Star Trek Vs Harrington

[Junghalli]

Really I think it devolves to what you define by "beat," technologically Trek loses to almost any popular Sci-Fiverse. However if you compare StarFleet with other nations mano a mano, so to speak, it's possible that Trek could win...

Actually Trek has fairly good technology compared to most lower end SF universes, they just don't apply it very well at all.

[18-Till-I-Die]

The 64MT, as has been pointed out a million times already, comes from the non-canon TNG TM and has, indeed, NO CANONICITY WHATSOEVER. That being said TNG torpedoes seem to be triple-figure KT and may be up to single figure MT on occasion.

Yes well, that's what i was talking about. Some people in thsi thread were saying ST had 'megaton yeild' torpedoes, and like i said, the more reasonable (shown on the show and movies) yeilds tended to be below the megaton yeild on most occasions.

They DO affect shields including Borg ones even after adaption which indicates that there is at least a partial DET component to them. I agree they're not powerful enough to defeat Honorverse defenses.

Ok that makes sense.

Which are going to be completely useless against a smartly handled Fed ship. While the extremely stupidly written Trek crews might fall to them thanks to being complete and utter morons on occasion, Trek technology means they can avoid them missile volleys with pathetic ease.

But if they cant realistically damage Honorverse ships at long range that's useless. Trek ships have never been shown, to my knowledge, fighting at very long (for space) ranges, in most cases they get within a few miles of their enemy before firing. There are innumerablke examples of this, including the vast majority of the battles seen. So by all rights they will have to get well within the Honorverse firing range to shoot at them.

Then of course, the Honorverse ships have energy weapons like lasers and such which, IIRC, travel at c and therefore can hit targets out to a million miles with fairly good accuarcy, at the ranges Trek ships fight at they will probably hit instantly. And they're very powerful, if i recall they have a 'smashing' kinetic effect too, which will be very, very bad for ST ships which have shown in the past to be vulnerable to kinetic impacts.

And then of course there is a big question as to weather or not their weapons will even have any affect against the Honorverse ships if they do hit, since they can be shot down by point defense (photon torpedoes were solid projectiles last i checked) and hey tend to fight at very close (for space) ranges. Sometimes close for seagoing vessels.

It's far from a given that Star Trek would even be able to fight them effectively, seeing as the usual tactics used by Starfleet are extremely lackluster to say the least. They're technology is quite impressive (by our standards) but as said before they use it like a retard trying to work out the controls of a jet fighter by trial and error.

[Batman]

Which are going to be completely useless against a smartly handled Fed ship. While the extremely stupidly written Trek crews might fall to them thanks to being complete and utter morons on occasion, Trek technology means they can avoid them missile volleys with pathetic ease.

But if they cant realistically damage Honorverse ships at long range that's useless. Trek ships have never been shown, to my knowledge, fighting at very long (for space) ranges, in most cases they get within a few miles of their enemy before firing. There are innumerablke examples of this, including the vast majority of the battles seen. So by all rights they will have to get well within the Honorverse firing range to shoot at them.

For, if they for the very first time in the history of Star Trek, fight smart for a change, a couple of seconds. Notice I'm not saying that canon Starfleet can do that, but Starfleet technology can.
SNIPPED as a) Honorverse weapons have no more kinetic effect than could be expected from their real-world counterparts, and b) outgun Starfleet's something fierce anyway.

And then of course there is a big question as to weather or not their weapons will even have any affect against the Honorverse ships if they do hit, since they can be shot down by point defense (photon torpedoes were solid projectiles last i checked) and hey tend to fight at very close (for space) ranges. Sometimes close for seagoing vessels.

Is it me or did I explicitely mention that Starfleet is screwed unless they can use unconventional tactics that may or may not work on the Honorverse?

[Kamakazie Sith]

Starr Trek, theoretically, 200-400 years in our future, would have a hard time with the "Space: Above and Beyond" civilisation, which is portrayed as being about 60 years in our future.

If fightign was contained to space only, as mentioned earlier, they may be able to beat up the "Aliens" universe.

Are you serious? I don't remember any hard numbers being established for SAAB.

