Idiocracy - would have humanity gone extinct eventually?

[brianeyci]

If he tries really hard and fails, and he's still out of shape, he should still be ashamed for being out of shape just like a stupid person should be ashamed of being stupid if he tries really hard and fails. I don't know where this idea of you try hard you can always get in shape comes from. Seems people have no idea of how many people go on fad diets, use fad exercise machines, gain a few pounds only to get a few pounds more. But noooooooo they tried hard, so they don't need to be ashamed . How many more times do I have to explain that. "If he's in the best shape he can be in" or "If he's in the best intellectual shape he can be in..." guess what, intelligence is a lifelong process! There is no such thing as the best intellectual shape you can be in, because you can always be more intelligent, study more, learn more. Fucking duh.

[Bounty]

I don't know where this idea of you try hard you can always get in shape comes from.

I don't know where this idea of 'if you try hard, you can always be smart' comes from, either.

If a person uses fad diets to prepare for a cross-country run, he is cutting corners, has not done all he can to succeed and should be ashamed. If he followed a responsible exercise regime and proper diet, he should not be ashamed because there was nothing else he could have done to win.

If a person parties all day and fails a test, he should be ashamed. If a person studies hard for a test, crams the theory and remakes the exercises, maybe gets tutoring and still fails, he should not be ashamed because he's done everything in his power to succeed. The only error he has made is that he has overestimated his qualifications for that particular course and needs to find something more suitable.

Unless you're mentally handicapped, not representative of the majority of the population, you're smarter than trailer trash by... da da dum... not running around thinking smashing a bottle at a pregnant woman. Wow, that was hard, wasn't it.

And there you go again, arguing from a stereotype in your head (unless you can prove that all, or at least a sizeable majority, of 'stupid' people chase pregnant women with beerbottles, as if that is a natural outgrowth of not being in the right end of the intelligence curve).

[brianeyci]

I don't know where this idea of 'if you try hard, you can always be smart' comes from, either.

If a person uses fad diets to prepare for a cross-country run, he is cutting corners, has not done all he can to succeed and should be ashamed. If he followed a responsible exercise regime and proper diet, he should not be ashamed because there was nothing else he could have done to win.

If a person parties all day and fails a test, he should be ashamed. If a person studies hard for a test, crams the theory and remakes the exercises, maybe gets tutoring and still fails, he should not be ashamed because he's done everything in his power to succeed. The only error he has made is that he has overestimated his qualifications for that particular course and needs to find something more suitable.

This is another strawman of my position. If you try hard that doesn't mean you'll be a genius, no more than if you try hard meaning you'll become an olympic athlete. But if you try hard you can avoid being stupid as in so fucking stupid you're trailer trash and go around chasing a pregnant woman with a beer bottle.

Seems you think that the value of intelligence is linked to the amount of work someone puts into it. Wrong, dead wrong, as wrong as saying if you work really hard you should get a good salary. Hard work doesn't imply value. The value of intelligence is independent of the work you put into it. This is rather obvious to anybody who views intelligence as trainable. You seem to have a huge chip on your shoulder.

Unless you're mentally handicapped, not representative of the majority of the population, you're smarter than trailer trash by... da da dum... not running around thinking smashing a bottle at a pregnant woman. Wow, that was hard, wasn't it.

And there you go again, arguing from a stereotype in your head (unless you can prove that all, or at least a sizeable majority, of 'stupid' people chase pregnant women with beerbottles, as if that is a natural outgrowth of not being in the right end of the intelligence curve).

You're a dumb fucking ass shit. You think I need to prove that a person chasing a pregnant woman with a beer bottle is stupid? You're out of your fucking mind. This difference between "being stupid" and "stupid" is something in your imagination, an excuse stupid people use to justify stupid behaviour. Trailer trash are more likely to drop out of high school, have babies when they can't take care of them in poor economic conditions (read: stupid). When you solve a problem, an argument with a neighbor, with violence, you are demonstrating poor problem solving abilities. This is rather obvious. Not to mention that trailer had a football player, and we've already debated to death the educational value of football in high school in this forum... absolutely zero.

I know you have a serious problem with this "mockery of stupid people" concept. I don't. I don't happen to think stupidity is a thing to be encouraged at all. It is a condition to be discouraged at all costs. In general I do not mock people who are stupid who try hard. But I still think they should be ashamed for not being intelligent. Maybe you don't, because you think that just because genetics is in play, you're off the hook. Newsflash genius, genetics is in play in everything you do.

[brianeyci]

Bounty since you arbitrarily define using a fad diet as not trying hard, even though people who go on fad diets I've seen do try really hard, arguably their personal best, why don't you tell me what the fuck your definition of "trying your best" is and why it should matter at all regarding the value of what you're trying for. This nebulous "try your best" is fucking bullshit, define it now.

Are you ashamed if you get an F? I sure am. And it's possible in courses which are not retard courses to try really hard and fail.

[CarsonPalmer]

Following a fad diet is just the same as studying history for a math test. It doesn't work. If you're giving it your best shot, you would have done the prelim work and realized that nobody who's good at running actually approves of using a fad diet.

How the hell do you want something so basic as trying your best defined? You're using a disingenuous example with the fad diet because that's cutting corners, as Bounty said.

It matters because if someone isn't naturally smart, you can't fucking expect them to be a mechanical engineer, or whatever the fuck your standard is. The best the guy can fucking do is find the best way he can support his family.

It matters because you're naturally smart. If you wind up doing odd jobs despite your natural talent, well, you wasted a chance a lot of people would give a lot for.

If some poor slob who's just not cut out for math or science gets a factory job, works eight hour days of good, honest manual labor, has two kids who are heading off to college, well, he's accomplished something pretty damn good. He's got a helluva a lot to be proud of.

Being smart by nature doesn't give you something to be proud of. It gives you high aims to strive for.

[wautd]

As to the OP, it's not likely to happen. Stupid people will eventually die off when the medical stuff they need is too expensive for them to afford.

It's not that simple. Everyone on earth was (at least) a bloody moron. They know how to operate (dumbed down) machinery (kinda) but all the technical mumbo jumbo has been forgotten and nothing can be fixed. spoiler They even forgot that plants need water

As to the other discussion, it's nothing to be ashamed of to be born dumb. But dumb people ridicule smart people is.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I read an article about this movie. Basically, it was so stupid, repellent, and offensive in test audiences and test-commercials they discovered that it would not be possible to recoup even half the production costs with a release. They actually determined (don't know how) that any commercial showing footage of the film would DISINCLINE people to see it.

[RedImperator]

It's called context fucker. Maybe you should quote the entirety of the paragraph that sentence belongs to to get the point I was trying to make. I was not trying to insult hardworking blue collar guys, but hardworking people who think being down to earth and drinking a six pack a day is something to be proud of. You and your selective quoting can kiss my ass.

