It's blackmail basically

Shrykull · Post by **Shrykull** » 2002-12-30 11:26pm

Fundies like to say that god does not send people to hell, people send themselves to hell by choosing not to do what he says. Isn't what he's doing basically blackmail? If I told you "Give me $300,000 or I'll burn down your house" wouldn't that me trying to blackmail you, make you choose between two undesirable choices, they seem to think since he gives you a choice it's not a threat

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-12-30 11:31pm

Of course its blackmail. How else could you get people to give money to something so stupid?

Orion · Post by **Orion** » 2002-12-30 11:48pm

I think you have stumbled upon what deffenatly will not be the last piece of illogical rationalization put forth by the bible that you will discover.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2002-12-30 11:50pm

I think Christianity at its core concepts meant for people to lead more spiritually fulfilling lives. I personally think it's the people who took command (ie catholic church) who messed everything up.

GrandMasterTerwynn · Post by **GrandMasterTerwynn** » 2002-12-31 12:59am

Shrykull wrote:Fundies like to say that god does not send people to hell, people send themselves to hell by choosing not to do what he says. Isn't what he's doing basically blackmail? If I told you "Give me $300,000 or I'll burn down your house" wouldn't that me trying to blackmail you, make you choose between two undesirable choices, they seem to think since he gives you a choice it's not a threat

Well, from a purely objective point of view, the original purpose of religion was to keep the under-classes in line. To that end, you need to give them the promise of something good for them that comes if they lead pious, non-rebellious lives, and torture if they don't. Of course, in today's more secular and technological culture, religion has kinda upped the stakes, especially by playing on people's inborn fear of death.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-31 01:04am

Shinova wrote:I think Christianity at its core concepts meant for people to lead more spiritually fulfilling lives. I personally think it's the people who took command (ie catholic church) who messed everything up.

Christianity's core concepts are defined by Paul, who was a hateful bastard, and his adherents. Its core concepts were to convince you to give money to their cult so it could grow. I don't think Jesus himself would have approved of all the stuff in the New Testament, and even his morality was only acceptable if you "take it in the context of the era".

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2002-12-31 01:07am

Darth Wong wrote:
Shinova wrote:I think Christianity at its core concepts meant for people to lead more spiritually fulfilling lives. I personally think it's the people who took command (ie catholic church) who messed everything up.
Christianity's core concepts are defined by Paul, who was a hateful bastard, and his adherents. Its core concepts were to convince you to give money to their cult so it could grow. I don't think Jesus himself would have approved of all the stuff in the New Testament, and even his morality was only acceptable if you "take it in the context of the era".

Whoops. I was thinking more along the lines of the golden rule (Do onto others as you'd have them do to you(?))

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2002-12-31 01:08am

I've never been into christianity so I don't know what book is what and what book says what. And I'm too lazy and disinterested to try to read through the whole thing.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-31 01:10am

Shinova wrote:I've never been into christianity so I don't know what book is what and what book says what. And I'm too lazy and disinterested to try to read through the whole thing.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationis ... lence.html

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2002-12-31 01:29am

I find it interesting that people who debate about Christianity often know more about the Bible than the Christians who made the website.

SyntaxVorlon · Post by **SyntaxVorlon** » 2002-12-31 04:04am

Shinova,
You're probably better off reading Lao-Tzu, if you want spiritual fulfillment.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2002-12-31 04:16am

Shinova wrote:I've never been into christianity so I don't know what book is what and what book says what. And I'm too lazy and disinterested to try to read through the whole thing.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

Easy access to the "best" parts of the Bible.

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2002-12-31 07:32am

I've had some lively debates with my father and his wife (both of whome have recently rediscovered the Church of Rome after a lapse of many years) on just this subject. His wife (I can't think of her as my stepmother since I never lived with Dad after my parents were divorced) told me: "You are commanded to believe."

The single greatest problem with this (even greater than the issue of blackmail) is that belief or unbelief is simply not an act of will (at least not for an open, rational mind, one not determined to indulge in wishful thinking). I simply repeated to her something I read off an athiest website - it's just so apt. I told her that I no more chose to disbelieve in God than I chose to disbelieve in elves. I simply find I can't believe anymore. After reading the Bible, Christian literature from ancient to modern, and the writings of skeptics and scientists, I simply could not believe anymore (I was raised a Christian, then turned to Deism in high school, then finally realized I was an atheist in graduate school). The evidence had convinced me that Chritianity was nothing more than a superstition, and Christian ministers and priests were no more than purveyors of ancient myths.

Let me put it this way: suppose I told you that Santa Claus was real, and that if you did not accept that he was, I would torture you to death over the course of a week, and demonstrated some of the means I would employ enough to scare you into wetting yourself. Suppose further that I somehow had the power to know whether you really did believe, or whether you were simply telling me what I wanted to hear. So you cannot lie to me successfully. Even knowing all this, could you convince yourself that Santa Claus really does exist?

