Idiocracy - would have humanity gone extinct eventually?

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2007-01-01 01:50pm

Yes, they are blue collar. No they should not be ashamed of their jobs. Yes, they should be ashamed of their intelligence. And why the hell not. Being ashamed isn't a 1 or 0, on or off thing. If you're a little bit ashamed you're not more intelligent, at least you'll push yourself to do better. Or push your kids to do better. I think everyone should be ashamed they're not more intelligent, to varying degrees.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2007-01-01 02:30pm

brianeyci wrote:Yes, they are blue collar. No they should not be ashamed of their jobs. Yes, they should be ashamed of their intelligence. And why the hell not. Being ashamed isn't a 1 or 0, on or off thing. If you're a little bit ashamed you're not more intelligent, at least you'll push yourself to do better. Or push your kids to do better. I think everyone should be ashamed they're not more intelligent, to varying degrees.

I think humility is the key here not being ashamed, that leads to unhealthy self-esteem issues. If your intelligent than good for you, temper that with humility and don't let it go to your head. If your not too intelligent than don't let that get you down, there are plenty of feilds where a high IQ are not required to excel and you can still make a good buck. I know plenty of people that never went to college that make 50,000$+ a year and it just requires hard work. But you temper that with humility, just because you make 50K a year doesn't mean that you are qualified to argue with career scientists over school curriculum.

And being ashamed isn't required to push yourself, merely a desire to do better, for a tradesmen for example it's to make it to the next rung on the ladder. First from apprentice to journeyman than eventually to owning his own business. There's plenty of motivation out there for you without inoking issues that lead to unhealthy mental issues.

As for wanting my kids to do better, I simply want them to go to college or get a trade so they don't have to go through the same shit I went through in the Army. Even if they eventually join the Army afterwards, they will be in a better position than I was when I joined and as such won't be on the bottom of the rung and have to put up with the same crap a Pvt has to put up with. An officer or a tradesman in the military gets a lot more respect than joe blow Signaller.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2007-01-01 02:46pm

If someone intelligent and successful like DW can be ashamed for thinking too much about sex, then anybody can be ashamed. Guilt is not something to be avoided. I use it as a weapon, just like fear, anger, happiness or any other emotion. It only becomes a self-esteem issue when it dominates you over every other emotion. I want my guilt, I need my guilt, it's a part of me, and Syboks are not going to make me feel as if it's wrong to be ashamed I'm not more intelligent.

Post by **weemadando** » 2007-01-01 03:36pm

brianeyci wrote:Yes, they are blue collar. No they should not be ashamed of their jobs. Yes, they should be ashamed of their intelligence. And why the hell not. Being ashamed isn't a 1 or 0, on or off thing. If you're a little bit ashamed you're not more intelligent, at least you'll push yourself to do better. Or push your kids to do better. I think everyone should be ashamed they're not more intelligent, to varying degrees.

I have a lot of respect for the tradie. For example - if we whitecollars are supposedly so smart compared to them, why do we pay them $80 and hour plus materials with a minimum 2 hour fee?

Post by **weemadando** » 2007-01-01 03:41pm

On topic post:

Working at Centrelink, I see a shitload of the precise thing put forward in this trailer. Hell, I get sick of having 16 year olds calling up and saying that they want to claim for their third maternity payment. Or the forty year old who is saying that they've just had another kid, because they couldn't get any payment from Centrelink since their ex got custody of their other ones. DON'T YOU FUCKING REALISE THAT HAVING A KID COSTS EXPONENTIALLY MORE THAN THE MONEY YOU GET FROM US? FUCK!

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2007-01-01 04:59pm

Yes, they should be ashamed of their intelligence. And why the hell not.

Because you should never be ashamed of something that you cannot influence. You don't decide what brain you're born with, you can only use what you have to the best of your abilities - so the only time you should be ashamed of your 'intelligence' is when you don't fully develop your abilities and push your limits out of laziness, or when you let your arrogance stop you from seeing and accepting your limits.

I am not a particularly smart person, but I try. I study, I read up on any and all subjects that catch my interest, I accept that I have limits and try to push them. I have nothing to be ashamed about.

You, on the other hand, sit on an internet board spouting supremacist crap about how some random group of 'stupid' people need to be ashamed of themselves just for being born, even if they compensate for their lack of IQ points by pushing themselves to be the best in their field. See the problem?

