America-An Evil Country?

[CarsonPalmer]

All right, I don't want to fuck up the thread in which Jadeite is receiving a richly deserved beating, but a comment by Lord of the Abyss deserves a response. In this thread he said of America

An evil country, especially historically.

Now, I think this is a rather bold claim, and I propose the question to Lord of the Abyss, what makes America different from any other country? Unless you claim that every country in the world was evil, I make the claim that America was not all that different in the 17, 18, and most of the 1900's than any other country. No better and no worse. So, prove to me, Lord of the Abyss, that America is an evil country compared to the rest of the world.

[Stark]

You know, that isn't what the quote says. He says America was 'evil, especially historically' which is just his crazy way of saying the US has done some really deplorable things over the years for whatever reasons. This is true.

[Frank Hipper]

Is America special in it's evils, historically?

Deserving of particular attention in a historical review of foul actions?

[Darth Raptor]

Is America special in it's evils, historically?

Deserving of particular attention in a historical review of foul actions?

I suppose if you want to get anal about it, America has existed longer as a continuous nation-state than some of the worst offenders; many of which don't really exist at all anymore. Britain is the only Evil Empire I can think of that's outlasted us- as in still exists.

[Lonestar]

Like Germany? Or Russia? Or....China? Japan?


All of these are "states" that have existed much longer than the US.

[CarsonPalmer]

I don't think anyone can dispute that America has done nasty things, things that are rightly reviled. I'm just disputing that this is unusual in any way, especially for the imperialist era and the Cold War.

[Nova Andromeda]

Like Germany? Or Russia? Or....China? Japan?


All of these are "states" that have existed much longer than the US.

-The genocide of entire races by the U.S. probably matches or surpasses anything those states have ever done in terms of evilness (e.g., level of suffering inflicted plus hell bent desire to inflict said suffering for immoral reasons).
-BTW, that is only one set of crimes against humanity the U.S. is responsible for.
-Anyone have a good link that lists crimes against humanity by state and/or time period?

[KrauserKrauser]

I so want to hear him say how the US was special in it's commiting of unspeakable acts in the past. Or is it just because you want to forget that every nation has commited horrible acts?

Definitely don't look at the good it did by stemming the tide of Communism in Europe with the Marshall Plan and other programs. Forget that it was instrumental in the succesful recovery of the Post War world.

Don't look at any of the good that it has done, no, only the bad things. Cause they're sexxier!

[Noble Ire]

-The genocide of entire races by the U.S. probably matches or surpasses anything those states have ever done in terms of evilness (e.g., level of suffering inflicted plus hell bent desire to inflict said suffering for immoral reasons).

In terms of pure loss of life, the Holocaust, the Stalinist Purges, and the Second Sino-Japanese War were all vastly worse than the various Native American genocides of the eighteen and nineteen hundreds, in which no more than half a million, if that, were actually slain. Additionally, to say that the purges and relocations were done out of simple malice is a distortion of facts; while there were certainly a few who actively quested to inflict suffering on Indian peoples, and racism was rampant, the period was marked by economic and political expediancy at any cost, not institutionalized inhumanity for the sake of inhumanity.

Certainly, the destruction of hundreds of cultures was an indisputably evil act, but the slaughter of millions and ethnic cleansings of the second World War are at very least comparable. And then, of course, one must consider what the various European powers of the Colonial and Imperialist eras did to Africa and South America. The United States is hardly singular in its past crimes.

[CarsonPalmer]

I know its Wikipedia, but for now its all I have access to.

The Indian "wars" are hard to estimate, but sources tend to say 45,000 killed by direct causes. This is by far the nastiest.

Between 250,000 and 1 million Filipino civilians dead in the Phillipine Conflict. 16,000 soldiers killed as well.

If you want, we can include the 25,000 dead Mexican soldiers in the Mexican-American War.

I'm not sure what other figures you want.

So for America, we've got the especially nasty Indian genocide, the also nasty Phillippine Conflict, and the Mexican-American War. Now, the Mexican-American war is hardly justified, but for an imperialist conflict, its not all that bad.

Britain has their own Indian wars, the occupation of India, the Opium Wars, the Scramble for Africa, and Ireland, as well as indirect responsibility for World War I. I don't find Britain's track record any better than America's.