Sorry for being OT.

[18-Till-I-Die]

I'm not really disagreeing with anything you said, Batman, i was just originally asking where the 'megaton yeild' statements were from, and pointing out some arguments infavor of honorverse. I agree with most of what you were saying, it would, in my mind, be a kind of stalemate in a one on one battle with both sides unable to effectively engage the other. But if it gets to energy weapons range, ST is toast. That and the point you mentioned about the small craft (comapred to a warship) surviving a 200+ megaton warhead, which brings into question weather or not the Honorverse warships will even notice KT yield antimatter bombs detonating against their hulls...assuming it penetrates their shields at all.

For, if they for the very first time in the history of Star Trek, fight smart for a change, a couple of seconds. Notice I'm not saying that canon Starfleet can do that, but Starfleet technology can.

Yes i see, and i agree with what you're saying. It's not a secret that ST uses their technology, to say the least, very poorly. But then that proviso, "if they fight smart" is necessary.

SNIPPED as a) Honorverse weapons have no more kinetic effect than could be expected from their real-world counterparts, and b) outgun Starfleet's something fierce anyway.

It's been a while since i read the Honorverse books but i thought that grasers were described in one of the books as having such. Conceded though since it wouldnt matter either way.

Is it me or did I explicitely mention that Starfleet is screwed unless they can use unconventional tactics that may or may not work on the Honorverse?

Yes in my original post i wasn't directly responding to you, i was pointing out some arguments and asking about the yield of photon torpedoes.

[Batman]

Especially considering SAAB ALSO had artificial gravity and FTL travel so them being 60 years in the future doesn't exactly say much about their tech level.

[Batman]

That and the point you mentioned about the small craft (comapred to a warship) surviving a 200+ megaton warhead, which brings into question weather or not the Honorverse warships will even notice KT yield antimatter bombs detonating against their hulls...assuming it penetrates their shields at all.

You DO realize that 250 MT warhead DIDN'T detonate against Candless' hull but her wedge, right? Her radiation shielding was BARELY able to cope with it. KT level actual hull hits may very well be able to do at least small Honorverse vessels in. (Their utter and complete inability to LAND them under normal circumstances notwithstanding).

For, if they for the very first time in the history of Star Trek, fight smart for a change, a couple of seconds. Notice I'm not saying that canon Starfleet can do that, but Starfleet technology can.

Yes i see, and i agree with what you're saying. It's not a secret that ST uses their technology, to say the least, very poorly. But then that proviso, "if they fight smart" is necessary.

Absolutely.

[Lord of the Abyss]

It's been a while since i read the Honorverse books but i thought that grasers were described in one of the books as having such.

Grasers are described as having an added "smashing" effect compared to lasers, but I think that's because grasers put so much more energy into what they hit that the grased material explodes much more violently.

[18-Till-I-Die]

You DO realize that 250 MT warhead DIDN'T detonate against Candless' hull but her wedge, right? Her radiation shielding was BARELY able to cope with it. KT level actual hull hits may very well be able to do at least small Honorverse vessels in. (Their utter and complete inability to LAND them under normal circumstances notwithstanding.

Yes i know about taht incident in the book. It's been a good long while since i've read it but i know what you're talking about.

Granted you have a point, the smaller ships may be taken out by sufficiently large warheads, assuming they can hit them. But one should also remember that while the ship's shields were barely able to cope, they DID survive it. And that was not even a warship, i'm all but positive that a warship could take that better. That and, being a warship, a dreadnaught or superdreadnaught will have better armor, simply because of a higher quality standard. And if that is the case, that both shields and armor is superior, then as i was saying, the ability of Federation ships to even hurt then comes into question.

One should point out that Starfleet accuarcy is not too good either (remember that Trekmiss video where the ships were doging photon torps left and right?).

Grasers are described as having an added "smashing" effect compared to lasers, but I think that's because grasers put so much more energy into what they hit that the grased material explodes much more violently.

Yes that makes more sense. I think that was adressed once before, but i wasnt sure exactly, that it was a result of the vaporization of the target.

