief systems would you consider to make, or at least have the potential to make, oppressive governments and societies?
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Hinduism has been really harsh on people for a long time, but in a hundred years or so, communism really took its toll on everyone, didn't it? Then there's national socialism, of course. Oh, and let's not forget the Aztecs and their mountains of skulls.
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I'd have to chime in on Hinduism; it is a horribly regressive system that thrives on ignorance. As one Indian emigrant once said to me, "Eighty percent of the people in India are very religious. The other twenty percent are educated."
As for some of the other contestants, I'd dismiss all of the dead and dying ones and restrict myself to living and/or growing belief systems, so I'd have to nominate Scientology. It may be relatively weak and harmless now, but notice the parallels to Abrahamic religions: aggressively expansionist, openly hostile toward critics and apostates, based upon an anointed "prophet" who is now dead but whose words are immortalized (and unchangeable) for all time in a book, etc.
As for some of the other contestants, I'd dismiss all of the dead and dying ones and restrict myself to living and/or growing belief systems, so I'd have to nominate Scientology. It may be relatively weak and harmless now, but notice the parallels to Abrahamic religions: aggressively expansionist, openly hostile toward critics and apostates, based upon an anointed "prophet" who is now dead but whose words are immortalized (and unchangeable) for all time in a book, etc.
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Isn't Confucianism actually quite oppressive? While it certainly led to the creation of one of the most advanced states of antiquity, and wasn't evangelistic, it did allow for a lot of excuse of exerting power. And though it wasn't exactly a belief system that excluded others from existing, the Confucians in China certainly did what they could to prevent Buddhism from taking hold (at first), including acts of persecution.
Of course, Legalism was worse, but it didn't last as long.
Of course, Legalism was worse, but it didn't last as long.
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While Bhuddism itself is pretty benign, isn;t the whole Free Tibet movement spearheaded by the Dhali Llama an attempt to put Tibet back under theocratic feudal rule?
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Confucianism certainly kept Chinese society from advancing one millimetre from the time it was adopted up to the Maoist victory in 1949, and remains very much the blueprint for the present system despite it's official Communist ideology.Battlehymn Republic wrote:Isn't Confucianism actually quite oppressive? While it certainly led to the creation of one of the most advanced states of antiquity, and wasn't evangelistic, it did allow for a lot of excuse of exerting power. And though it wasn't exactly a belief system that excluded others from existing, the Confucians in China certainly did what they could to prevent Buddhism from taking hold (at first), including acts of persecution.
Of course, Legalism was worse, but it didn't last as long.
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As far as non-Abrahamic semi-religious belief systems go, I've always found Confucianism to be the most no-nonsense. For one thing, it's not even so much as a philosophy as it is a code of ethics and a guide for society. Compared to other Eastern religions, it's much less oriented towards things like meditation or pacifism or the greatest value is unbridled compassion and more about the way things should be in a country.
That doesn't mean it's oppressive, though it certainly seems a lot less kind and gentle than your idea of Buddhism, Taoism, Jainism, etc.
That doesn't mean it's oppressive, though it certainly seems a lot less kind and gentle than your idea of Buddhism, Taoism, Jainism, etc.
Mind elaborating? Confucianism as a philosophy was extremely conservative, especially post Han but to aruge that it prevented Chinese society from advancing at all seems a bit exaggerated.Patrick Degan wrote:Confucianism certainly kept Chinese society from advancing one millimetre from the time it was adopted up to the Maoist victory in 1949, and remains very much the blueprint for the present system despite it's official Communist ideology.Battlehymn Republic wrote:Isn't Confucianism actually quite oppressive? While it certainly led to the creation of one of the most advanced states of antiquity, and wasn't evangelistic, it did allow for a lot of excuse of exerting power. And though it wasn't exactly a belief system that excluded others from existing, the Confucians in China certainly did what they could to prevent Buddhism from taking hold (at first), including acts of persecution.
Of course, Legalism was worse, but it didn't last as long.
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One needs only look at how backward China became relative to the rest of the developing world, how it became the colonial plaything of Europe, and how China remained a backward, primitive country well into the 20th century to see how the Confucian ideology prevented a nation of several hundred million people and a 5000 year history from charting its own path to progress. And we're talking about the people who were the first to invent gunpowder and printing with moveable type in a period when Europeans were still shitting in their own huts.PainRack wrote:Mind elaborating? Confucianism as a philosophy was extremely conservative, especially post Han but to aruge that it prevented Chinese society from advancing at all seems a bit exaggerated.Patrick Degan wrote:Confucianism certainly kept Chinese society from advancing one millimetre from the time it was adopted up to the Maoist victory in 1949, and remains very much the blueprint for the present system despite it's official Communist ideology.Battlehymn Republic wrote:Isn't Confucianism actually quite oppressive? While it certainly led to the creation of one of the most advanced states of antiquity, and wasn't evangelistic, it did allow for a lot of excuse of exerting power. And though it wasn't exactly a belief system that excluded others from existing, the Confucians in China certainly did what they could to prevent Buddhism from taking hold (at first), including acts of persecution.
