Ikudograms necessary?

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2007-01-08 01:04am

No, subspace is the answer to everything, though I'd imagine that transporter/replicator/holodeck technology probably involves subspace in some way.

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2007-01-08 03:52am

Isolder74 wrote:
montypython wrote:According to the V'ger episode "Year of Hell", okudagrams are configurable for braille, so it would be possible for some tactile feedback in the system.
How is that suppose to work? Braille is a system of raised dots. That would require a physical button with the bumps engraved on it. How can the screen raise these dots on demand?

It wasn't explicitly called Braille. After Tuvok loses his eyes, he's next seen at his station saying this -

TUVOK: Computer, activate tactile interface.
CHAKOTAY: Weapons status?
TUVOK: Phasers are still online. Torpedo launchers are still inoperative.

So however it might work - raised bumps, electrical shocks, morphing textures, whatever - it is possible to use a console blind and it does have a means of providing tactile feedback. Not only that, it also provides a means of relaying system status info through touch...somehow.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-01-08 03:58am

For all we know, Tuvok has simply memorised the locations of context areas. There's no reason to assume he has anywhere near regular effciency without sight.

phred · Post by **phred** » 2007-01-08 04:21am

Stark wrote:For all we know, Tuvok has simply memorised the locations of context areas. There's no reason to assume he has anywhere near regular effciency without sight.

clearly he was mindmelding with the neural gelpacks that run the ship.... or something

more seriously though if that was how he did it he would still need a starting point somewhere for reference, which would slow him down a great deal more than the braille type idea

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-01-08 04:57am

'Tactile' would have to have SOME touch stimulus, but it'd be fucking useless if he didn't know where everything was relatively. Any idiot can use a touchscreen (well, almost any), but a touchscreen that only displays touch takes much longer every time you want to find another button, unless you already know where they are. I wonder how sensitive the 'let you know what function it is' and 'trigger function' system is, and if they wasted time training their crew to use something worthless in 99.99% of situations.

Frankly, mind-melding with the ships computer would have been better.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2007-01-08 09:21am

Isolder74 wrote:How is that suppose to work? Braille is a system of raised dots. That would require a physical button with the bumps engraved on it. How can the screen raise these dots on demand?

It could be made of a material that changes shape or volume in particular ways when subjected to an electrical charge.

Mad · Post by **Mad** » 2007-01-08 10:40am

Stark wrote:'Tactile' would have to have SOME touch stimulus, but it'd be fucking useless if he didn't know where everything was relatively. Any idiot can use a touchscreen (well, almost any), but a touchscreen that only displays touch takes much longer every time you want to find another button, unless you already know where they are. I wonder how sensitive the 'let you know what function it is' and 'trigger function' system is, and if they wasted time training their crew to use something worthless in 99.99% of situations.

The touchpad on my laptop is more annoying to use than a mouse, but it does a good job of knowing when I want to move the mouse (single tap and gliding) and want a click (double- or triple- tapping).

Also, to use any interface effectively, you'd need to have the layout memorized. Touch typists don't exactly have problems finding the home keys and going from there.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2007-01-08 11:08am

Mad wrote:
Stark wrote:'Tactile' would have to have SOME touch stimulus, but it'd be fucking useless if he didn't know where everything was relatively. Any idiot can use a touchscreen (well, almost any), but a touchscreen that only displays touch takes much longer every time you want to find another button, unless you already know where they are. I wonder how sensitive the 'let you know what function it is' and 'trigger function' system is, and if they wasted time training their crew to use something worthless in 99.99% of situations.
The touchpad on my laptop is more annoying to use than a mouse, but it does a good job of knowing when I want to move the mouse (single tap and gliding) and want a click (double- or triple- tapping).

Also, to use any interface effectively, you'd need to have the layout memorized. Touch typists don't exactly have problems finding the home keys and going from there.

Most home row keys at least have those little bumps on the j and f keys, which would make touch typing a bit more difficult otherwise. No tactile feedback on an interface would frankly be a pain in the ass.

Mad · Post by **Mad** » 2007-01-08 11:59am

General Zod wrote:Most home row keys at least have those little bumps on the j and f keys, which would make touch typing a bit more difficult otherwise. No tactile feedback on an interface would frankly be a pain in the ass.

Yes, my post was in response to a post about Tuvok's "tactile interface," which would be capable of providing some indicator of what his fingers are touching.

Of course, we don't know if the "tactile interface" was standard capability or if the console was specially modified after he was blinded. The interface had to be activated, indicating that it isn't default behavior for the console, in any case.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2007-01-08 12:33pm

How many people have much experience with touchscreens? They are a completely pain in the ass much of the time and are extremely prone to type-o's.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2007-01-08 12:35pm

Bounty wrote:
Isolder74 wrote:
montypython wrote:According to the V'ger episode "Year of Hell", okudagrams are configurable for braille, so it would be possible for some tactile feedback in the system.
How is that suppose to work? Braille is a system of raised dots. That would require a physical button with the bumps engraved on it. How can the screen raise these dots on demand?
It wasn't explicitly called Braille. After Tuvok loses his eyes, he's next seen at his station saying this -

TUVOK: Computer, activate tactile interface.
CHAKOTAY: Weapons status?
TUVOK: Phasers are still online. Torpedo launchers are still inoperative.
So however it might work - raised bumps, electrical shocks, morphing textures, whatever - it is possible to use a console blind and it does have a means of providing tactile feedback. Not only that, it also provides a means of relaying system status info through touch...somehow.