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2007-01-01 05:38pm

For ando - I can respect hardworking stupid people.

For Bounty - Wrong. In general, you can influence your intelligence, by studying and working harder. Where is this false dilemma coming from, intelligence is 100% about genetics or 0% about genetics.

I am still waiting for proof for the claim that feeling shame for not being intelligent is somehow self-destructive in general. Shame is a good weapon, you can use it like fear, like resentment, like anger, like fear.

I'm tired of these strawmen. Supremacist crap? Who said that I don't respect stupid people who work hard? Saying that if people in general felt shame for being stupid is somehow being supremacist? Back to the original point, that is it would be better for stupid people like trailer trash to be ashamed. It's called context gentlemen. Did you watch the trailer? Tell me those peopl work hard and you must be out of your fucking mind.

Junghalli · Post by **Junghalli** » 2007-01-01 05:58pm

Dominus Atheos wrote:It's incredibly exaggerated, but it seems plausible. If you take a look at population statistics, the lower class, less educated demographic is out-breeding the more educated upper class demographic.

The key word there is educated. That lower class demographic tends to be more ignorant primarily because their educational opportunities are more limited. They're not some kind of genetically distinct population that's in danger of overwhelming the "smarts". An idea that has its roots in the elitist concept of the educated and intelligent as a white city on a hill, surrounded by hordes of unwashed commoners. If the population is getting dumber it's a sign that there's something seriously wrong with your education system, not evolution at work.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2007-01-01 06:00pm

For the Bounties reading this thread... What did I originally say?

We need more movies like this. Fuck being proud of being stupid, stupid people should be fucking ashamed of themselves.

Now somehow people see this as a personal attack on hardworking, stupid people. Could it be that I was insulting the stupid people in the fucking movie? Nooooooo, it has to be insulting stupid people in general. First CarsonPalmer's strawmen, which he did apologize for, but then I let others sucker me in to debating intelligence in general. Well no more. Yes, stupid people should be ashamed of themselves, and in general most people are not the hardworking kind of stupid person who pushes themselves to the limit aka Bounty aka CarsonPalmer (as they claim, who knows) so in general shame would be productive in getting people off their ass. Or do I have to post proof of the number of trailer trash in America or the number of people who believe in creationism now. People who want to turn this into a crusade between hadworking stupid people versus lazy smart people have some persecution complex going on.

And I'm still waiting for Lord of the Abyss to come in and explain how he misinterpreted March of the Morons. But he probably won't.

CarsonPalmer · Post by **CarsonPalmer** » 2007-01-01 09:04pm

I don't see why someone should be ashamed of something they can't control. If someone doesn't try and be smarter, than they should be ashamed of themselves. But a lot of intelligence is natural. Why do some people immediately grasp calculus, and others do not?

Isana Kadeb · Post by **Isana Kadeb** » 2007-01-01 09:10pm

CarsonPalmer wrote:Why do some people immediately grasp calculus, and others do not?

Some people pay attention in maths class, others do not.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2007-01-01 09:27pm

CarsonPalmer wrote:I don't see why someone should be ashamed of something they can't control.

But intelligence is something you can control, up to a certain point. I don't understand why people keep taking outliers like G.W. Bush and the hardworking idiot. Most people are idiots because they don't work hard and aren't the kind of person who tries and tries and fails.

Also, just because you can't control something, that doesn't mean you shouldn't be ashamed of it. Intelligence's value is independent of the work you put into it, so why shouldn't you be ashamed if you don't have it. If I was a werewolf and I went around killing people, I'd be ashamed of it, probably enough to kill myself to stop further deaths. I wouldn't go, okay, not my fault I'm a werewolf, haha.

If someone doesn't try and be smarter, than they should be ashamed of themselves. But a lot of intelligence is natural. Why do some people immediately grasp calculus, and others do not?

The inituition behind Calculus is easy to grasp. You have a door, and you keep approaching it, each time cutting the distance between you and the door in half. If you understand that no matter how many times you do it you'll never reach the door, you've grasped one of the fundamental concepts of Calculus--limit. You have an intuitive understanding. Now the technicalities, the episilon delta proofs, doing the limits themselves, takes practise and experience. No matter how intelligent a person is, if you ask him to prove for the first time a limit and he's never been exposed to Calculus before, he won't be able to do it. That shows that it's more than just "natural." The natural excuse in my opinion is used by people who need an excuse to not study math because they hate it. Also math is very dry, and children may be at different stages of maturity so they don't want to study it when their brains can't grasp it. You can't seriously tell me an average human being can't understand the door example I just set out.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2007-01-01 10:45pm

brianeyci wrote:Being a hard working blue collar guy is something to be proud of.