Of course, Legalism was worse, but it didn't last as long.
When ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets.
—Abraham Lincoln
People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House
Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
—Abraham Lincoln
People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House
Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
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He's actually understating, there was actually a law for many years that nothing could change culturally. Writers could only copy past works, new works were destroyed and their authors executed. Painters and architechs had to use approved artistic styles or face the same. Every aspect of culture from caligraphy to weapons of war were catalogued and then were considered immutable.PainRack wrote:Mind elaborating? Confucianism as a philosophy was extremely conservative, especially post Han but to aruge that it prevented Chinese society from advancing at all seems a bit exaggerated.
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Feudal Shintoism (horrific caste system and ritualistic killings over bizarre connotations of honour {for Gods' sake, think of the Eta!}, Aztec religion (More killings per minute than Hitler), Druidism (They actually did sacrifice virgins at certain holidays and festivals), head-hunting (the name is all you need)... There are plenty.
Evidence for the new works being destroyed and authors executed?Setesh wrote: He's actually understating, there was actually a law for many years that nothing could change culturally. Writers could only copy past works, new works were destroyed and their authors executed. Painters and architechs had to use approved artistic styles or face the same. Every aspect of culture from caligraphy to weapons of war were catalogued and then were considered immutable.
Similarly, if architects could only use "approved" styles, pray tell why is it that each dynasty not only differed from each other in artistic style, but an evolution of such was similarly seen in most dynasties?
Furthermore, consider War. Confucianism has been irrevocably linked with the conservative movement to bring back the good old days and this has been linked to warfare, primarily in the ideal of the peasant soldier, officer gentlemen as well as the 6 arts which included archery,swordsmanship and horse-back riding. This has been stated to be the "ideal" of a chinese military, YET, we have seen changes and evolution in military technology, weapons and tactics. The idea of the peasant soldier, while cherished was abandoned utterly in the Song Dynasty. While the New Armies of the Yuan Dynasty saw a revival of Confucianist "ideals" in the form of gentlemen recruitment for officers, they still retained the "modern" form of organisation in terms of cavalry as well as a requirement of victory over "nobility" in war.
While Confucianism is conservative, to argue that it forced Chinese culture to remain stagnant is not supported by the facts.
And what makes you think this is a result of Confucianism? Furthermore, the backwardness result primarily from the Industrial Revolution. We can argue why the agricultural and climate change of that era resulted in Britain industrializing whereas China focused on human labour, but other than the attitude towards merchants which had been discarded by that era, its hard to pinpoint where Confucianism and Taoism was the key cause.One needs only look at how backward China became relative to the rest of the developing world, how it became the colonial plaything of Europe, and how China remained a backward, primitive country well into the 20th century to see how the Confucian ideology prevented a nation of several hundred million people and a 5000 year history from charting its own path to progress. And we're talking about the people who were the first to invent gunpowder and printing with moveable type in a period when Europeans were still shitting in their own huts.
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Where says this?Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:Druidism (They actually did sacrifice virgins at certain holidays and festivals)
The only direct records I recall of this are Ceasar's own... a bit propaganda laden, and rumors by certain Christian missionaries regarding nine sacrifices hung from a tree, one of which was said to be human (no mention of virginity or not).
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No. The Dalai Lama seeks to fulfil a spiritual goal by freeing Tibet. As my small amount of knowledge on the predicament tells me, China refuses to let the Dalai Lama return to Tibet, thinking that he will make the people of Tibet rise up and rebel. In actual fact, the Dalai Lama seeks to return to Tibet because if his life ends outside of Tibet, he will not reincarnate in Tibet and there would be no successor for his people.Flagg wrote:While Bhuddism itself is pretty benign, isn;t the whole Free Tibet movement spearheaded by the Dhali Llama an attempt to put Tibet back under theocratic feudal rule?
The people of Tibet actually follow his every word, and he has come to realize that for Tibetans to advance and move on in life, they must follow themselves and their beliefs rather than the word of the Dalai Lama. It's just that some department in the Chinese government is paranoid about the Dalai Lama's purposes for wanting to return to Tibet so badly, which prevents him from returning to fulfil a spiritual necessity.
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PainRack wrote:And what makes you think this is a result of Confucianism?One needs only look at how backward China became relative to the rest of the developing world, how it became the colonial plaything of Europe, and how China remained a backward, primitive country well into the 20th century to see how the Confucian ideology prevented a nation of several hundred million people and a 5000 year history from charting its own path to progress. And we're talking about the people who were the first to invent gunpowder and printing with moveable type in a period when Europeans were still shitting in their own huts.
It's enshrinement of the primacy of authority, set formulas governing every aspect of life, and general rigidity are three forces stifling free inquiry and scientific development.