No. You couldn't. You can mouth the words all you like; no matter how frightened you are, you know Santa Claus is nothing but a myth. You could fall down on your knees, clasp your hands and say: " Yes! I do believe in Santa!" a thousand times; it wouldn't change the fact that you know there's no jolly fat man living at the North Pole with a toy factory full of elves. You know that reindeer can't fly. You know there's no way to put toys enough for millions of kids in a single sleigh, and no way for one man to deliver those toys to hundreds of millions of kids in a single night. You know these things, and you can't unconvince yourself, because no matter how scared you are, deep down your rational mind knows the truth and simply will not accept them.

This is what almost inevitably happens to the rational, open mind regarding Christianity, once that mind delves into it. This is the position in which I find myself regarding Christianity. I simply can't believe it.

Phil Skayhan · Post by **Phil Skayhan** » 2002-12-31 08:18am

I think extortion would be a more accurate term rather than blackmail.

Combine that with the sex crime coverups and the Catholic Church is certainly ripe to be charged under the RICO Act.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-12-31 09:08am

Actually the whole thing is an al-caponeesque protection racket.

Pastor Andy · Post by **Pastor Andy** » 2002-12-31 11:27am

I find it interesting that people who debate about Christianity often know more about the Bible than the Christians who made the website.

"Interesting" is not the word that I would use; something more along the lines of "sad" or "pathetic" fills the bill more adequately in my opinion.

As a pastor, I strive to encourage people to know what the Bible says for themselves, and to then apply those principles to their lives, instead of relying on being spoon-fed once a week by their pastor or (even worse) by someone on the television set.

Is Christianity divine blackmail? No. If the premise of the creation of this universe by an infinite being is accepted, then it follows that said being has the power to regulate how that universe is run. It's a fairly simple concept (regardless of how theologians like to use big words to describe it!). If God is truly "God," then He has the authority to tell us what to do. A bitter pill to swallow, to be certain, but true nonetheless.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2002-12-31 11:35am

Pastor Andy wrote:If God is truly "God," then He has the authority to tell us what to do. A bitter pill to swallow, to be certain, but true nonetheless.

Well then, if your parents are truly your parents, and it was them who brought you into this world, I guess they have justification to beat you senseless, or kill you if you talk back. The can starve you, give you deseases, let bigger kids beat you up if you were disobedient. They can do whatever they want to do to you as they see it fit. A bitter pill to swallow, to be certain, but true nonetheless.

jaeger115 · Post by **jaeger115** » 2002-12-31 11:46am

If God is truly "God," then He has the authority to tell us what to do. A bitter pill to swallow, to be certain, but true nonetheless.

oh yeah? Authority? Who gave humans knowledge? Satan! Who denied humans knowledge? God! Knowledge comes before authority

Pastor Andy · Post by **Pastor Andy** » 2002-12-31 12:00pm

Well then, if your parents are truly your parents, and it was them who brought you into this world, I guess the have justification to beat you senseless, or kill you if you talk back. The can starve you, give you deseases, let bigger kids beat you up if you were disobedient. They can do whatever they want to do to you as they see it fit. A bitter pill to swallow, to be certain, but true nonetheless.

Strawman. How is the limited, finite authority of a finite, created being even remotely comparable in scale and scope the authority of an infinite being?

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2002-12-31 12:02pm

Pastor Andy wrote:Strawman. How is the limited, finite authority of a finite, created being even remotely comparable in scale and scope the authority of an infinite being?

Oh, so it's OK and justifilable for God to me a murderous asshole. And you wonder why we think your religion is full of shit.

Pastor Andy · Post by **Pastor Andy** » 2002-12-31 12:03pm

oh yeah? Authority? Who gave humans knowledge? Satan! Who denied humans knowledge? God! Knowledge comes before authority

And what have we done with that knowledge?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "Knowledge comes before authority."

Tosho · Post by **Tosho** » 2002-12-31 12:13pm

pastor andy this is how we see see your argument:

http://vuletic.com/hume/officer.pdf pay special attention to the tenth officer.

Pastor Andy · Post by **Pastor Andy** » 2002-12-31 12:20pm

pastor andy this is how we see see your argument:

http://vuletic.com/hume/officer.pdf pay special attention to the tenth officer.

Is that a valid link? I can't bring it up.

I apologize if my worldview offends. Have a good one!

Andrew J. · Post by **Andrew J.** » 2002-12-31 12:34pm

Pastor Andy wrote: If the premise of the creation of this universe by an infinite being is accepted, then it follows that said being has the power to regulate how that universe is run. It's a fairly simple concept (regardless of how theologians like to use big words to describe it!). If God is truly "God," then He has the authority to tell us what to do. A bitter pill to swallow, to be certain, but true nonetheless.

If we assume, for the moment, that the universe was created bya God, it is his responsibility to take care of the universe and look after its inhabitants. If he creates us and then mistreats us, he is an irresponsible, bad God.

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2002-12-31 12:39pm

DPDarkPrimus wrote:I find it interesting that people who debate about Christianity often know more about the Bible than the Christians who made the website.

Ive tried to read the Bible. I think it is only fair I read a book I dont believe in.
But I just have never done well with that kind of writing. After a few sentances my eyes glaze over and I get lost or disinterested. Ive had the same problems with stuff like Shakespere. Anyone else have such trouble with such kinds of literature?

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

It's blackmail basically

It's blackmail basically

Re: It's blackmail basically