Fuck you and fuck your context. You want the entire paragraph? You got it:

You're looking at this the wrong way. You're taking outliers rather than the mean. Most people think that being "down to earth" and drinking a six-pack a day is something to be proud of. Being a hard working blue collar guy is something to be proud of. Meanwhile, scientists, professors and so on are degraded and shit upon by the majority of the stupid people. People are proud to be stupid, vivftp style. University graduates on average get twice the salary over non-university graduates, so in general intelligence does mean better pay. If you're intelligent, in general you will be richer.

Now you tell me, Shakespeare, to anyone who can't read your mind (or, more probably, in light of your later comments, didn't anticipate your backpeadling), how the first bolded sentence changes the meaning of the second in any fucking way. The only possible way it does that is if you're conflating being a hard working blue collar guy with being a drunken slob, which, I hate to inform you, doesn't make what you said any better.

If you actually meant only blue collar workers who are also drunken slobs (ignoring for a moment your comments in other posts--the context of your argument, if you will--where you explicitly state a skilled tradesman should be ashamed he's not smart enough to be a quantum physicist or whatever the fuck you think the gold standard should be), then your communications skills are remarkably poor, even for someone from whom I've come to expect so very little.

By this logic, you should have committed seppuku years ago.

Since when does being ashamed mean you have to commit suicide. I say again if intelligent people can be ashamed a little for thinking too much about sex *cough* DW *cough* most people can be ashamed for not being more intelligent. What's the worst that can happen? A lot more emos and suicides? Please. Meanwhile you get people with no shame, such as G.W. Bush (tired of people using Bush to say intelligence doesn't mean more money so I'm going to use him for my point.) Or people who are proud of being stupid.

The only thing better than calling a moron a moron is calling him a moron in such a way he demonstrates his stupidity when he replies to it. I'll type the explanation real slow just for you:

1. Seppuku isn't ordinary suicide. It's reserved for defeat and deep shame.
2. You've spent this entire thread bleating anyone who isn't a physics professor, or whatever fucking arbitrary standard you've selected, should be ashamed of himself.
3. You're so Goddamn dumb, your shame should be great enough to be worthy of seppuku.

That last part was the insult. If you need any more help, I'll link all the big words to their definitions at M-W.com.

As for the OP, the whole premise is retarded on its face and stinks of 19th century junk science.

Again you're focusing on the science more than the plot and the point. FTL is junk science too. Did you watch the trailer? Showing how fucking stupid trailer trash are? The message is clear, don't have children if you're not smart enough to take care of them.

And I need some piece of shit movie with a retarded premise to tell me that? And the movie needs a bunch of elitist "hurf hurf hurf poor people are stupid!" baggage to make that point?

And while we're on the subject, no, FTL isn't junk science. It's a literary device because nobody but crackpots have seriously advanced a theory of FTL which doesn't involve negative energy or stumbling across a wormhole that happens to go where you want (and doesn't instantly collapse the moment you attempt to transit through it). And unlike FTL, bullshit theories about human intelligence, paranoia about a fast-breeding moronic underclass, and the identification of the poor with that underclass have all caused actual harm to millions of people in real life, which makes any film which uses that shit as the basis of its plot far more offensive than FTL could ever hope to be.

[brianeyci]

Time to deal with this bullshit once and for all.

If a person parties all day and fails a test, he should be ashamed.

So the only way a person can fail and be responsible is if he parties all day now? Failure is a reason to be ashamed unto itself, moron.

If a person studies hard for a test,

Wrong. A person who studies hard for a test, but studies incorrectly, may fail. Not meeting your test for "try his best" whatever the fuck that is (you have yet to define it).

crams the theory

Wrong.

The following tips appear in the University of Toronto's Mathematics Survival Guide, and are reproduced here because they state succinctly the key points.

In first-year mathematics courses, a good portion of your final grade will be based on formal written examinations. Following are some suggestions for maximizing your score:

1. Keep current. It is next to impossible to cram for a mathematics exam.

Well well Bounty knows nothing about taking mathematics exams. Not a surprise. So, somebody who crams is not "trying his best," again whatever the hell that means since you've yet to define what that means.

and remakes the exercises,

Wrong Again.



Doing a lot of problems does not result in someone learning mathematics. I'm reminded of a story my friend told me about a person studying mathematics the stupid way. Basically they had to do every question, every example. For example, the retard didn't look at the general formula of a parabola to figure out how to graph it. All she did was do every single example + 1 - 1 + 2 - 2 and did not generalize. A non-mathematical mind. Examples do help, but they do not guarantee you "try your best" whatever the hell that means. Now you might interpret this as the instructor saying "tough break, you do a lot of examples you can still fail and doing examples is pointless" (as if that's the message a teacher would want to communicate, everything's hopeless so don't try LOL!) Well you miss the point, to understand you need to generalize, allow time for the theory to be absorbed. Lectures are theory for that reason.

maybe gets tutoring and still fails,

Wrong again. The dirty secret on campus for tutors is you want your tutees or students to rely on you. A tutor needs clientele, so far better to get tutoring from someone who has no financial interest in teaching you. Because if he does, he might just tell you just enough to get you to pass, and not enough to get you going on your own. People who rely on tutors are not "trying their best," again whatever the hell that means, since you have some nebelous meaning of try your best.

he should not be ashamed because he's done everything in his power to succeed.

Wrong again. Revisionist history, things we tell ourselves to make ourselves feel better after we fail. Tell me, when you were watching Friends or playing video games, could you have been studying instead? Of course. So a person can never use the excuse he tried his hardest and failed so it is okay, because he could've tried harder. In other words, "try your best" doesn't fucking exist.

The only error he has made is that he has overestimated his qualifications for that particular course and needs to find something more suitable.

Bzzzzzt. This is why prerequisites exist for any course worth anything. You are responsible for having the background for the particular course before going in, so if you overestimated your qualifications, it is no excuse.

In other words, you approach studying mathematics from an ass-backwards stereotyped definition of the genius hunched over his textbook and learning everything in one week. Well I hate to break it to you, but in any course which is worth anything, it is impossible to cram, impossible to catch up unless you've been reviewing the material through the whole term. And you accuse me of stereotypes. There may be people who do learn mathematics the wrong way and succeed, but that's because they're geniuses. Tough break, if this is your final answer, it's pathetic.

[brianeyci]

Fuck you and fuck your context. You want the entire paragraph? You got it:

You're looking at this the wrong way. You're taking outliers rather than the mean. Most people think that being "down to earth" and drinking a six-pack a day is something to be proud of. Being a hard working blue collar guy is something to be proud of. Meanwhile, scientists, professors and so on are degraded and shit upon by the majority of the stupid people. People are proud to be stupid, vivftp style. University graduates on average get twice the salary over non-university graduates, so in general intelligence does mean better pay. If you're intelligent, in general you will be richer.

Now you tell me, Shakespeare, to anyone who can't read your mind (or, more probably, in light of your later comments, didn't anticipate your backpeadling), how the first bolded sentence changes the meaning of the second in any fucking way. The only possible way it does that is if you're conflating being a hard working blue collar guy with being a drunken slob, which, I hate to inform you, doesn't make what you said any better.