[Jaevric]

Not only was the Candless not a warship, it's a non-hyper-capable, strictly in-system personal toy. Yes, it's got military grade sensors and shielding because of Harrington's connections, but it's still a tiny little ship; closer to a LAC than a frigate.

250 megatons is still way the hell more than we've seen a Federation photon or even quantum torpedo put out; the best you can say about this is that one of those torpedos might kill a LAC through its sidewall. If it can hit it, which is far from guaranteed considering the kind of point defense even a LAC possesses.

[Xon]

While Trek definitely has a decided advantage in strategic mobility (faster FTL AND no need to work with grav waves/worry about hyper limits)

Honorverse has been strategical FTL, thier highest speeds are compariable to some of Trek's Warp 9 stuff yet once they are up to speed they can keep going untill the crew & ship break due to old age where as Trek can only do bursts of those speeds.

[Stormbringer]

Just an idle thought, how does trek stand when compared to pre modernisation Grayson or Saganami era Manticore? There must be some point in the Honorverse timeline when a matchup might be interesting.

If anything, Starfleet is quite likely to take a worse beating. Earlier eras relied more heavily on thick armor and energy weaponary. Those two things alone will make it infinitely worse for the Trek side of the equation with out really affecting the Honorverse side too negatively.

While Trek definitely has a decided advantage in strategic mobility (faster FTL AND no need to work with grav waves/worry about hyper limits)

Actually, according to the calculation Mike and others have done, 1000c is about all a Federation vessel can sustain for very long. Trek has some very high sprint speeds, which will be helpful in breaking off or ambushes. Their speed doesn't really translate into an advantage in strategic mobility so much as tactical manuvering.

Honorverse warships can easily sustain speeds of 1200c to 1500c which puts them on a par with Trek for strategic speed. There is also the adittional advantage that they do not move in real space, unlike Trek ships, so their supply lines are 100% unviolable.

If anything, I think the FTL advantage runs with the Honorverse, not least of which is that they will be able to turn loose escorts vessels.

[Beowulf]

How can an Honorverse force an engagement? Stick a small fleet over each world capable of servicing a starship. Or destroy said world. Eridani protocols don't exactly apply in this case, no? Trek will have to engage or run out of supplies.

[CJvR]

Battlebarges can always force an engagement simply by attacking a position the enemy have to defend. As long as the BBs have a big enough firepower advantage that is a hard to beat strategy. If the enemy have a realistic shot at defeating the BBs in detail however the situation becomes far more difficult.

[CJvR]

[quote="18-Till-I-Die]

Grasers are described as having an added "smashing" effect compared to lasers, but I think that's because grasers put so much more energy into what they hit that the grased material explodes much more violently.

Yes that makes more sense. I think that was adressed once before, but i wasnt sure exactly, that it was a result of the vaporization of the target.[/quote]Well if you want kinetic impactors then the anti-missiles should do quite nicely. They are able to target inbound missiles well beyond energy range and are kinetic/wedge impactors, should make quite an impression on a ST style ship.

[Xon]

Honorverse warships can easily sustain speeds of 1200c to 1500c which puts them on a par with Trek for strategic speed. There is also the adittional advantage that they do not move in real space, unlike Trek ships, so their supply lines are 100% unviolable.

Those FTL speeds are for civilian cargo ships, not Warships of the Wall.

bulk carriers tend to use relatively low-powered sails and the lower hyper bands, which limits their practical speeds to perhaps 1,000-1,500 c. Passenger ships and those vessels specializing in transport of critical cargoes accept the higher overhead cost associated with more powerful sails and run in the range of 1,500-2,000 c. For the most part (though there are exceptions) only warships are designed around the most powerful sails and compensators their displacement will permit, giving speeds of up to 3,000 c.

[Prozac the Robert]

18-Till-I-Die:

The warhead hit the wedge of the small craft, and therefore the ship surviving tells us nothing about Honorverse ship resistance that we didn't already know: the wedges are pretty much invulnerable. It doesn't say anything positive at all about the ship's resistance to damage.

