Ive tried to read the Bible. I think it is only fair I read a book I dont believe in.
But I just have never done well with that kind of writing. After a few sentances my eyes glaze over and I get lost or disinterested. Ive had the same problems with stuff like Shakespere. Anyone else have such trouble with such kinds of literature?
That's not uncommon. In fact, one of the most common and widely-used English translations of the Bible, the King James Version of the Bible (also called the "Authorized Version") was translated around the same time that Shakespeare was writing, so the grammar and syntax are very similar.
If you would like to know more of what the Bible says, I would recommend a more modern translation, such as the New International Version or, my particular choice, the New Living Translation. These versions, especially the New Living, give a faithful translation of the text in a modern English format.
Pastor Andy wrote:Is Christianity divine blackmail? No. If the premise of the creation of this universe by an infinite being is accepted, then it follows that said being has the power to regulate how that universe is run. It's a fairly simple concept (regardless of how theologians like to use big words to describe it!). If God is truly "God," then He has the authority to tell us what to do. A bitter pill to swallow, to be certain, but true nonetheless.
So basically you are saying that 'might makes right'.
TrailerParkJawa I do recommend that you read the bible, it truly is, as Isaac Asimov said, the the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "Knowledge comes before authority."
Ok, I'll make it easy for you. Knowledge and authority are two-way streets. The ruler, or god, as in your case, must know the people he is ruling. Are they rebellious? Are they mindlessly obedient? Or do they accept a benevolent ruler and reject a malevolent one?
For the people, they must know their ruler. Failure to do so results in the ruler becoming distanced from the people and might result in abusive behavior to the people (think Saddam Hussein). Your god has failed to understand his own creations.
What have we done with knowledge? We have used it to cure disease, launch satellites, split the atom, and bring babies in the world without sex. What has knowledge of God done for us?
Concession accepted - COMMENCE PRIMARY IGNITION Elite Warrior Monk of SD.net BotM. Demolition Monkey "I don't believe in God, any more than I believe in Mother Goose." - Clarence Darrow HAB Special-Ops and Counter-Intelligence Agent
The Emptiness of Theology
by Richard Dawkins
from Free Inquiry magazine, Volume 18, Number 2.
A dismally unctuous editorial in the British newspaper the Independent recently asked for a reconciliation between science and "theology." It remarked that "People want to know as much as possible about their origins." I certainly hope they do, but what on earth makes one think that theology has anything useful to say on the subject?
Science is responsible for the following knowledge about our origins. We know approximately when the universe began and why it is largely hydrogen. We know why stars form and what happens in their interiors to convert hydrogen to the other elements and hence give birth to chemistry in a world of physics. We know the fundamental principles of how a world of chemistry can become biology through the arising of self-replicating molecules. We know how the principle of self-replication gives rise, through Darwinian selection, to all life, including humans.
It is science and science alone that has given us this knowledge and given it, moreover, in fascinating, over-whelming, mutually confirming detail. On every one of these questions theology has held a view that has been conclusively proved wrong. Science has eradicated smallpox, can immunize against most previously deadly viruses, can kill most previously deadly bacteria. Theology has done nothing but talk of pestilence as the wages of sin. Science can predict when a particular comet will reappear and, to the second, when the next eclipse will appear. Science has put men on the moon and hurtled reconnaissance rockets around Saturn and Jupiter. Science can tell you the age of a particular fossil and that the Turin Shroud is a medieval fake. Science knows the precise DNA instructions of several viruses and will, in the lifetime of many present readers, do the same for the human genome.
What has theology ever said that is of the smallest use to anybody? When has theology ever said anything that is demonstrably true and is not obvious? I have listened to theologians, read them, debated against them. I have never heard any of them ever say anything of the smallest use, anything that was not either platitudinously obvious or downright false. If all the achievements of scientists were wiped out tomorrow, there would be no doctors but witch doctors, no transport faster than horses, no computers, no printed books, no agriculture beyond subsistence peasant farming. If all the achievements of theologians were wiped out tomorrow, would anyone notice the smallest difference? Even the bad achievements of scientists, the bombs, and sonar-guided whaling vessels work! The achievements of theologians don't do anything, don't affect anything, don't mean anything. What makes anyone think that "theology" is a subject at all?
Concession accepted - COMMENCE PRIMARY IGNITION Elite Warrior Monk of SD.net BotM. Demolition Monkey "I don't believe in God, any more than I believe in Mother Goose." - Clarence Darrow HAB Special-Ops and Counter-Intelligence Agent
Christianity's core concepts are defined by Paul, who was a hateful bastard, and his adherents.
Christianity's core concepts are defined by Jesus. Paul is nothing more than an extremely popular preacher.
Depends on which church you're talking about. Some focus on Jesus. Others on Paul. Every Christian I've ever met has their own pet verse(s) that they analyzise until they're blue in the face.
"everytime a person is born the Earth weighs just a little more."--DMJ on StarTrek.com
"You see now you are using your thinking and that is not a good thing!" DMJay on StarTrek.com
"Watching Sarli argue with Vympel, Stas, Schatten and the others is as bizarre as the idea of the 40-year-old Virgin telling Hugh Hefner that Hef knows nothing about pussy, and that he is the expert."--Elfdart
Pastor Andy wrote:Strawman. How is the limited, finite authority of a finite, created being even remotely comparable in scale and scope the authority of an infinite being?