If you actually meant only blue collar workers who are also drunken slobs (ignoring for a moment your comments in other posts--the context of your argument, if you will--where you explicitly state a skilled tradesman should be ashamed he's not smart enough to be a quantum physicist or whatever the fuck you think the gold standard should be), then your communications skills are remarkably poor, even for someone from whom I've come to expect so very little.

There are two possible interpretations for why I picked blue collar worker.

1. I wanted to insult the intelligence of blue collar workers, because in general blue collar workers have less intelligence. I mentioned working hard because hard work does not imply intelligence and people who believe in "down to earthness" think it does.

2. I wanted to insult blue collar workers for providing for their families and working hard. I'm a fucking moron who doesn't think that taking menial jobs is important to provide for a family, even though I do so myself.

Now like a fucking idiot you pick number two when we are not taking about jobs or work at all, but intelligence. And not to mention I used "proud of" in two sentences in a row, called parallel structure. Meaning the two sentences are related.

As for quantum scientist, that is a Bounty strawman you bought into. The sentence which spawned all this bullshit was this:

Fuck being proud of being stupid, stupid people should be fucking ashamed of themselves.

Not that you should be ashamed if you're not a genius, but you should be ashamed if you're stupid. I also said there is no gold standard and everybody should be ashamed to varying degrees they're not more intelligent.

The only thing better than calling a moron a moron is calling him a moron in such a way he demonstrates his stupidity when he replies to it. I'll type the explanation real slow just for you:

1. Seppuku isn't ordinary suicide. It's reserved for defeat and deep shame.
2. You've spent this entire thread bleating anyone who isn't a physics professor, or whatever fucking arbitrary standard you've selected, should be ashamed of himself.
3. You're so Goddamn dumb, your shame should be great enough to be worthy of seppuku.

That last part was the insult. If you need any more help, I'll link all the big words to their definitions at M-W.com.

I have no gold standard moron. I explicitly stated everybody should be ashamed they're not more intelligent. The more intelligence you have relative to your peers, the less shameful. Shame is guilt, and if you accept you have a responsibility to be as intelligent as possible, you should feel a little ashamed. Also, since when does the shame of not being more intelligent equal the shame of wanting to commit suicide. I know what fucking seppuku is. You're treating shame as a 1 or 0, when you can be a little ashamed, a little more ashamed. Yes I'm ashamed I'm not more intelligent, and no it is not destructive to me and I feel no need to take suicide. Boo hoo, what an admission you got out of me, given I've said everybody should be ashamed to varying degrees. You're obviously one of those proud motherfuckers who doesn't know how to deal with shame at all and thinks any little bit of shame is wrong.

And I need some piece of shit movie with a retarded premise to tell me that? And the movie needs a bunch of elitist "hurf hurf hurf poor people are stupid!" baggage to make that point?

And while we're on the subject, no, FTL isn't junk science. It's a literary device because nobody but crackpots have seriously advanced a theory of FTL which doesn't involve negative energy or stumbling across a wormhole that happens to go where you want (and doesn't instantly collapse the moment you attempt to transit through it). And unlike FTL, bullshit theories about human intelligence, paranoia about a fast-breeding moronic underclass, and the identification of the poor with that underclass have all caused actual harm to millions of people in real life, which makes any film which uses that shit as the basis of its plot far more offensive than FTL could ever hope to be.

Okay this is a good point. But I haven't seen the whole movie, so I shouldn't really defend it seriously. I concede that the idea that there's a fast breeding underclass is harmful. I will note if the movie is really a film adaptation of Marching Morons, it is not about elitism, and since the hero of the movie is a US Army private, it is likely not about elitism. But I'll concede until I watch the movie.

[brianeyci]

And Red you hopped on the bandwagon a little late. There's been plenty of blue collar people posting in this thread, and they did not interpret my sentence the way you did, or why the fuck wouldn't they have called me out on it. Too fucking bad. By the way, I know that despite how dumb I am, I'm more intelligent than 9 out of ten people in my graduating class. In other words, I am far above the bell curve. Meanwhile, yes I'm ashamed a little I'm not more intelligent when I compare myself to intelligent people. OOoooooooooohhhhh I need to commit seppuku now . Either you're one of those people who thinks any guilt at all is wrong and can't deal with it himself, or you never paid attention to my argument at all. Whatever it is, fuck off.

[CarsonPalmer]

You don't understand. If you've done everything possible, you HAVE NOT failed. You've simply found your limit. And for god's sake, Bounty clearly did not mean cram in the sense of study everything the night before the test. Do you have to fucking nitpick at semantics now?

Good God, what gives you the fucking right to look down on blue collar workers? That you've got more natural talent than they do?

[brianeyci]

You don't understand. If you've done everything possible, you HAVE NOT failed. You've simply found your limit. And for god's sake, Bounty clearly did not mean cram in the sense of study everything the night before the test. Do you have to fucking nitpick at semantics now?

Good God, what gives you the fucking right to look down on blue collar workers? That you've got more natural talent than they do?

One last time: Define trying your best. I posted a scenario with the try your best runner, and Bounty arbitrarily declared that not trying his best even though that scenario was explicitly constructed for the person to try his best. So why the hell shouldn't I nitpick Bounty's mathematics example.

Again: I can respect hardworking idiots. I don't look down on them for their hard work, I respect their hard work. I look down on them for their intelligence.

I grow tired of repeating myself. All I said was this,

Fuck being proud of being stupid, stupid people should be fucking ashamed of themselves.

And you even later admitted that my post did not read the way you thought it did. Are you retracting your concession now?

[Bounty]

I posted a scenario with the try your best runner, and Bounty arbitrarily declared that not trying his best even though that scenario was explicitly constructed for the person to try his best. So why the hell shouldn't I nitpick Bounty's mathematics example.

I takes balls to lie when the evidence is higher on the same page, I'll grant you that.

It was *you* who appended your runner example with 'fad diets', even though it was pointed out to you that using said diets is the lazy option and does not constitute effort.

As for trying one's best - if you take every reasonable action to achieve a goal, you have tried your best. No, I can't write it down as an equation for you.

Again: I can respect hardworking idiots. I don't look down on them for their hard work, I respect their hard work. I look down on them for their intelligence.

If you look down on people for their lack of intelligence, you must not have a lot of people to look down unto.

Brian, you obviously have either a momentous ego problem or a frightening persecution complex - maybe both. You have been, as you said, repeating yourself since page one, becoming more and more unhinged. Please, step back, reconsider and try to ask yourself why people who are 'stupid' (a term which, again, you never properly defined) should be looked down upon.

[brianeyci]

I takes balls to lie when the evidence is higher on the same page, I'll grant you that.

It was *you* who appended your runner example with 'fad diets', even though it was pointed out to you that using said diets is the lazy option and does not constitute effort.

As for trying one's best - if you take every reasonable action to achieve a goal, you have tried your best. No, I can't write it down as an equation for you.