In fact, now I think about it it might be quite bad. The distance between wedge and ship is generally pretty large. If anyone knows he distance then we could get a rough idea of how much power the ship itself was exposed to by inverse square law. If it is in the km range then the ship would be taking millions of times less damage than in a contact explosion. And that's without some of it being stopped by the wedge.

Just an idle thought, how does trek stand when compared to pre modernisation Grayson or Saganami era Manticore? There must be some point in the Honorverse timeline when a matchup might be interesting.

If anything, Starfleet is quite likely to take a worse beating. Earlier eras relied more heavily on thick armor and energy weaponary. Those two things alone will make it infinitely worse for the Trek side of the equation with out really affecting the Honorverse side too negatively.

The fact that they relied on them doesn't necessarily mean they were any better than they are now. They probably devoted more mass to armour and energy weapons, but I have a feeling they were also smaller. And armour might allow them to survive the same or worse hits than their shielding, but it wouldn't do anything for sensors etc. in the case of a photon torpedo hit. Which would of course be much more likely with the older point defence systems.

At some efficiency of energy mounts or targeting systems for them, it probably becomes possible for fed ships to be able to operate within weapons range of a HV ship. And at some level of decreased defences, especially without sidewalls, it is probably possible to lob photon torpedoes from a reasonable distance.

Of course, it might be that there was never a point when that happened any time after the development of the wedge, in which case we won't get a decent matchup. But it seems reasonable for such a point to exist.

[Lord of the Abyss]

The warhead hit the wedge of the small craft, and therefore the ship surviving tells us nothing about Honorverse ship resistance that we didn't already know: the wedges are pretty much invulnerable. It doesn't say anything positive at all about the ship's resistance to damage.

In fact, now I think about it it might be quite bad. The distance between wedge and ship is generally pretty large. If anyone knows he distance then we could get a rough idea of how much power the ship itself was exposed to by inverse square law. If it is in the km range then the ship would be taking millions of times less damage than in a contact explosion. And that's without some of it being stopped by the wedge.

Here's the actual incident.

A two-hundred-megaton warhead detonated less than fifty kilometers from her ship. For one fleeting instant, Jamie Candless was trapped in the very heart of a star, and Honor's canopy went black as the armorplast polarized. But even through her own visceral stab of terror, a corner of her mind exulted, for it was a standard nuke, not a laser head. And that meant there was a chance, if only—
The plasma wave came on the heels of the flash, ripping out across Grayson One's course. But Honor had anticipated that. Her order to turn away had snatched the vulnerable open throat of the yacht's wedge—and her own—away from the center of detonation. The true fury of the explosion wasted itself against Candless' belly stress band. Only its fringes reached out past the wedge, and generators shrieked in torment as the particle and radiation shielding which protected the throat of any impeller wedge took the shock. Those generators were designed to protect the ships which mounted them against normal space particles and debris at velocities of up to eighty percent of light-speed. Grayson One and Candless were moving far slower than that, at barely nine thousand KPS, but their shielding had never been expected to face the holocaust which suddenly erupted across their base course, and the demon howl of the generators and the scream of audible warnings filled the universe. Honor yanked on the stick, jerking Candless away from what she hoped was still the bearing to Grayson One, and her darkened flight deck was a trapped, madly heaving pocket of hell as she shot the rapids of nuclear destruction.

[Ender]

I don't think I've ever heard of a Sci-Fi Universe that Trek can beat... anyone got one?

B5 younger races for sure, and I think a hard case can be made for them curbstomping the First Ones as well (or at least the Vorlons and Shadows).

Firefly would go down handily, they lack the resources, tech, or anything else to match Trek. That one would be as bad as Trek vs the Galactic Empire

The rag-tag fleet of nBSG yes, but the colonial fleet prior to it going down is highly debatable. Phasers and strategic mobility might make up for the difference though. Same for the Cylons.

Polseen and the Galactic Confederacy in space easily, on the ground sheer numbers of posleen would win and if they humans have joined them by then Trek would have to bomb them from orbit to wipe out Confederacy forces. The limited number of humans would screw the confederacy in the end however.