[Panzer Grenadier]

I think America is maybe slightly less evil collectivly as a nation compared to some of the European nations that have a longer history. I think we also have the advantage of being formed in a slightley more civillized modern era. I think we are well on our way to catching up with the Europeans though *Cough* Iraq *cough*

[Nova Andromeda]

I so want to hear him say how the US was special in it's commiting of unspeakable acts in the past. Or is it just because you want to forget that every nation has commited horrible acts?

Definitely don't look at the good it did by stemming the tide of Communism in Europe with the Marshall Plan and other programs. Forget that it was instrumental in the succesful recovery of the Post War world.

Don't look at any of the good that it has done, no, only the bad things. Cause they're sexxier!

-Oh look atrocities appologist! You do realize that that murderer is still a murderer regardless of whether they save someone's life don't you?

In terms of pure loss of life, the Holocaust, the Stalinist Purges, and the Second Sino-Japanese War were all vastly worse than the various Native American genocides of the eighteen and nineteen hundreds, in which no more than half a million, if that, were actually slain.

-Yeah, and the U.S. forces in Iraq may have only killed 10's of thousands directly. Indirectly, the invasion has cost ~600,000 Iraqi lives. Likewise the U.S. is responsible for a vastly greater number of native american deaths than just those directly slain.
-Of course, Britain and other European nations are probably responsible for even more deaths in south and central america. However, the number of nations responsible for slaughter on this level is a minority due to simple fact that most nations simply didn't and still don't have the power to inflict that level of carnage.

[Luzifer's right hand]

Germany is not Nazi German and the same goes for most other countries.
Most countries underwent huge changes over the time and have vastly differnt goverments now than 100 or 200 years ago.
The US has still the same kind of goverment.
Can you really compare such countries?

[Lonestar]

-The genocide of entire races by the U.S. probably matches or surpasses anything those states have ever done in terms of evilness (e.g., level of suffering inflicted plus hell bent desire to inflict said suffering for immoral reasons).

Match? Maybe. Surpass? Uh-uh. At the end of the day, the Indians got wiped out by a immune system poorly devolped for illnesses that evolved in urban areas, not a dedicated campaign of genocide. (If the USA had bene bound and determine to wipe out the native people sin the States, there wouldn't be any left).

The forced removal of native populations is something that has been around since at least Babylon, and probably earlier. Certainly, there was a lot of population transfer in Russia and Germany(more Russia than Germany).

-BTW, that is only one set of crimes against humanity the U.S. is responsible for.

Indeed. But, like most of the other hypothetical crimes(I can't think of any that would stand out as unique to America), it does not surpass that of the much longer lasting states that I have mentioned.

[Stark]

I'm just not convinced a history of evil acts has to be special, or remarkable. It'd be remarkable if there was LESS evil. When you pretend your the avatar of virtue, you get your grubby past picked through: thems the breaks.

[KrauserKrauser]

I'm at no point advocating that the US hasn't done bad things.

I'm just saying that our bad spots are just as bad as everybody else's bad spots, unless you want to tell me that the Japanese treatment of the Chinese, the Chinese treatment of their own citizens, the USSR's treatment of it's people and those of the Eastern Bloc, and any number of the other horrible things that other countries have done in their past somehow pale in comparison to the actions of the US historically.

[Stark]

I'm not supporting whatever context in which the statement was made. It's just absurd to jump all over him for saying the US has a history of evil acts. It does. Deal with it, like every other nation on Earth except Japan - and remember how little patience we have for Japanese denial?

[KrauserKrauser]

If nothing else his quote:

given that America is a nation that was built on genocide and slavery. An evil country, especially historically.

Reeks of bullshit America hating, especially since the majority of the world was "built on genocide and slavery" especially historically speaking. Hell, the reason we aren't all Muslims now is due the ancestral French and Spanish killing enough Muslims to drive them off the Iberian peninsula. The whole fucking plant is long story of one people killing another and taking their stuff.

If he's not from America, which I don't know if he is or not, I'm sure he'll be unpleasantly surprised to find out the checkered past of his nation of residence.

[Stark]

Oh yeah, and this *is* Lord of the Abyss we're talking about, so we all know what belfry he's coming from. I'm just reacting to the 'it doesn't matter because we're no worse' thing: too bad. Every country has it's nasty past, and denying it is just lame.

[KrauserKrauser]

Germany is not Nazi German and the same goes for most other countries.
Most countries underwent huge changes over the time and have vastly differnt goverments now than 100 or 200 years ago.
The US has still the same kind of goverment.
Can you really compare such countries?

Well sweet shit, I guess since we have the same "form" of government, it must be the same government. There can definitely be no change in the government without having to switch the form of government.