You're a fucking moron. This was my original sentence.

If I try my hardest to run cross country and I fail and come out last out of every high school person in the entire city, indicating poor conditioning, I should still feel ashamed for being so out of shape.

No mention of fad diet at all. I mentioned fad diet later, to relate to... oh I don't know... weight loss! You dumbass. I specifically constructed my original scenario for the runner to try his hardest and still fail, which is possible because of da da dum genetics. They try "their best" or their hardest. You pick some arbitrary point which supports your argument and does not support mine. When someone tries their hardest, they try their best. Obviously you do not think so for some insane reason, probably because you use it to bolster your side of the argument and attack mine. Your example of mathematics does not have the person taking every reasonable action either.

If you look down on people for their lack of intelligence, you must not have a lot of people to look down unto.

Brian, you obviously have either a momentous ego problem or a frightening persecution complex - maybe both. You have been, as you said, repeating yourself since page one, becoming more and more unhinged. Please, step back, reconsider and try to ask yourself why people who are 'stupid' (a term which, again, you never properly defined) should be looked down upon.

A little projection do we. I said one thing, stupid people should be ashamed of themselves, and it exploded into rants from you and CarsonPalmer about how hard working you guys were and how I shouldn't look down on you two. Well maybe, just maybe, I was referring to the stupid people in the video when I said this,

Fuck being proud of being stupid, stupid people should be fucking ashamed of themselves.

As for looking down on stupid people, do you see the top. Mockery of stupid people. Are you attempting to debate the very definition of this site now and you think you've found a weak target. Well too fucking bad.

[RedImperator]

Fuck you and fuck your context. You want the entire paragraph? You got it:

You're looking at this the wrong way. You're taking outliers rather than the mean. Most people think that being "down to earth" and drinking a six-pack a day is something to be proud of. Being a hard working blue collar guy is something to be proud of. Meanwhile, scientists, professors and so on are degraded and shit upon by the majority of the stupid people. People are proud to be stupid, vivftp style. University graduates on average get twice the salary over non-university graduates, so in general intelligence does mean better pay. If you're intelligent, in general you will be richer.

Now you tell me, Shakespeare, to anyone who can't read your mind (or, more probably, in light of your later comments, didn't anticipate your backpeadling), how the first bolded sentence changes the meaning of the second in any fucking way. The only possible way it does that is if you're conflating being a hard working blue collar guy with being a drunken slob, which, I hate to inform you, doesn't make what you said any better.

And Red you hopped on the bandwagon a little late. There's been plenty of blue collar people posting in this thread, and they did not interpret my sentence the way you did, or why the fuck wouldn't they have called me out on it. Too fucking bad.

Watch how much I don't give a shit.

By the way, I know that despite how dumb I am, I'm more intelligent than 9 out of ten people in my graduating class. In other words, I am far above the bell curve.

I suspect this says rather more about your graduating class than it says about you.

Meanwhile, yes I'm ashamed a little I'm not more intelligent when I compare myself to intelligent people. OOoooooooooohhhhh I need to commit seppuku now Rolling Eyes. Either you're one of those people who thinks any guilt at all is wrong and can't deal with it himself, or you never paid attention to my argument at all. Whatever it is, fuck off.[

If you actually meant only blue collar workers who are also drunken slobs (ignoring for a moment your comments in other posts--the context of your argument, if you will--where you explicitly state a skilled tradesman should be ashamed he's not smart enough to be a quantum physicist or whatever the fuck you think the gold standard should be), then your communications skills are remarkably poor, even for someone from whom I've come to expect so very little.

There are two possible interpretations for why I picked blue collar worker.

1. I wanted to insult the intelligence of blue collar workers, because in general blue collar workers have less intelligence. I mentioned working hard because hard work does not imply intelligence and people who believe in "down to earthness" think it does.

First Law of Holes: If you're in a hole, stop digging.

Like this is any Goddamn better, especially when you expanded the definition of "blue collar" to include tradesmen. There are plenty of people who are plenty intelligent who wound up on an assembly line or in the trades because college wasn't an option, or they liked fixing cars more than designing them, or they got shafted by their education. Insulting the intelligence of millions of people, without whom, by the way, civilization stops, on the basis of their jobs is a dumbfuck asshole thing to do. The fact that you're incapable of understanding that is just further proof you're a dumbfuck asshole.

2. I wanted to insult blue collar workers for providing for their families and working hard. I'm a fucking moron who doesn't think that taking menial jobs is important to provide for a family, even though I do so myself.

Considering you are a fucking moron with obvious deep-seated self-esteem issues (which we'll address later in this post), I see no reason why a reasonable person wouldn't come to that conclusion.

Now like a fucking idiot you pick number two when we are not taking about jobs or work at all, but intelligence. And not to mention I used "proud of" in two sentences in a row, called parallel structure. Meaning the two sentences are related.

You really need to quit blaming others for your poor communications skills. You're Mr. Self Improvement, aren't you? Learn to write coherently and then I'll flame you for the dumbfuck argument you meant to make, instead of the one you actually did.

As for quantum scientist, that is a Bounty strawman you bought into. The sentence which spawned all this bullshit was this:

Fuck being proud of being stupid, stupid people should be fucking ashamed of themselves.

Not that you should be ashamed if you're not a genius, but you should be ashamed if you're stupid. I also said there is no gold standard and everybody should be ashamed to varying degrees they're not more intelligent.

Usually I have to go back through the thread to find a contradictory statement, but you've saved me the trouble and made them in back to back sentences. "You shouldn't be ashamed if you're not a genius! Everyone should be ashamed he's not smarter than he is!" Keep up the great work, champ.

I have no gold standard moron. I explicitly stated everybody should be ashamed they're not more intelligent. The more intelligence you have relative to your peers, the less shameful. Shame is guilt, and if you accept you have a responsibility to be as intelligent as possible, you should feel a little ashamed.

No, you heap of shit, people should not feel ashamed of what they are. You obviously do, and maybe in your case I'll make an exception because you're so profoundly stupid (and arrogant on top of it, which is always a winning combination), but you're on some kind of other planet if you think people should go through life ashamed of how smart they are. I especially like how you've now reworded your argument so that even Steven Hawking should be ashamed of himself. Tell me, Brian, is this a misery-loves-company thing going on here? Do you think you'll feel better about yourself if the entire world shares your self-esteem issues? Right now you're coming off like an angry short guy who insists everyone else should have a Napoleon complex too.

I suppose your next move will be to backpedal and whine that what you really mean is everyone should devote himself to self-improvement and should only be ashamed if he's satisfied with his status quo. Or maybe you'll try "Oh but really really smart people's shame should be so small it's practically zero". Just so you know, there's no editing in this forum: you're on the record as saying everyone in the world should be ashamed of himself.

Also, since when does the shame of not being more intelligent equal the shame of wanting to commit suicide. I know what fucking seppuku is. You're treating shame as a 1 or 0, when you can be a little ashamed, a little more ashamed. Yes I'm ashamed I'm not more intelligent, and no it is not destructive to me and I feel no need to take suicide.

