Idiocracy - would have humanity gone extinct eventually?

[wautd]

In this movie, because of the dumb people kept outbreeding the smart ones the human population has become absolutely retarted (IQ around 50) in the year 2500. They can't solve basic problems, everything is dumbed down and automated but machinery and equipment is starting to fall apart and there's nobody around to fix it. The environment appears to be completely devastated (pollution, massive desertification,...) and humanity is on the brink of famine.
Could evolution eventually favour the smart again or is the damage done already too high and will humanity die out?

(we only see the situation in the States but assume it's globally)

[wolveraptor]

I would think the damage would be far too fatal if humanity had been dumbed down so much. However, I find it unlikely that anyone with an IQ as low as 50 would be naturally selected in a competetive breeding environment. Such people wouldn't be able to take care of themselves, much less attract a mate. What I'm saying is, this situation is really implausible.

[the wicked prince]

Let me be the first to say that I disagree with monogamy.

[Surlethe]

It's possible, I think, for humans to survive and yet not be selected back to intelligence, but rather be selected for other survival abilities. For example, ons who live in a forested environment might be selected for tree-climbing, smaller size, and eventually evolve into "lesser" primates. Of course, I've no idea how plausible that is; my grasp of evolution is conceptual at best.

I also feel the need to point out that an average IQ of 50 is self-contradictory.

Let me be the first to say that I disagree with monogamy.

What are you talking about?

[Magus]

In this movie, because of the dumb people kept outbreeding the smart ones the human population has become absolutely retarted (IQ around 50) in the year 2500. They can't solve basic problems, everything is dumbed down and automated but machinery and equipment is starting to fall apart and there's nobody around to fix it. The environment appears to be completely devastated (pollution, massive desertification,...) and humanity is on the brink of famine.
Could evolution eventually favour the smart again or is the damage done already too high and will humanity die out?

(we only see the situation in the States but assume it's globally)

The greatest implausibility I see here is that the smart people have been essentially "breeded out," which would only occur if the "smarts" and the "stupids" were in direct competition. If the "stupids" have 5 kids per couple per generation and the "smarts" have only 3 kids per couple per generation, both populations would continue to grow. Even if high populations finally force the two into competition, I don't see why the "smarts" would lose. Assuming the "smarts" are the only ones who know how to build and repair all the automated stuff, the "stupids" are essentially at their mercy, since, according to the movie, the "stupids" are incapable of surviving with their simplification and automation.

I think it's much more likely that the "smarts" would actually hold a position of honor and power, since their intelligence would be in incredibly high demand.

[Brain_Caster]

You forget that the two groups aren't seperated, there would be no "smarts" or "stupids", just one group that gradually becomes dumber.

[Lord of the Abyss]

Even if high populations finally force the two into competition, I don't see why the "smarts" would lose. Assuming the "smarts" are the only ones who know how to build and repair all the automated stuff, the "stupids" are essentially at their mercy, since, according to the movie, the "stupids" are incapable of surviving with their simplification and automation.

I think it's much more likely that the "smarts" would actually hold a position of honor and power, since their intelligence would be in incredibly high demand.

It sounds like it was inspired by the old story The Marching Morons, where the "smarts" didn't lose; eventually they just genocided the "stupids". In this movie, however, there don't appear to be any "smarts".

I also don't like the implicit class based contempt and paranoia in the story or the movie; it's based on the idea that the elite are innately smarter than the faster breeding commoners. Not luckier, not better educated or richer; smarter. The stupid don't have more children than the smart; the poor have more than the rich, and poor = stupid is the hidden message behind this recurring paranoia of a stupid future.

[Dominus Atheos]

Here's the opening of the movie. It explains just how the world got to be the way it did. It's incredibly exaggerated, but it seems plausible. If you take a look at population statistics, the lower class, less educated demographic is out-breeding the more educated upper class demographic.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Here's the opening of the movie. It explains just how the world got to be the way it did. It's incredibly exaggerated, but it seems plausible. If you take a look at population statistics, the lower class, less educated demographic is out-breeding the more educated upper class demographic.

That was hilarious...