I'm sure the US government hasn't gone through these same huge changes, in fact let me head over to my local slave market to pick up a few.....oh wait.

[Cos Dashit]

Mongolia, as a state historically, is probably incredibly evil, surpassing America's short history. The leaders, (yes, mostly Genghis Khan) gave their opponents a choice to surrender. If they refused, utter annihilation, and it wasn't clean. The Mongol Empire's history was written in blood. But, on the flip side, they were very nice to their supporters and vassal states, no religious prosecution, prosperity because of the increased trade, et cetera. So, I suppose there is malevolence and benevolence.

Historically, Japan is another biggie, especially around the time of the Tokugawa (spelling?) Shogunate. Diamyos, samurai, and feudalism in the extreme. At the word of your lord, father, anybody above you, you had to commit ritual suicide. If you didn't deserve that, you could be crucified, or perhaps crucified and then fed to the dogs. Proper names were given only to samurai or other honorable people. Peasants were named "Fisherman with one eye" or other such things. They also believed their race was superior to all others (not uncommon, but it was a very strong belief) and several of them hated Christians intensely. More recently, during WWII women and schoolchildren being ordered to jump off cliffs instead of getting captured by the enemy isn't exactly a sweet thing to do. It's almost as bad as obliging to such a request. Also, near the end of the war; the refusal to surrender after a nuclear bomb killed thousands of civilians at Hiroshima causing many thousand more deaths is astounding.

Nazi Germany was also fairly evil, for reasons everybody on this board is aware of.

Russian tsars were fairly pissy as well, particularly Ivan the Terrible.

Spain went through a very cruel period, during the colonization of the Americas and the Inquisition.

America. Historically, we are young. The most evil thing we've done, in my opinion, is the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Some argue it was necessary for their surrender, and we did give them ample warning. But still pretty damn mean. We've never persecuted people religiously, formally at least. At least on the surface, America is a place of religious freedom.

On the whole, not evil. But not benevolent either.

[Batman]

Germany is not Nazi German and the same goes for most other countries.
Most countries underwent huge changes over the time and have vastly differnt goverments now than 100 or 200 years ago.
The US has still the same kind of goverment.
Can you really compare such countries?

Well sweet shit, I guess since we have the same "form" of government, it must be the same government. There can definitely be no change in the government without having to switch the form of government.

Are you really this stupid? The system of government in the US hasn't (to my knowledge) changed in any major way in the past 200 years while the systems in most european countries have. I'm not sure you noticed but Russia used to have a Zsar, turned into the head honcho of the USSR for a while and these days seems to be trying to be a democracy during the time the US of A were around as a nation. Need I mention Spain? Nazi Germany?
You guys HAVE had the same government for the past 200 years.
DO point out the massive changes that have been done in-between.

I'm sure the US government hasn't gone through these same huge changes, in fact let me head over to my local slave market to pick up a few.....oh wait.

And that's a change in government how, exactly?

[CarsonPalmer]

Oh, I'm not and nobody else is denying that America hs had a nasty, brutish past with many, many racist, imperialist, and murderous actions taken. However, its not fair to deny that America, like all other countries, had also had its moments of glory as well.

As you said, this is Lord of the Abyss, and I would not have challenged it if it had been another member whose meaning *could* have been anything other than "America is evil now and always has been."

[CarsonPalmer]

Posted at the same time as Batman, and wanted to respond to his post.

I don't see why having the same system of government for 200 years is a fault when the system of government itself is not the reason for American atrocities. The people in the system are the fault of that. After all, the same system that produced Andrew Jackson produced Abraham Lincoln, and the same system that produced Woodrow Wilson produced Franklin Roosevelt.

Furthermore, the Civil War marked a major turning point in the interpretation of American government. Up until that point, one was expected to maintain loyalty to their state over the Federal government. The microcosm of this change is the way the country was referred to. Up until that point, you were part of "these United States." After this, you were part of "the United States."

[Nova Andromeda]

I'm just saying that our bad spots are just as bad as everybody else's bad spots, ...

-Time for you to provide concrete evidence that the average state is even close to as bad as the U.S. Mind you there are over a hundred states in the world today and many more that existed for some time after 1500 ad. Showing that a handful of states are as bad as the U.S. is entirely insufficient.
-For simplicity's sake, major discontinuity of government such as the forceful replacement of German and Japanese governments after WW2 should mark the boundry between two separate states.