Oh for Christ's sake. I'm not explaining the fucking joke again. Jesus, how do you manage to brush your teeth every morning without accidentally drowning?

Boo hoo, what an admission you got out of me, given I've said everybody should be ashamed to varying degrees. You're obviously one of those proud motherfuckers who doesn't know how to deal with shame at all and thinks any little bit of shame is wrong.

No, you insufferable little turd, I'm perfectly capable of feeling and dealing with shame. I'm ashamed I didn't visit my grandmother more before she died. I'm ashamed I didn't go further to help one of my students last year who has a lot of promise but is fucking up his life because he has no guidance. I'm ashamed I act like an ingrate when my mom asks me to help her with something, after all she's done for me. What I'm not ashamed of is my intelligence. I wish I was smarter. I read books to get smarter. Unfortunately, I have other demands on my time and I have limitations on my abilities. Unlike you, I'm capable of accepting this, and I'm capable of doing so without tarring millions of people with whatever penny ante stereotype makes me feel better about myself, and then whining like a sad sorry bitch when I'm called on it. Now, are you done psychoanalyzing me, you little twat, or should I prepare for yet another go-round with you?

And Red you hopped on the bandwagon a little late. There's been plenty of blue collar people posting in this thread, and they did not interpret my sentence the way you did, or why the fuck wouldn't they have called me out on it. Too fucking bad.

My give-o-shit meter is pegged at precisely zero. I don't give a rat's ass how other people chose to respond to you. And anyway, how many people have directly replied to you? Four? Five? One's a high school student, one's a college student, one's a white collar, one's a former soldier on disability. I have no idea what Bounty or Stuart Mackey do for a living, so maybe they're the "plenty" of blue collar people who haven't taken offense.

By the way, I know that despite how dumb I am, I'm more intelligent than 9 out of ten people in my graduating class. In other words, I am far above the bell curve.

I suspect this says a lot more about your graduating class than it does about you.

Meanwhile, yes I'm ashamed a little I'm not more intelligent when I compare myself to intelligent people. OOoooooooooohhhhh I need to commit seppuku now Rolling Eyes. Either you're one of those people who thinks any guilt at all is wrong and can't deal with it himself, or you never paid attention to my argument at all. Whatever it is, fuck off.

Yeah, whatever, fuckstick. I got your argument and you have failed to convince me I ought to share your crippling insecurities. Blow me.

[brianeyci]

First Law of Holes: If you're in a hole, stop digging.

Like this is any Goddamn better, especially when you expanded the definition of "blue collar" to include tradesmen. There are plenty of people who are plenty intelligent who wound up on an assembly line or in the trades because college wasn't an option, or they liked fixing cars more than designing them, or they got shafted by their education. Insulting the intelligence of millions of people, without whom, by the way, civilization stops, on the basis of their jobs is a dumbfuck asshole thing to do. The fact that you're incapable of understanding that is just further proof you're a dumbfuck asshole.

You're a fucking motherfucking cunt rag. Why don't you read what I posted since you obviously like plucking quotes out of context.

No they should not be ashamed of their jobs.

As for insulting the intelligence, I just said you should be ashamed if you're stupid, end of story. In the context of that video, which has really stupid fucking people. I was insulting six-pack drinking blue collar workers who think that being down to earth is something to be proud of, not the blue collar worker who might be intelligent. But I bet you'll continue to deny you took my sentence out of context you fucking dick.

Considering you are a fucking moron with obvious deep-seated self-esteem issues (which we'll address later in this post), I see no reason why a reasonable person wouldn't come to that conclusion.

You assume guilt is somehow indicative of self-esteem issues you idiot.

You really need to quit blaming others for your poor communications skills. You're Mr. Self Improvement, aren't you? Learn to write coherently and then I'll flame you for the dumbfuck argument you meant to make, instead of the one you actually did.

Maybe you should read the whole paragraph instead of taking one sentence out of context asshole.

Usually I have to go back through the thread to find a contradictory statement, but you've saved me the trouble and made them in back to back sentences. "You shouldn't be ashamed if you're not a genius! Everyone should be ashamed he's not smarter than he is!" Keep up the great work, champ.

Who said you shouldn't be ashamed if you're not a genius? You're assuming like a moron that if you're intelligent, you're a genius you stupid asshole. I claimed everybody should be ashamed to some degree, not that if you reach a certain golden standard you shouldn't be ashamed. You can learn to read you dickass.

No, you heap of shit, people should not feel ashamed of what they are. You obviously do, and maybe in your case I'll make an exception because you're so profoundly stupid (and arrogant on top of it, which is always a winning combination), but you're on some kind of other planet if you think people should go through life ashamed of how smart they are. I especially like how you've now reworded your argument so that even Steven Hawking should be ashamed of himself. Tell me, Brian, is this a misery-loves-company thing going on here? Do you think you'll feel better about yourself if the entire world shares your self-esteem issues? Right now you're coming off like an angry short guy who insists everyone else should have a Napoleon complex too.

I suppose your next move will be to backpedal and whine that what you really mean is everyone should devote himself to self-improvement and should only be ashamed if he's satisfied with his status quo. Or maybe you'll try "Oh but really really smart people's shame should be so small it's practically zero". Just so you know, there's no editing in this forum: you're on the record as saying everyone in the world should be ashamed of himself.

Wrong. I explicitly pointed out one example of DW feeling ashamed he thought of sex too much. Why should someone like DW feel guilt for that at all? Because he thinks he can be doing something better with his time. Is DW insecure about his sexuality now? You come off as a proud asshole who thinks guilt is self destructive when it can be a constructive mechanism. Not only that, but I was speaking in the context of people proud of their stupidity. Reworded my tight ass. The post is right there you dumbass, how can I reword it.

As for editing, where is this insinuation that I would go back and edit my posts come from asshole. I did say that everybody in the world should have some level of shame, it's clear that's the argument I'm making. Back your fucking shit up that I'd go back and edit my posts in a debate to be dishonest, which is a serious accusation as far I'm concerned. What the fuck do you think would happen if I accused a Senator of editing their posts without any proof huh? You ass.

Oh for Christ's sake. I'm not explaining the fucking joke again. Jesus, how do you manage to brush your teeth every morning without accidentally drowning?

I understand your "joke". You think that since I'm very stupid, I should commit suicide. Well guess what--I feel guilt for not being more intelligent, and I didn't commit suicide. Therefore your "joke" is empirically proven to be wrong. And you've got a lot of nerve presenting it as a joke, when you were insulting my logic from the first step as if I should take it seriously.