The example of Japan destroys that argument. Another very conservative, hidebound society which attempted to seal itself into its own little bubble-world and create a totally static social order for 250 years just like China. But unlike the Chinese, the Japanese threw off their governing ideology in the wake of the War of the Restoration, adopted Emperor Meiji's reforms, and embraced industrialism, international trade and capitalism. Within twenty years, Japan began to take its place as a thoroughly modern industrial and rising military power. The Chinese never even attempted that initial step until the revolution which finally brought down a hopelessly corrupt and fossilised monarchy, and they paid the price of another 50 years of civil war and foreign invasion as a result.Furthermore, the backwardness result primarily from the Industrial Revolution. We can argue why the agricultural and climate change of that era resulted in Britain industrializing whereas China focused on human labour, but other than the attitude towards merchants which had been discarded by that era, its hard to pinpoint where Confucianism and Taoism was the key cause.
When ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets.
—Abraham Lincoln
People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House
Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
—Abraham Lincoln
People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House
Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Confucianism date back to 500 BC, whereas Chinese technological advancement actually outpaced that of the West until around the 17th century or so? I was under the impression that it was simply a set of very conservative Emperors who caused the stagnation, not Confucianism. In fact, the early Europeans who encountered the Chinese were shocked at their huge, highly advanced ships and other technologies. But when China's version of George W. Bush got into power, he pulled back his explorer ships and began persecuting intellectuals.Patrick Degan wrote:PainRack wrote:And what makes you think this is a result of Confucianism?One needs only look at how backward China became relative to the rest of the developing world, how it became the colonial plaything of Europe, and how China remained a backward, primitive country well into the 20th century to see how the Confucian ideology prevented a nation of several hundred million people and a 5000 year history from charting its own path to progress. And we're talking about the people who were the first to invent gunpowder and printing with moveable type in a period when Europeans were still shitting in their own huts.
It's enshrinement of the primacy of authority, set formulas governing every aspect of life, and general rigidity are three forces stifling free inquiry and scientific development.
The example of Japan destroys that argument. Another very conservative, hidebound society which attempted to seal itself into its own little bubble-world and create a totally static social order for 250 years just like China. But unlike the Chinese, the Japanese threw off their governing ideology in the wake of the War of the Restoration, adopted Emperor Meiji's reforms, and embraced industrialism, international trade and capitalism. Within twenty years, Japan began to take its place as a thoroughly modern industrial and rising military power. The Chinese never even attempted that initial step until the revolution which finally brought down a hopelessly corrupt and fossilised monarchy, and they paid the price of another 50 years of civil war and foreign invasion as a result.Furthermore, the backwardness result primarily from the Industrial Revolution. We can argue why the agricultural and climate change of that era resulted in Britain industrializing whereas China focused on human labour, but other than the attitude towards merchants which had been discarded by that era, its hard to pinpoint where Confucianism and Taoism was the key cause.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
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For starters, Qing attempts at reform were sabotaged by conservatives like the Empress Dowager Cixi who took the money for a new navy and used it to build a new palace.
Incidentally, I think the executing of scholars and artists would have to do with the Legalists, whose philosophies inspired Qin Shi Huangdi.
Incidentally, I think the executing of scholars and artists would have to do with the Legalists, whose philosophies inspired Qin Shi Huangdi.
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The isolationism driven at the end of the Ming Dynasty (early 17th century) was driven by Confucian extremists. Although there are a lot of other examples of Chinese people in power passing up opportunities, this was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back - China is, effectively, still catching up to Europe from this single bout of idiocy.Darth Wong wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Confucianism date back to 500 BC, whereas Chinese technological advancement actually outpaced that of the West until around the 17th century or so? I was under the impression that it was simply a set of very conservative Emperors who caused the stagnation, not Confucianism. In fact, the early Europeans who encountered the Chinese were shocked at their huge, highly advanced ships and other technologies. But when China's version of George W. Bush got into power, he pulled back his explorer ships and began persecuting intellectuals.
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This discussion of the Aztecs and other sacrifice-oriented religions has me on a tangent. Why the fuck do such cultural practices survive? Shouldn't they die out in competition to cultures that don't practice human sacrifice?What possible advantage could there be?
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Increased aggressiveness, the inspiration of fear in others ? Didn't they go out of their way to sacrifice non-Aztecs ? I recall reading that they preferred clubs as weapons because that got them more live prisoners for sacrifice.wolveraptor wrote:Why the fuck do such cultural practices survive? Shouldn't they die out in competition to cultures that don't practice human sacrifice?What possible advantage could there be?
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imo the confucian outlook can be understood with china being quite like a world unto itself. While expansionist at times, and internationally reknown, the nation did not have a serious challenge or alternative to its civilization. with its vast expanse and level of advance, such an outlook could be well justified, however fatal in future times
plenty of peoples have human sacrifice in their remote past btw
plenty of peoples have human sacrifice in their remote past btw