Pardon me, but just where the fuck do you get off making a comment like this? "How dare those groundlings take pride in putting food on the table by working with their hands!" Piss the fuck off.

I think everyone should be ashamed they're not more intelligent, to varying degrees.

By this logic, you should have committed seppuku years ago.

As for the OP, the whole premise is retarded on its face and stinks of 19th century junk science.

Qwerty 42 · Post by **Qwerty 42** » 2007-01-01 10:46pm

For what it's worth, I was taught a distinction between intelligence and wisdom: intelligence being the natural capacity to learn, wisdom being knowledge itself.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2007-01-01 10:54pm

RedImperator wrote:
brianeyci wrote:Being a hard working blue collar guy is something to be proud of.
Pardon me, but just where the fuck do you get off making a comment like this? "How dare those groundlings take pride in putting food on the table by working with their hands!" Piss the fuck off.

It's called context fucker. Maybe you should quote the entirety of the paragraph that sentence belongs to to get the point I was trying to make. I was not trying to insult hardworking blue collar guys, but hardworking people who think being down to earth and drinking a six pack a day is something to be proud of. You and your selective quoting can kiss my ass.

By this logic, you should have committed seppuku years ago.

Since when does being ashamed mean you have to commit suicide. I say again if intelligent people can be ashamed a little for thinking too much about sex *cough* DW *cough* most people can be ashamed for not being more intelligent. What's the worst that can happen? A lot more emos and suicides? Please. Meanwhile you get people with no shame, such as G.W. Bush (tired of people using Bush to say intelligence doesn't mean more money so I'm going to use him for my point.) Or people who are proud of being stupid.

As for the OP, the whole premise is retarded on its face and stinks of 19th century junk science.

Again you're focusing on the science more than the plot and the point. FTL is junk science too. Did you watch the trailer? Showing how fucking stupid trailer trash are? The message is clear, don't have children if you're not smart enough to take care of them.

Magus · Post by **Magus** » 2007-01-01 11:02pm

Brain_Caster wrote:You forget that the two groups aren't seperated, there would be no "smarts" or "stupids", just one group that gradually becomes dumber.

But in order for everyone to slowly evolve towards stupidity, you'd have to remove the demand for intelligent people, removing their edge in natural selection. If the less intelligent people really can't survive without the machines, then as machines break down people will be needed to fix them. Areas of the world that don't take care of their intelligent people will find themselves quickly without their precious machinery, won't survive, and will remove themselves from the gene pool. Meanwhile, areas that take good care of the people intelligent enough to fix machines will prosper, and smart people will be more likely to reproduce.

The only way I see the movie storyline happening is if all the machinery works perfectly long enough for the unneeded smart people to die out, and then they start breaking down. I believe this to be highly improbable.

Cos Dashit · Post by **Cos Dashit** » 2007-01-01 11:14pm

Is this movie supposed to become a reason for intelligent people to have unprotected sex with as many people as possible with the purpose of having kids?

I'm in.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2007-01-01 11:54pm

Frankly, I'm appaled by the resistance to my point.

brianeyci wrote:Fuck being proud of being stupid, stupid people should be fucking ashamed of themselves.

Now, somehow, people are trying to morph this into being ashamed about providing for your children, being ashamed for having a blue collar job. The context of my words are of intelligence and nothing to do with providing for your children or family. When asked I even said, they should not be ashamed about their jobs, but about their intelligence. You can be ashamed about your intelligence and proud to provide for your children at the same time. I can't believe that people think that being proud is a 1 and 0 condition, being ashamed is a 1 and 0 condition. I can't believe that people think that being proud and being ashamed are mutally exclusive emotions when you can be proud of one aspect of your life and ashamed of another. So far there's been claims that feeling shame or guilt leads to suicide, leads to poor self-esteem, ignores the hardworking idiot. All bullshit. Guilt is as useful as any other emotion. At the very least guilt is the complete opposite of pride, so in a society which stupid people were ashamed of their lack of intelligence would have very little people proud of being stupid.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2007-01-02 12:20am

Your point appears to be based on a false dilemma between pride and shame. Why should someone who isn't proud of something be ashamed of it? Should I be ashamed of growing up in an upper-class family simply because I'm not proud of it?