No, you insufferable little turd, I'm perfectly capable of feeling and dealing with shame. I'm ashamed I didn't visit my grandmother more before she died. I'm ashamed I didn't go further to help one of my students last year who has a lot of promise but is fucking up his life because he has no guidance. I'm ashamed I act like an ingrate when my mom asks me to help her with something, after all she's done for me. What I'm not ashamed of is my intelligence. I wish I was smarter. I read books to get smarter. Unfortunately, I have other demands on my time and I have limitations on my abilities. Unlike you, I'm capable of accepting this, and I'm capable of doing so without tarring millions of people with whatever penny ante stereotype makes me feel better about myself, and then whining like a sad sorry bitch when I'm called on it. Now, are you done psychoanalyzing me, you little twat, or should I prepare for yet another go-round with you?

You were the one who "psychoanalyzed" me first, saying I should commit suicide you asshole. You made this personal first, not me.

My give-o-shit meter is pegged at precisely zero. I don't give a rat's ass how other people chose to respond to you. And anyway, how many people have directly replied to you? Four? Five? One's a high school student, one's a college student, one's a white collar, one's a former soldier on disability. I have no idea what Bounty or Stuart Mackey do for a living, so maybe they're the "plenty" of blue collar people who haven't taken offense.

You decided to come in, take one sentence out of context and reply to that single sentence. Why the fuck would you do that is beyond me, because the argument is more than just one sentence and you know it.

I suspect this says a lot more about your graduating class than it does about you.

So fucking what. Intelligence is a collective responsibility, and if you're more than pulling your weight you can be less guilty about it.

Yeah, whatever, fuckstick. I got your argument and you have failed to convince me I ought to share your crippling insecurities. Blow me.

You think it's insecurity that "stupid people should feel ashamed?" You also think it's insecurity that people feel guilty for one reason or another and are motivated to do certain things, like donate to Africa? Fuck you.

Guess what fucktard, did you ask me whether I thought you were stupid? And you still keep treating guilt like 1 or 0. You're probably a wildly successful person, but if so you're not representative of the majority of people who are stupid and are proud. You can fuck off now.

[brianeyci]

Two things I note:

Or maybe you'll try "Oh but really really smart people's shame should be so small it's practically zero".

In fact that has been the fucking argument from the very beginning you asshole. I'll "try" my ass, maybe you should fucking learn how to read.

Being ashamed isn't a 1 or 0, on or off thing. If you're a little bit ashamed you're not more intelligent, at least you'll push yourself to do better.

Right there in the sentence beside it, I say being ashamed is not a 1 or 0 thing, indicating shame can vary. Right beside the sentence where I claim that everybody should be ashamed they're not more intelligent, asshole.

Also,

Usually I have to go back through the thread to find a contradictory statement, but you've saved me the trouble and made them in back to back sentences. "You shouldn't be ashamed if you're not a genius!...

Did I really say "You shouldn't be ashamed if you're not a genius?"

Not that you should be ashamed if you're not a genius, but you should be ashamed if you're stupid.

Miss one word there didn't you. Not that you shouldn't be ashamed if you're not a genius, the complete opposite of you shouldn't be ashamed if you're a genius. I suppose you'll be a grammar nazi now and say I shouldn't use a double negative--well you can piss off.

You can fuck off now Red.

[CarsonPalmer]

Yes, I an retracting my prior concession, because your post DID read the way I thought it did. I see my faith in your intelligence was misplaced. Oh well, live and learn.

Bounty's right, the guy didn't try his best because if he's fat and out of shape, than he's not training. You seriously think we meant that he only needed to try during the fucking race? Are you a moron?

Why do you look down on them for their intelligence? How do you define intelligence? Ability to do calculus? Ability to pay the bills each month? Ability to deal with their kid's problems at school? Ability to talk about politics? Give me your definition of intelligence, because it obviously has nothing to do with having a successful fucking life.

[SWPIGWANG]

*palms on face*

This thread makes me stupid.....

[Surlethe]

Your point appears to be based on a false dilemma between pride and shame. Why should someone who isn't proud of something be ashamed of it? Should I be ashamed of growing up in an upper-class family simply because I'm not proud of it?

I remember a similar situation to this months ago, where you asked DW about why a person should feel guilty for being born in a first world country, guilt being the primary motivator of charitable donations. The crux is although it isn't your fault you're born in a first world nation, it's still your responsibility to take care of your fellow man and therefore most adults who donate feel guilt that they have more than someone in Africa. My point is the same here.

How are the two situations analogous at all?

A person has a responsibility to be as intelligent as possible.

Stop right here. Why is this the case? Especially when, as you pointed out earlier in the thread, intelligence is mostly genetic -- i.e., you don't have control over it? (EDIT:) If I concede for a moment your analogy above, this is like saying a person has a responsibility to be born into a poor, third-world shithole.

Therefore, if you're not intelligent, you feel shame.

And how does this not support the bifurcation I accused you of?

[Spoonist]

On the OP the reasoning is totally flawed. If it where correct there wouldn't bee any tall people, or white people, or redhaired people, etc.
Guess what, humans are selective in their breeding and generally people tend to mate with people that have similar charecteristics than their own.
This means that it would take much longer than a mere 500 years to breed out a distinctive feature...

[RedImperator]

First Law of Holes: If you're in a hole, stop digging.

Like this is any Goddamn better, especially when you expanded the definition of "blue collar" to include tradesmen. There are plenty of people who are plenty intelligent who wound up on an assembly line or in the trades because college wasn't an option, or they liked fixing cars more than designing them, or they got shafted by their education. Insulting the intelligence of millions of people, without whom, by the way, civilization stops, on the basis of their jobs is a dumbfuck asshole thing to do. The fact that you're incapable of understanding that is just further proof you're a dumbfuck asshole.

You're a fucking motherfucking cunt rag. Why don't you read what I posted since you obviously like plucking quotes out of context.

No they should not be ashamed of their jobs.

<sigh> This is why I didn't go into special education. Read it again, Brian: at no point in that post did I accuse you of saying they should be ashamed of their jobs. You insulted their intelligence using only their jobs to judge their intelligence. That's what "Insulting the intelligence of millions of people on the basis of their jobs" means. Whether they're ashamed of their jobs, should be, would be, could be, or any other God damn thing has no bearing on anything.

As for insulting the intelligence, I just said you should be ashamed if you're stupid, end of story. In the context of that video, which has really stupid fucking people. I was insulting six-pack drinking blue collar workers who think that being down to earth is something to be proud of, not the blue collar worker who might be intelligent. But I bet you'll continue to deny you took my sentence out of context you fucking dick.

In context or out of context, it doesn't change the meaning whatsoever, fuckhole, except in the context you apparently decided to keep to yourself.

You assume guilt is somehow indicative of self-esteem issues you idiot.

Oh for God's sake. Are you telling me this whole fucking exercise is a result of your inability to grasp the difference between guilt and shame? Never mind that you shouldn't feel guilty for your intelligence, either, but for fuck's sake that makes more sense than shame.

Maybe you should read the whole paragraph instead of taking one sentence out of context asshole.

What's this, you've run out of rebuttals so you've cycled back to your original whine? I put it back in context and the meaning actually got worse; you should be begging me to take it back out of context again.