So you feel that with power comes the right to be vicious and cruel. The more power, the more right to be vicious and cruel. And with infinite power comes the right to be infinitely vicious and cruel.
Small wonder the European royalty were fond of Christianity in the Dark Ages. It fit perfectly into their authoritarian needs.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
Depends on which church you're talking about. Some focus on Jesus. Others on Paul. Every Christian I've ever met has their own pet verse(s) that they analyzise until they're blue in the face.
Perhaps, but last I checked the religion was not Paulianity. If a Christian wishes to follow his teachings, fine, but the basic, core concepts of Christianity are those laid out by Jesus, not the ones laid out by Paul- those are optional, for lack of a better word.
The End of Suburbia
"If more cars are inevitable, must there not be roads for them to run on?"
-Robert Moses
"The Wire" is the best show in the history of television. Watch it today.
oh yeah? Authority? Who gave humans knowledge? Satan! Who denied humans knowledge? God! Knowledge comes before authority
And what have we done with that knowledge?
Well, most of the 'good' christians in history have used thier "knowledge of God" as an excuse to murder countless non-believers.
"everytime a person is born the Earth weighs just a little more."--DMJ on StarTrek.com
"You see now you are using your thinking and that is not a good thing!" DMJay on StarTrek.com
"Watching Sarli argue with Vympel, Stas, Schatten and the others is as bizarre as the idea of the 40-year-old Virgin telling Hugh Hefner that Hef knows nothing about pussy, and that he is the expert."--Elfdart
Depends on which church you're talking about. Some focus on Jesus. Others on Paul. Every Christian I've ever met has their own pet verse(s) that they analyzise until they're blue in the face.
Perhaps, but last I checked the religion was not Paulianity. If a Christian wishes to follow his teachings, fine, but the basic, core concepts of Christianity are those laid out by Jesus, not the ones laid out by Paul- those are optional, for lack of a better word.
Paul's writings are "optional"? Then why do they make up the bulk of the New Testament? If "true Christiantiy" is supposed to be just the teachings of Jesus, why don't people just use the four gospels?
"everytime a person is born the Earth weighs just a little more."--DMJ on StarTrek.com
"You see now you are using your thinking and that is not a good thing!" DMJay on StarTrek.com
"Watching Sarli argue with Vympel, Stas, Schatten and the others is as bizarre as the idea of the 40-year-old Virgin telling Hugh Hefner that Hef knows nothing about pussy, and that he is the expert."--Elfdart
HemlockGrey wrote:Perhaps, but last I checked the religion was not Paulianity. If a Christian wishes to follow his teachings, fine, but the basic, core concepts of Christianity are those laid out by Jesus, not the ones laid out by Paul- those are optional, for lack of a better word.
Please inform the churches so they will stop quoting Paul as justification for the things they do. I have attended literally hundreds of church services in many denominations, and I have never seen one church that did not appeal to Paul's authority sooner or later.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
Paul's writings are "optional"? Then why do they make up the bulk of the New Testament? If "true Christiantiy" is supposed to be just the teachings of Jesus, why don't people just use the four gospels?
Thank the -shudder- Catholic church for that.
Please inform the churches so they will stop quoting Paul as justification for the things they do. I have attended literally hundreds of church services in many denominations, and I have never seen one church that did not appeal to Paul's authority sooner or later.
God knows I've tried.
The End of Suburbia
"If more cars are inevitable, must there not be roads for them to run on?"
-Robert Moses
"The Wire" is the best show in the history of television. Watch it today.
Paul's writings are "optional"? Then why do they make up the bulk of the New Testament? If "true Christiantiy" is supposed to be just the teachings of Jesus, why don't people just use the four gospels?
Thank the -shudder- Catholic church for that.
You are still perfectly free to rip everything but the four gospels out of your own copy of the bible.
"everytime a person is born the Earth weighs just a little more."--DMJ on StarTrek.com
"You see now you are using your thinking and that is not a good thing!" DMJay on StarTrek.com
"Watching Sarli argue with Vympel, Stas, Schatten and the others is as bizarre as the idea of the 40-year-old Virgin telling Hugh Hefner that Hef knows nothing about pussy, and that he is the expert."--Elfdart
HemlockGrey wrote:Yes? And? You asked why most churches seem to blindly accept the word of Paul, and I answered that.
The point is that you consider "true Christianity" to be only what Jesus directly said in the four gospels. Other Christians do not share this view. In the case of the Pauline epistles, many take them as directly inspired from Jesus through Paul. Who gets to decide which is right?
"everytime a person is born the Earth weighs just a little more."--DMJ on StarTrek.com
"You see now you are using your thinking and that is not a good thing!" DMJay on StarTrek.com
"Watching Sarli argue with Vympel, Stas, Schatten and the others is as bizarre as the idea of the 40-year-old Virgin telling Hugh Hefner that Hef knows nothing about pussy, and that he is the expert."--Elfdart
Then why do they make up the bulk of the New Testament? If "true Christiantiy" is supposed to be just the teachings of Jesus, why don't people just use the four gospels?