[ArmorPierce]

Problem here is that it assumes that the upper class is genetically more intelligent and deserving of their class due to their genetics. The entire idea is preposterous and if anything the opposite is true. Because the majority of the upper-class gains their status through generational wealth and are born into money, thus they are under less stress to survive and procreate so more of them with genetic deficiencies survive.

[ArmorPierce]

Oh and I find this movie to be pretty offensive (not to mention pretty stupid) and harkens back to the days of 19th century attempts at justifying the upper-class lording their wealth over the heads of the masses.

[brianeyci]

I haven't seen this movie, but for Lord of the Abyss and your interpretation of The Marching Morons, you need to read that story again. The story was not about a class war at all. The "elite" as you call them were not rich, but were doing every menial task from traffic control to fixing cars. The rich were the stupid people. The President of the United States was stupid. Congress was stupid. The stupid people were guaranteed a life of luxury and absolute ease, while the intelligent had to work their fucking asses off. The intelligent were only "elite" in the sense that they were intelligent enough to manipulate the dumb, but all their free time was spent taking care of the idiots so they had no time for themselves. The theme of that story was stupid people outbreeding the intelligent people, not anything to do with the poor outbreeding the rich. And that no matter how intelligent you think you are, you can be outwitted in the end if you assume "dumb" people can be taken advantage of (remember the main character assumed the intelligent people were stupid and in the end he was blasted off into space.) In other words your interpretation is completely back-ass-wards.

As for stupid => poor, that is not such a bad message in general. If you're stupid, you're more likely to be poor, so the path to success is guarantee you're not stupid. I see nothing offensive about that at all. I just saw the trailer, and there's nothing wrong with that. If you're stupid, you're more likely to be poor. I guess it's whether you view it as stupid => poor or poor => stupid.

Face it, if you're stupid you're more likey to be poor and if that hurts well too bad, get more intelligent. Don't be trailer trash, don't have children unless you're prepared to take care of them, and don't rely on medical treatment to bail you out if you're a fatass. Also don't go around fucking everything in sight if you're not prepared to take the risk of being a father. I see many potential excellent messages in that movie, and centering all on the class issue is fucking retarded given the main message of the movie is supposed to be stupidity and not poor people. This is not a fucking Borat telling a poor old guy to hold up a penis for an arm. Hell the main character is a grunt in the military, doesn't get any more lower middle class than that. But I haven't seen the movie, but I think some people are flipping out and singling out one thing over others.

[brianeyci]

EDIT: And the trailer is fucking funny as hell.

I remember my gym teacher in middle school asking a question about where to draw the line. "Do you need a hundred thousand in the bank to have a kid now?"

I blurted out, "Yes."

The teacher looked at me as if I'd gone crazy. I'm ten years older now and it still doesn't make sense to me why you'd have children unless you have a comfortable middle-class lifestyle. So to the people saying poor => stupid is a bad message, you can fuck off thank you. Especially for dissing The Marching Morons. Offensive my ass.

[ArmorPierce]

The message behind the movie of Idiocracy is that poor people being stupid is genetic. They put as evidence some trailer trash family versus a seemingly upper-class couple. The end result is a population with a IQ of 50 with today's standards I'm assuming.

Being intelligent does no guarantee success. How many scientists are out their working their ass off for mediocre pay? Then we get people like George W Bush, was able to get the best education, his life handed to him, made it out of university as a C average, and is now President of the United States.

[brianeyci]

You're looking at this the wrong way. You're taking outliers rather than the mean. Most people think that being "down to earth" and drinking a six-pack a day is something to be proud of. Being a hard working blue collar guy is something to be proud of. Meanwhile, scientists, professors and so on are degraded and shit upon by the majority of the stupid people. People are proud to be stupid, vivftp style. University graduates on average get twice the salary over non-university graduates, so in general intelligence does mean better pay. If you're intelligent, in general you will be richer.

As for genetics, I'd have to see the movie. But from the trailer it doesn't look offensive at all. I'm betting you you're taking ten minutes worth of technobabble from a scientist explaining to the private hero what went wrong over the rest of the movie which I assume is the private trying to do his hero thing. And I hate to break it to you, but intelligence is based on genetics partially. Certain people will never do well in math, and certain others will.