The could probably take the Republic and other polities from the Singularityverse, (the Republic certainly) it depends on how tricky they get with their tech. Although if the Eschaton gets wind of Trek using time travel all their worlds are going to be consumed by supernova.

They could kill everyone in the Accelerando-verse by shooting at the stations from far off, but if they tried to capture a station they would be shredded.

Pretty much any fantasy universe would be their bitch.

Really, Trek is a decent middle ground universe. Pretty speedy FTL, comms, a decent rescource base, megaton (single digit to low double digit) missiles and TW range energy weapons, mid double megaton range shields, and some nice exotic tech. The only reason it consistently looks bad is because rabid fanboys try and move it well out of its weightclass because they are convinced of its superiority because they are fans, rather then because they look at it hard.

[Dahak]

Just an idle thought, how does trek stand when compared to pre modernisation Grayson or Saganami era Manticore? There must be some point in the Honorverse timeline when a matchup might be interesting.

If anything, Starfleet is quite likely to take a worse beating. Earlier eras relied more heavily on thick armor and energy weaponary. Those two things alone will make it infinitely worse for the Trek side of the equation with out really affecting the Honorverse side too negatively.

The fact that they relied on them doesn't necessarily mean they were any better than they are now. They probably devoted more mass to armour and energy weapons, but I have a feeling they were also smaller. And armour might allow them to survive the same or worse hits than their shielding, but it wouldn't do anything for sensors etc. in the case of a photon torpedo hit. Which would of course be much more likely with the older point defence systems.

At the time of Edward Saganami, Battleships were still the main fighting ships, which are considerably smaller and weaker than Dreadnoughts/Superdreadnoughts. Those are the more modern unit.
And Grayson built ships fall very short of any modern standard, even at the time of tHotQ.

[Batman]

On the matter of FTL speeds: The Trek average 1000c if memory serves comes from VOY needing 70 years to get back to the AQ. That includes pitstops along the way most likely(because I very much doubt Starfleet ships are outfitted for several decades of continuous Warp travel) and a speed they can keep up forever at worst. Reasonable sustained speeds seem to be in the 3- to 5000c range with burst being low 5 figure c if not more. (Note how, ignoring for a moment the stupidity that is ENT, Trek ships DON'T take months to traverse Federation territory while travel times on that order are a given in the Honorverse). So at best they're even and they likely DO have an advantage in strategic mobility. Not that that helps them much mind you.
Honorverse ships being invulnerable in transit due to being in hyperspace: Works both ways. Yes, Trek can't engage them. Neither can Honorverse vessels engage Trek ones at Warp be it from real or hyperspace. Again fat lot of good it will do Starfleet but that one is not an advantage either way.

[Darth Servo]

I don't think I've ever heard of a Sci-Fi Universe that Trek can beat... anyone got one?

Planet of the Apes.

[Master of Cards]

I don't think I've ever heard of a Sci-Fi Universe that Trek can beat... anyone got one?

Planet of the Apes.

The Race?

[Coalition]

Here's the actual incident.

A two-hundred-megaton warhead detonated less than fifty kilometers from her ship. For one fleeting instant, Jamie Candless was trapped in the very heart of a star, and Honor's canopy went black as the armorplast polarized.

I'd like to assume 40 km as the detonation range.

Two hundred Megatons is the equivalent of 8.38*10^17 Joules.
40 km distance yields a surface area of 20.1 billion square meters (20,106 square kilometers).
This is ~41.7 MegaJoules per square meter.

Still, from Atomic Rockets, 1 Megaton at 1 kilometer will do 3.3E10 W/cm^2. We have a blast two hundred times stronger, but 40 times the distance, making it 1/1600 the blast.

Net = 1/8 the Wattage per square centimeter, or 4.125*10^9 W/cm^2.

So the surface (assuming aluminum) would be vaporized, but not much more.

[Ender]

I don't think I've ever heard of a Sci-Fi Universe that Trek can beat... anyone got one?

Planet of the Apes.

The Race?

In the last book the Race stated it was willing to use relativistic impacters to take out Earth if we overplayed our hand and started trying to dictate terms to them. They could definatley take out the Feds that way.