Usually I have to go back through the thread to find a contradictory statement, but you've saved me the trouble and made them in back to back sentences. "You shouldn't be ashamed if you're not a genius! Everyone should be ashamed he's not smarter than he is!" Keep up the great work, champ.

Who said you shouldn't be ashamed if you're not a genius?

You did. In the paragraph to which I was replying. Speaking of which, drop your pants and grab your ankles for the next segment:

Not that you should be ashamed if you're not a genius, but you should be ashamed if you're stupid.

Miss one word there didn't you. Not that you shouldn't be ashamed if you're not a genius, the complete opposite of you shouldn't be ashamed if you're a genius. I suppose you'll be a grammar nazi now and say I shouldn't use a double negative--well you can piss off.

Brian, are you retarded? Seriously, no joke, are you actually retarded? Drunk? Maybe you're not wearing your reading glasses? English not your native tongue? Because under no fucking circumstances, ever does "Not that you should be ashamed if you're not a genius, but you should be ashamed if you're stupid," mean "Not that you shouldn't be ashamed if you're not a genius". I don't know why the fuck you decided to highlight the first "not" and insist the sentence actually means the exact opposite of what it says, but that's your problem, not mine. It's not a double negative--a double negative isn't just any old sentence with two negatives, it's a structure where two negative words cancel out and make a positive. You can remove them from the sentence and not change the meaning. Your "clarification" is actually a double negative--you can drop the first and second "not" (the second in contracted into "should" to form "shouldn't") and get "You should be ashamed if you're a genius". Your first sentence? Not a double negative. It means exactly what it says, and directly contradicts your following statement, which, for the convenience of the viewing audience, I shall copy and paste right here:

Not that you should be ashamed if you're not a genius, but you should be ashamed if you're stupid. I also said there is no gold standard and everybody should be ashamed to varying degrees they're not more intelligent.

Sentence one: you shouldn't feel guilty if you're not a genius, only if you're stupid.
Sentence two: Everybody should be ashamed they're not more intelligent.

Jesus God Almighty, maybe I need to start doing drugs before reading your posts, because you're apparently doing drugs while you're writing them.

You're assuming like a moron that if you're intelligent, you're a genius you stupid asshole. I claimed everybody should be ashamed to some degree, not that if you reach a certain golden standard you shouldn't be ashamed. You can learn to read you dickass.

This is even worse! Why the blue fuck should Stephen Hawking feel any nontrivial degree of shame over his intelligence? Do you even know what the word "shame" actually means? I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, maybe thinking you didn't realize the full implications of your position, but nope, you really did mean it.

Incidentally: dickass? Fail.

No, you heap of shit, people should not feel ashamed of what they are. You obviously do, and maybe in your case I'll make an exception because you're so profoundly stupid (and arrogant on top of it, which is always a winning combination), but you're on some kind of other planet if you think people should go through life ashamed of how smart they are. I especially like how you've now reworded your argument so that even Steven Hawking should be ashamed of himself.

So what was your plan? Quote this part, say nothing whatsoever relevant to it in your reply, and hope I didn't notice? I'm going to ask you a bald faced question right here, Brian: Should Stephen Hawking be ashamed of himself? Before you answer, actually look up the word "shame", in a good dictionary. Look at all the definitions, not just the first one. Maybe find some literary references to it, so you grasp the way the word is actually used by actual speakers of English. Then tell me if you can honestly say Stephen Hawking should be ashamed of himself for not being smarter than he actually is.

Tell me, Brian, is this a misery-loves-company thing going on here? Do you think you'll feel better about yourself if the entire world shares your self-esteem issues? Right now you're coming off like an angry short guy who insists everyone else should have a Napoleon complex too.

I suppose your next move will be to backpedal and whine that what you really mean is everyone should devote himself to self-improvement and should only be ashamed if he's satisfied with his status quo. Or maybe you'll try "Oh but really really smart people's shame should be so small it's practically zero". Just so you know, there's no editing in this forum: you're on the record as saying everyone in the world should be ashamed of himself.

Wrong. I explicitly pointed out one example of DW feeling ashamed he thought of sex too much. Why should someone like DW feel guilt for that at all? Because he thinks he can be doing something better with his time. Is DW insecure about his sexuality now?[/quote]

Oh Christ.

1. Thinking too much about sex and feeling bad for wasting time isn't the same as being insecure about your sexuality.

2. Show me where Mike actually used the word "ashamed". I have a hard time imagining Mike feeling "ashamed" about much of anything, let alone thinking about sex too much.

3. Your analogy falls flat on its face because Mike doesn't feel bad about thinking about sex, he feels bad about wasting time. He's committing an action which has an opportunity cost; all we poor folks who should be sharing your neuroses are in a state of being which is, according to you, sub-optimal.

Once again, I think we're getting near the root of the problem. You think "ashamed" is just a synonym for "feeling bad". I suppose if you want to core the English language's asshole out and obliterate all distinction between synonyms, it is. I suppose in your world, the following three sentences mean the same thing:

1. He felt ashamed for murdering fifteen prostitutes.
2. He felt ashamed for being late to his daughter's school play.
3. He felt ashamed for forgetting to run the dishwasher.

Of course, in your world "should" and "shouldn't" also mean the same thing, so perhaps you should (shouldn't?) be forgiven for missing some of the subtler distinctions between other words.

You come off as a proud asshole who thinks guilt is self destructive when it can be a constructive mechanism. Not only that, but I was speaking in the context of people proud of their stupidity. Reworded my tight ass. The post is right there you dumbass, how can I reword it.

Ah, and here we find the fallacy of bifurication Surlethe has been hounding you about. There are possible states between "proud of his stupidity" and "ashamed of his intelligence, no matter how smart he actually is". I eagerly await your long-winded diatribe about how this isn't actually a false dilemma because blah blah blah.

As for editing, where is this insinuation that I would go back and edit my posts come from asshole. I did say that everybody in the world should have some level of shame, it's clear that's the argument I'm making. Back your fucking shit up that I'd go back and edit my posts in a debate to be dishonest, which is a serious accusation as far I'm concerned. What the fuck do you think would happen if I accused a Senator of editing their posts without any proof huh? You ass.

There is no insinuation. There's no accusation. Just a reminder that you're stuck with whatever you happen to have written before, which can be a problem for someone who is capable of contradicting himself in back to back sentences and then denying it later by insisting up is down, black is white, and "should" and "shouldn't" mean the same thing. You see an accusation because you're stupid, because you read everything literally (more on that in a moment), and you have, on top of all your other delightful personality flaws, a massive persecution complex (again, more on that in a moment). All of these things are not my problem. If I wanted to accuse you of editing your posts, I wouldn't insinuate anything. I'd point-blank accuse you of it, present the evidence, and then link the relevant post in your punishment thread in the Senate.

I almost retracted that statement anyway, because on the one hand, I really don't feel like running down that rabbit hole with a guy who's capable of turning a one-line insult into "You think I should commit suicide" and carrying on about it for three consecutive posts. But on the other hand, fuck you. It's clear from the context (your favorite word) that I wasn't accusing you of anything. So point out where I actually did accuse you of editing your posts or being willing to dishonestly edit your posts, or kiss my ass.