Still sounds like using a jackhammer to pound in a simple nail. But then we're talking about people who use a nuclear reactor to power a 1930's era radio.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2007-01-08 12:55pm

Darth Servo wrote:How many people have much experience with touchscreens? They are a completely pain in the ass much of the time and are extremely prone to type-o's.

One would hope that 24th century touchscreens are more advanced than the ones we've got today, but yeah. They're generally a pain in the ass with how easy it is to accidentally hit the wrong key when you were trying to tap onto something right next to it. Plus with some unless you hit it in exactly the right way it won't even register.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2007-01-09 10:51am

General Zod wrote:
Darth Servo wrote:How many people have much experience with touchscreens? They are a completely pain in the ass much of the time and are extremely prone to type-o's.
One would hope that 24th century touchscreens are more advanced than the ones we've got today, but yeah. They're generally a pain in the ass with how easy it is to accidentally hit the wrong key when you were trying to tap onto something right next to it. Plus with some unless you hit it in exactly the right way it won't even register.

What's worse, they are very easy to get out of allignment. Where you have the image of the button in one place but when you touch there it activated a different button or even worse does nothing. Then in order to do anything on demand you have to realign the thing. Not something you will want to have to do in the middle of combat where seconds count.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2007-01-09 10:56am

Isolder74 wrote:
General Zod wrote:
Darth Servo wrote:How many people have much experience with touchscreens? They are a completely pain in the ass much of the time and are extremely prone to type-o's.
One would hope that 24th century touchscreens are more advanced than the ones we've got today, but yeah. They're generally a pain in the ass with how easy it is to accidentally hit the wrong key when you were trying to tap onto something right next to it. Plus with some unless you hit it in exactly the right way it won't even register.
What's worse, they are very easy to get out of allignment. Where you have the image of the button in one place but when you touch there it activated a different button or even worse does nothing. Then in order to do anything on demand you have to realign the thing. Not something you will want to have to do in the middle of combat where seconds count.

I believe I covered that about hitting it exactly the right way, but yeah. I've seen a few touchscreens that just don't line up quite right and you have to take a few seconds to actually figure out where the damn button actually is on the screen.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2007-01-09 05:22pm

Well its been said before but its worth saying again: the REAL reason they use these damn things in TNG era Trek is they are cheap and look cool. Being better tech has little if anything to do with it.

Teleros · Post by **Teleros** » 2007-01-10 03:05pm

Just a few links for tactile displays, courtesy of New Scientist:

Article on pocket-sized display (requires New Scientist subscription to view whole article)
Tactile technology on the horizon

I suppose something like this could make sense if you're trying to design against every possible safeguard and had the time etc to train at least some of the crew in its use, but I can see it being easy to misinterpret and a bit OTT given there's a sick bay down the corridor that can fix most things wrong with people.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2007-01-10 04:25pm

The fact that the Star Trek tactile display has to be "activated" means it must be forcefield-based, just like everything else. I suspect that their toilets are forcefield-based too. A graviton beam pulls the shit from your ass and then a subspace sublimation coil causes it to transition into an elevated subspace strata for transfer into the ship's subsystems while targeted micro-phaser beams vapourize any remaining particles of shit around your rectum.

Maybe this explains why we never see anyone in Trek going to the bathroom; they're afraid the toilet will blow their asses off.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2007-01-10 06:05pm

Well if the reliability of the holodeck is any indication I sure as hell wouldn't use a Starfleet toilet, too.

apocolypse · Post by **apocolypse** » 2007-01-10 07:02pm

Ted C wrote:In "Hero Worship", Picard did say that it would be impossible for an unauthorized user to affect the ship accidentally by touching a console.

I'm not sure if it's relevant or not, but if memory serves this was actually Data, and it was in regards to the boy (Jeremy?) believing that he blew up the Vico by accidentally hitting buttons on the touchscreen. Data was pointing out that it was impossible for him to do so, as self-destruct is vocally activated.

As far as touchscreens go, I use them nearly everyday at work, and generally dislike them. They have a tendency to go out of alignment (which results in me constantly having to back up and retype a letter) and there's absolutely no feedback involved. I much more prefer a standard keyboard.

Jawawithagun · Post by **Jawawithagun** » 2007-01-10 07:09pm

Darth Wong wrote:The fact that the Star Trek tactile display has to be "activated" means it must be forcefield-based, just like everything else.

Or it might just bei their smart-arsed way of saying "turn that bloody function on". Doesn't say it has to be forcefield-based to me.

montypython · Post by **montypython** » 2007-01-11 12:43am

Darth Servo wrote:Well its been said before but its worth saying again: the REAL reason they use these damn things in TNG era Trek is they are cheap and look cool. Being better tech has little if anything to do with it.

Rules of Engagement 2 used a quad panel multi-function display system that could be compared to the LCARS system; although complicated at first glance, it was quite good for coordinating multiple systems simultaneously.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-01-11 12:47am

You know what: it actually wasn't. It was a cool IDEA, but the ROE2 UI was a fucking chaotic mess.

Doesn't stop me wishing there was a polished version that worked on XP, though.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2007-01-11 02:50am

Jawawithagun wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:The fact that the Star Trek tactile display has to be "activated" means it must be forcefield-based, just like everything else.
Or it might just bei their smart-arsed way of saying "turn that bloody function on". Doesn't say it has to be forcefield-based to me.

Why would it not always be on? It's not like there's any penalty fo sighted users for having those little location bumps on a keyboard that allow blind users to find the keys.