We need more movies like this. Fuck being proud of being stupid, stupid people should be fucking ashamed of themselves.

[CarsonPalmer]

You know what, I don't think being naturally smart is anything to be proud of. I don't think being naturally poor at math, or sciences, or whatever is anything to be ashamed of. Being hard-working is something to be proud of.

If you're naturally smart, you better be doing something with it, for God's sake. I know people, naturally smart, cruising through High School, in all honors classes, with 95's. They've got nothing to be fucking proud of. Nothing at all. All they did was win the fucking birth lottery.

I'm friends with a kid in my chemistry class, great fucking athlete by sheer talent. Good for him. He's not proud of it. He won the lottery. He works his ass off in Chem II Honors, fights his way to an 85. He's proud of that. He earned that.

I've got a 98 in that class. I'm not proud of it. All I did was win the fucking lottery. At sports, I struggle at everything I do. I had to work to start running a 7 minute mile. I'm proud of that, though. I earned it.

What the hell is being wrong with the guy who works an eight hour day in a factory, supports his family, pushes his kids to do well? What the hell is wrong with not being naturally smart but doing your goddamn best in life? We're the lucky ones. We won the fucking lottery. If you don't do something with it, if you're naturally smart and you make nothing of it, then you're worse than the blue-collar factory worker. He made something of nothing. You made nothing out of fucking something.

That's just my rant. That's the insanity of saying that someone should be ashamed of not being smart.

[Surlethe]

There's nothing wrong in not being smart. There's plenty wrong in not being smart and being too arrogant to admit that there are people out there who know better than you. It's just like a smart person who's not physically inclined being arrogant enough to boast he can run a five-minute mile without investing the time and work in training. If we don't tolerate him, why should we tolerate (to borrow everyone's favorite punching bag, creationism) a hard-working blue-collar worker declaring that evolution's wrong and he 'just doesn't believe in it'?

[Solauren]

Carson, you appear to have a bit of a persecution complex.

Sure, high academics through trying, be proud of. High Academics cause it's easy (or high sports achievements for that matter when easy), don't be down on.

Be down on them not doing something with that natural talent. For example, you're friend that's great at sports and is an excellent chemist, should go into college sports on a schoolarship, and work his ass off at chemisty. Use his birth-lottery to get into something useful, and therefore do something useful.


As to the OP, it's not likely to happen. Stupid people will eventually die off when the medical stuff they need is too expensive for them to afford.

[brianeyci]

CarsonPalmer, looking at it the wrong way. You're taking outliers again. Most people who get 95's work their ass off. If you're taking mathematics, likely you had to work your ass off. You hear about people who make school look easy much more than the 99% of other people who get A's and never talk. Do you look at asians who take math and automatically assume they won the birth lottery? I don't. I see them as having different cultural values, and instead of blowing time on stupid shit, in general they spend their time more wisely. Your way of viewing things, all about genetics in general and the exception hard worker -you- for people who have intelligence is not reality. It's the whole other way around. Graduating high school is pathetically easy for most hard workers, and if you had a lot of trouble well tough shit, I'm sorry for your bad genetics if that's what it really was, but trailer trash have the natural intelligence to graduate high school. They're just too fucking lazy to do it. The movie takes it to the extreme to make a point, and I don't see anything wrong with that.

Not to mention the factory worker who works eight hours a day and pushes his kids to do well should be ashamed about his intelligence. You also assume this factory worker got to where he wanted to be entirely not because of his own fault, or mostly because of genetics, but in general it's the whole other way around.

That's the insanity of saying that someone should be ashamed of not being smart.

You only think it's insanity because you've been brought up to believe in the importance of down to earthness and hard work when objectively that's less important than intelligence. Tell me what would happen if people thought the other way around? Be ashamed that you're stupid. Nothing. The factory worker working to support his kids would still work his ass off out of shame. Except stupid people would defer to intelligent people when they knew they were dealing with something over their heads with oh, I don't know, say evolution, science in the classroom, public policy, etc.