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2007-01-02 12:55am

Surlethe wrote:Your point appears to be based on a false dilemma between pride and shame. Why should someone who isn't proud of something be ashamed of it? Should I be ashamed of growing up in an upper-class family simply because I'm not proud of it?

I remember a similar situation to this months ago, where you asked DW about why a person should feel guilty for being born in a first world country, guilt being the primary motivator of charitable donations. The crux is although it isn't your fault you're born in a first world nation, it's still your responsibility to take care of your fellow man and therefore most adults who donate feel guilt that they have more than someone in Africa. My point is the same here. A person has a responsibility to be as intelligent as possible. Therefore, if you're not intelligent, you feel shame. Simple as that. Now I don't understand people bringing up the hardworking idiot, an errant data point, to prove a generality. If you are a hardworking idiot, and you have tried and failed to be more intelligent, then good for you. But the idea "if you try your hardest you shouldn't feel shame" seems silly as hell. If I try my hardest to run cross country and I fail and come out last out of every high school person in the entire city, indicating poor conditioning, I should still feel ashamed for being so out of shape. Or in the words of my favourite terrible film, The Rock. "Only losers whine about trying their best."

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2007-01-02 04:18am

Brian, I would love for you to define what exactly a 'stupid person' is, because you seem to be using your own, stereotype-fuelled definition.

Shame is a good weapon, you can use it like fear, like resentment, like anger, like fear.

Bullshit, but aside from that, you still haven't said why someone who isn't born a genius should be ashamed just for that fact.

In general, you can influence your intelligence, by studying and working harder.

To an extent, which I addressed in my post. You can cram and have every concept you don't get explained to you, but that will only go so far. You cannot magick yourself a better brain.

Where is this false dilemma coming from, intelligence is 100% about genetics or 0% about genetics.

From you, since I'm not the one defending the idea that there's a distinct subclass of fastbreeding idiots.

Who said that I don't respect stupid people who work hard?

Because you call on them to feel ashamed for being 'stupid', that's why.

Did you watch the trailer? Tell me those peopl work hard and you must be out of your fucking mind.

And once again you argue from a stereotype rather than from reality. You're pointing to the trailer of a comedy as an argument, Brian. Think about that. There may be some truth in it's depiction of both the 'intelligent' and 'stupid' couple but if you're going to base your argument on that you're further gone than I thought.

If I try my hardest to run cross country and I fail and come out last out of every high school person in the entire city, indicating poor conditioning, I should still feel ashamed for being so out of shape.

If you were in poor condition on the startline, you haven't tried your best you idiot. Phsyical condition is something that you can easily improve and someone why tries a cross country run without preparation has every reason to be ashamed.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2007-01-02 04:48am

Bounty wrote:Brian, I would love for you to define what exactly a 'stupid person' is, because you seem to be using your own, stereotype-fuelled definition.

A stupid person is a person who is not intelligent. To me intelligence is problem solving ability, and this is usually linked to ability in mathematics and science. What kind of answer did you expect, fartass?

Shame is a good weapon, you can use it like fear, like resentment, like anger, like fear.
Bullshit, but aside from that, you still haven't said why someone who isn't born a genius should be ashamed just for that fact.

You really need me to spell it out?

Being intelligent is not 100% about genetics.

Therefore if it is x percent, x being hard work, and you're stupid, you are stupid in part because you don't work hard. Therefore you should be ashamed, if only a little. Your argument, do not be ashamed if you are not born a genius, only works if you assume intelligence has nothing to do with hard work. Not to mention it is a blatant strawman of my position. I said be ashamed if you are stupid, not be ashamed if you're not a genius. I expected better from you.

In general, you can influence your intelligence, by studying and working harder.
To an extent, which I addressed in my post. You can cram and have every concept you don't get explained to you, but that will only go so far. You cannot magick yourself a better brain.

More strawmen. I didn't say you could magic yourself a better brain. I just said you should be ashamed if you're stupid.

Where is this false dilemma coming from, intelligence is 100% about genetics or 0% about genetics.
From you, since I'm not the one defending the idea that there's a distinct subclass of fastbreeding idiots.

You mean from you since your entire argument is predicated on the fact that a person should not be responsible for being stupid. Here's a hint. If being intelligent is x amount of hard work and y amount of natural intelligence, if x > 0, then that person has responsibility for his intelligence. Therefore, if he lacks it, he should be ashamed to some degree. This is rather obvious, so I can't believe I have to point it out.