I understand your "joke". You think that since I'm very stupid, I should commit suicide. Well guess what--I feel guilt for not being more intelligent, and I didn't commit suicide. Therefore your "joke" is empirically proven to be wrong. And you've got a lot of nerve presenting it as a joke, when you were insulting my logic from the first step as if I should take it seriously.

How do you empirically disprove a joke? Never mind, you might explain it again. Reading your drivel once is more than enough. Anyway, when you're in the dictionary looking up the definition of "ashamed", you might want to swing by the H's and look up "hyperbole". Then you can take your persecution complex and cram it up your ass.

No, you insufferable little turd, I'm perfectly capable of feeling and dealing with shame. I'm ashamed I didn't visit my grandmother more before she died. I'm ashamed I didn't go further to help one of my students last year who has a lot of promise but is fucking up his life because he has no guidance. I'm ashamed I act like an ingrate when my mom asks me to help her with something, after all she's done for me. What I'm not ashamed of is my intelligence. I wish I was smarter. I read books to get smarter. Unfortunately, I have other demands on my time and I have limitations on my abilities. Unlike you, I'm capable of accepting this, and I'm capable of doing so without tarring millions of people with whatever penny ante stereotype makes me feel better about myself, and then whining like a sad sorry bitch when I'm called on it. Now, are you done psychoanalyzing me, you little twat, or should I prepare for yet another go-round with you?

You were the one who "psychoanalyzed" me first, saying I should commit suicide you asshole. You made this personal first, not me.[/quote]

You really are genuinely incapable of understanding hyperbole, aren't you? Either that or you're deliberately taking a statement which obviously wasn't meant literally by its literal meaning in order to gain some kind of moral high ground.

And as for making this personal, you made this personal as soon as you sneered "Being a hard working blue collar guy is something to be proud of." All your evasions, your backpeadling, your "clarification", your "context", your bizarre, comical insistence that words mean the exact opposite of what they actually mean, all have done nothing or made it worse. "I don't mean they should be ashamed of their jobs, they should be ashamed they're dumb." "Well, I know they're dumb because they're blue collar." "Nothing's wrong with being blue collar, it just means you're dumb." "Oh yeah, tradesmen are dumb too." "No wait, nobody's dumb! Everyone should be ashamed though. Except you shouldn't be ashamed if you're not a genius. That means you should be ashamed no matter how smart you are. Especially if you're dumb."

Brian, you might very well be the worst debater on SDN. If I had to pick a debate team, probably about half the cast of Parting Shots would be in line before you.

You decided to come in, take one sentence out of context and reply to that single sentence. Why the fuck would you do that is beyond me, because the argument is more than just one sentence and you know it.

More irrelevant whining. You'd have been better off if I'd stuck with the one sentence. Everything around it and everything that came after it just made it worse.

So fucking what. Intelligence is a collective responsibility, and if you're more than pulling your weight you can be less guilty about it.

You're more than pulling your weight? Doing what, helping prove enough monkeys with enough time could produce the complete works of Shakespeare?

You think it's insecurity that "stupid people should feel ashamed?"

No, I think your hilariously stupid statement "everyone should feel ashamed no matter how smart he is" is a reflection of your own insecurities. I like how you flip-flop between "stupid people" and "everyone" when it suits your needs; too bad for you everyone else can read what you've written.

You also think it's insecurity that people feel guilty for one reason or another and are motivated to do certain things, like donate to Africa? Fuck you.

What the hell are you talking about?

Guess what fucktard, did you ask me whether I thought you were stupid? And you still keep treating guilt like 1 or 0. You're probably a wildly successful person, but if so you're not representative of the majority of people who are stupid and are proud. You can fuck off now.

Wait, was that an insult? Was that even a paragraph? Have you gone totally around the bend now or something?

Two things I note:

Or maybe you'll try "Oh but really really smart people's shame should be so small it's practically zero".

In fact that has been the fucking argument from the very beginning you asshole. I'll "try" my ass, maybe you should fucking learn how to read.

I really should cut this out and put it after the relevant part of the reply above, but fuck it, I'm tired and you're not worth the bother. Essentially, what you're now arguing is that very smart people should feel a trivial amount of shame for not being smarter. You use this to justify your statement "everyone should be ashamed of his intelligence" (no, no projection there, right Brian?). Except if the "shame" is so trivially small it's meaningless, then for all practical purposes there's a point at which you no longer have to feel shame.

So which is it, Brian? Should the smartest man in the world actually feel non-trivial amounts of shame over his intelligence, or is there a point where the shame becomes trivial, and therefore you are drawing a golden line through the bell curve?

[RedImperator]

Ghetto edit. I don't have to ghetto edit, but I'm not about to let Huxley's monkey here scream about my hypocrisy or whatever the fuck else.

It's not a double negative--a double negative isn't just any old sentence with two negatives, it's a structure where two negative words cancel out and make a positive. You can remove them from the sentence and not change the meaning. Your "clarification" is actually a double negative--you can drop the first and second "not" (the second in contracted into "should" to form "shouldn't") and get "You should be ashamed if you're a genius".

The bolded statement includes a typo. It should read:

"You should be ashamed if you're not a genius."

[brianeyci]

Brian, you might very well be the worst debater on SDN.

After getting a little nap and giving a little thought to it, fine, I was the one who made it personal by saying all blue collar workers were stupid. So I have to concede that. The intent was not that, but after reading it again I can see why you thought that.

However, I find you're ignoring the main point of my posts. That is, stupid people should feel ashamed, and the more intelligent a person is, the less ashamed he should be. There is no magical cutoff point. You accused me of picking a golden standard when I did not, but isn't that what you're doing with the Stephen Hawking example? Why the hell do you mention Stephen Hawking at all, to show my theory that everybody should be ashamed of lacking intelligence to not work for the super-smart, in other words 0.0000....0001% of the population? Give me a break.

The idea worth looking over is whether you can "compensate" for your responsibility to be intelligent by doing other things, and therefore feel no guilt. Let's take America's premier trailer trash, Britney Spears. She brings happiness to millions of people. Except we still insult her for lack of intelligence. You're not as bad as Britney Spears Red? That's not my point. The moment you try to say you can compensate for lack of intelligence with things other than improving your own intelligence, you open the doors to this kind of counter-argument. Spears doesn't work hard enough and other people do? Why does how hard a person work influence her value. If you want to say that real life gets in the way, and a person has other commitments, fine, but that doesn't mean guilt automatically equals zero, because the responsibility to be intelligent is still there. For Spears, and for everyone.

For your information, I wouldn't have accused you of going back and editing your own posts to be dishonest if I saw an "edited once by RedImperator" because I know people who have that ability had to earn it around here, and I wouldn't accuse a Senator or anybody else of editing to be dishonest unless I had proof of that dishonesty.