[CarsonPalmer]

Oh, I don't have a persecution complex. I'm just irritated by the people in my high school who constantly talk about "He's an idiot. He's not in honors." or people who just coast along. Just the idea of looking down on the blue-collar worker who wants to make life better for his kids because he's not a scientist, or college educated irritates me...

And I feel like an idiot because I misread brian's post, and he wasn't saying what I thought he was. This is the part where I slowly back out of the thread, reach the door, and break into a mad dash for the safety of my own home.

[Surlethe]

Like I said, simply lacking intelligence is not something to be ashamed of; neither is it something to be proud of. And that is the problem in the US today: being down-to-earth and folksy is something that people value over intelligence.

And, as a rule, coasting along in high school is much easier than coasting in university, which is easier than coasting in grad school, which is easier than coasting in postgrad studies. If someone can get a graduate degree, you bet he worked his ass off.

[brianeyci]

Oh, I don't have a persecution complex. I'm just irritated by the people in my high school who constantly talk about "He's an idiot. He's not in honors." or people who just coast along. Just the idea of looking down on the blue-collar worker who wants to make life better for his kids because he's not a scientist, or college educated irritates me...

I don't know the specifics of the situations you're talking about so I can't really judge them. But in general getting honors requires hard work, not good genetics, so you're looking at this the whole other way around than you should. Blue collar workers should be ashamed of their life, because they want their children to be better than them. So if they're ashamed they're more likely to go "Son, don't end up like me" instead of "Son, continue the family tradition!" They're more likely to push their children to excel in school. There's nothing wrong about being ashamed about being stupid, that should be the default logical position. Being stupid is not all about genetics as you pointed out. It's more about hard work.

And I feel like an idiot because I misread brian's post, and he wasn't saying what I thought he was. This is the part where I slowly back out of the thread, reach the door, and break into a mad dash for the safety of my own home.

Now would society really be worse off if stupid people acted like you and were ashamed when they did something stupid. Or went about their day being ashamed they were stupid, pushing themselves to be more intelligent or avoiding topics they didn't know anything about. Of course not.

[brianeyci]

Like I said, simply lacking intelligence is not something to be ashamed of; neither is it something to be proud of. And that is the problem in the US today: being down-to-earth and folksy is something that people value over intelligence.

And, as a rule, coasting along in high school is much easier than coasting in university, which is easier than coasting in grad school, which is easier than coasting in postgrad studies. If someone can get a graduate degree, you bet he worked his ass off.

Unfortunately it's difficult to take a neutral position about yourself. Suppose you lack intelligence. If you're not ashamed of it, you're likely to think it's okay, and therefore maintain the status quo. If you think something's neither worth being ashamed of nor worth being proud of, then likely you'll maintain the status quo and not push yourself. If you're a little bit ashamed of it, you're more likely to work your ass off to increase your intelligence. At least guilt's a powerful motivator. So I can't see anything wrong about being ashamed if you're stupid. Unless of course you're mentally retarded and can't increase your intelligence through study, which is a whole different matter than being stupid because you're trailer trash.

[brianeyci]

I think most of this confusion in this entire thread and offense at the movie comes from knowing what an IQ test is. Some people seem to think that an IQ test is a valid metric of "natural" or genetic intelligence.

It is not. If you get a higher score over the average on an IQ test, that just means you're better at taking IQ tests. If you're below average, you may be mentally retarded. But if you take someone who doesn't know English and is not immersed in the customs of the country and give him an IQ test designed for Americans, he may very well score so low you think him to be mentally retarded when in actuality his natural intelligence was high. I thought everybody knew that IQ tests don't measure natural intelligence any more than a flipping a coin, but I guess I was mistaken to assume this.

So when the movie says trailer trash are continually getting low IQ's, that's not necessarily a meaning that intelligence is only linked to genetics. Although the author's intent may be that, that's not what's depicted. In reality you get an above average IQ score because you're immersed in the language and are good at taking IQ tests. Besides, the author's intent may not be genetics at all, but overbreeding trailer trash. At least that's how I saw it. IQ is just a quick easy way to put it.

[Aaron]

Out of curiosity Brian do you think that tradesmen are blue-collar and if so should they be ashamed of their jobs?