Not to mention at no time did I defend the evolutionary aspect of the movie. I defended the movie on its messages such as don't have children if you're not intelligent enough and don't be trailer trash. I also slammed Lord of the Abyss for his incorrect interpretation of the short story he mentioned.

Who said that I don't respect stupid people who work hard?
Because you call on them to feel ashamed for being 'stupid', that's why.

Wrong. I can respect a stupid hard working person. Hard work does not imply intelligence. You have some kind of warped view of intelligence.

And once again you argue from a stereotype rather than from reality. You're pointing to the trailer of a comedy as an argument, Brian. Think about that. There may be some truth in it's depiction of both the 'intelligent' and 'stupid' couple but if you're going to base your argument on that you're further gone than I thought.

Wrong again peabrain. I'm arguing from the definition of intelligence as problem solving ability, the only definition of intelligence which matters. I even stated earlier in the thread I did not believe IQ to be an adequate metric for intelligence, so it's blatantly obvious I do not buy into the premise of the movie. I do believe it has certain messages which need to be told. That is, be ashamed if you're stupid. Don't have children if you're too stupid to take care of them. And so on.

If I try my hardest to run cross country and I fail and come out last out of every high school person in the entire city, indicating poor conditioning, I should still feel ashamed for being so out of shape.
If you were in poor condition on the startline, you haven't tried your best you idiot. Phsyical condition is something that you can easily improve and someone why tries a cross country run without preparation has every reason to be ashamed.

You're a fucking dumbass. Physical condition is as linked to genetics as intelligence, if not more so. Intelligence, particularly in the context of the movie, is something you can easily improve. Do not chase a pregnant woman around with a beer bottle. Not to mention today, I helped a person sign up for independent learning courses to take high school from home. You can increase your intelligence above the trailer trash level easily assfucker.

You completely miss the point of the physical conditioning example. That is, the guy tried really hard, as hard as possible, and failed and was still out of shape. Should he still be ashamed for being out of shape? Of course, because he's out of shape. Should a stupid person be ashamed? Of course, because he's stupid. I would like to know your definition of "try your best" because you seem to think that it even exists when it's a horrid idea that anybody tries their best. Because if you try your best, that means you can't try better at all, and that is it. Fucking retarded, given you can always push yourself a little extra. If fatass can push a little extra to be physically fit, stupid can push a little extra to be more intelligent. The limits to physical conditioning are just as much as the limits to intelligence--genetics. Better luck next time, take your persecution complex somewhere else.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2007-01-02 09:16am

brianeyci wrote: A stupid person is a person who is not intelligent. To me intelligence is problem solving ability, and this is usually linked to ability in mathematics and science. What kind of answer did you expect, fartass?

Brian, I think that point that is trying to be made is that peoples intelligence varies, not because they want to be that way, but because that is the natural limit of their abilities.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2007-01-02 11:25am

Stuart Mackey wrote:
brianeyci wrote: A stupid person is a person who is not intelligent. To me intelligence is problem solving ability, and this is usually linked to ability in mathematics and science. What kind of answer did you expect, fartass?
Brian, I think that point that is trying to be made is that peoples intelligence varies, not because they want to be that way, but because that is the natural limit of their abilities.

And I say... soooooooooooooooooooooo what. Might as well say people's body type varies, not because they want it to be that way, but because that is the natural limit of their abilities. Therefore, people shouldn't be ashamed of themselves if they're out of shape. Wooooow that really applies to getting your body in shape. This "you have to be a genius to be intelligent" makes damn little sense in the context of trailer trash I'm laughing my ass off. It's a strawman, but a funny strawman. Unless you're mentally handicapped, not representative of the majority of the population, you're smarter than trailer trash by... da da dum... not running around thinking smashing a bottle at a pregnant woman. Wow, that was hard, wasn't it.

CarsonPalmer · Post by **CarsonPalmer** » 2007-01-02 11:30am

What the hell? I don't understand your point about the runner. If he's in the best shape he can be in, than he's got nothing to be ashamed. If he slacked off, he's got something to be ashamed of. That's all. He can't control where he finishes. All he can control is his effort.

Certain people just don't have the natural mental facilities to do certain things. You can't expect them to change the way they were born. They can try to improve themselves, but that's about it.