Oh, you're "sure" Sisko was given orders by Starfleet regarding the disposition of a military facility he could not hold onto and would be compelled to retreat from. Translation: you haven't a scrap of canon material to stand on so you're going to try to bullshit your way out of the corner you've painted yourself into. Nice way to completely ignore the issue of Sisko allowing an intact military facility to fall into the hands of the enemy.TheDarkling wrote:Sisko contacts SF and they tell him he isn't getting any backup, I'm also pretty sure at this point he was given his orders on what to do (they knew holding the station wasn't going to happen without more ships).Patrick Degan wrote:Sisko was ordered to leave the station to be captured intact by the Dominion? Do kindly quote the episode reference on that one.
Or do you think SF simply didn't give him any orders on what to do although they did tell him all about why he couldn't have any ships.
The we move onto the fact that even if it was his choice (since you are acting like some wayward AI from TOS and shouting "does not compute" no the issue of SF actually giving orders) and I can't possibly understand how it could be there were still reasons for him not to do it (I'm sure killing neutrals in a war and destroying their civilians and personel is against some Federation codes of conduct).
A bit of history for you to chew on: upon the fall of France to the Nazis in June 1940, the British dispatched the Royal Navy's Force H to Toloun to deliver an ultimatum to Admiral Darlan, commander of the French fleet anchored there: either join your fleet with the Royal Navy, sail your ships to neutral ports for internment, scuttle all ships within six hours, or face bombardment. Darlan delivered no reply, and Vice Admiral Sir James Somerville carried out his orders and opened fire on the warships of Britain's conquered ally. The clear imperative was to prevent vital military assets from falling intact into enemy hands, and that is exactly how the British reacted under the circumstances. The British action did not discourage other nations from allying with them against Nazi Germany, nor did it cause the Free French from regarding Britain as an enemy.Yes and going around blowing up your allies installations is going to encourage people to sign up; even the Dominion got this concept which is why they treated Bajor correctly.
and he does this when again?[/quote]It does indeed have a bearing if he sacrifices the one certain method for securing the Alpha Quadrant from invasion.Military logic belongs in no discussion about the Feds and you know it, seriously though what the Feds should have done has no bearing on Sisko’s loyalty.
WHEN HE FAILS TO COLLAPSE THE FUCKING WORMHOLE! Just what part of that is so damn difficult for you to grasp?
The fact that the wormhole was subsequently imploded in the episode "The Tears Of The Prophets" destroys your contention that the feat was impossible.Subspace conforms to the laws of our universe... oh no wait.
and again you can't possibly atribute this to Sisko but you just seem to want to attack anything and everything to do with DS9 (you can see this right?).
O'Brien's incompentence (which again you still can't prove since his knowledge of wormholes outranks yours (there is a common tendancy among certain people here to rate their opinon about canon fact, if O'Brien says it can't be destroyed and you can't prove it can be then the fact stands)).
Furthermore, in "By Inferno's Light", O'Brien stated that "not even a direct attack with photon torpedoes" would collapse the wormhole after the changeling's sabotage. The detailed synopsis of this episode provided at http://www.islands.vi/~arnoldvb/ds9-0515.htm shows this in clear black-and-white text.
On DS9, Sisko and the others discuss the sabotage of the emitter array that they were trying to use to close the wormhole. O'Brien says that the saboteur knew what he was doing, because the pulse they beamed at the wormhole had the opposite effect -- the wormhole is now so stable that even a direct attack with photon torpedoes would not collapse it.
No mention of trilithium explosives in connection with collapsing the wormhole, but rather in the device Changeling-Bashir was going to employ to nova Bajor's sun.
Sisko orders Kira and the Defiant to destroy the runabout. However, it is heading directly towards the Bajoran sun. O'Brien picks up readings from the runabout indicating that it is carrying large quanties of trilithium and other elements that, if exploded, will cause the sun to go nova, destroying Bajor, DS9, and all of the ships in the area.
Seems you got your facts confused, Darkling.
Yet again you expound on the wormhole being there is his fault, you have to PROVE this first and you havent been able to but only complain about O'Brien, which has no bearing on Sisko. If Bajor had entered the Federation it would have had a very rough time compared to not having any troops on Bajor at all (you are either ignoring facts through dishonesty, stupidity or because you are so hell bent on being right you can't think straight).[/quote]Sisko's bablings about the Locusts had zero effect on the unfolding of events, other than to demolish the Bajoran entry into the Federation. Bajor ended up under Dominion rule because Sisko did nothing to prevent the Dominion from flying in reinforcement convoys for months before the outbreak of war. He did a half-assed job of blockading the wormhole access and one which in the end failed when the Cardassians figured out how to overwhelm the mine replication capacity, which was made possible in part because they had access to the station's computers which were rebuilt quickly enough by the Cardassian engineers. Without the intervention of the wormhole aliens, the Federation would have been conquered, but had there been no wormhole, there never would have been the danger of Gamma Quadrant reinforcements in the first place.I have seen the episode and Sisko believed that aliens that could see the future were telling him something and surprise THEY WERE, by heeding their warning he helped both the Federation and Bajor.
I have demonstrated the point about Sisko's failure to close the wormhole permanently and shut off the Gamma Quadrant from the Alpha Quadrant. The Dominion's relatively peaceful occupation of Betazed in the war suggests what their approach would have been had Bajor been a Federation member —especially given Weyoun's overall political strategy of subversion rather than direct force against AQ worlds to break up the UFP alliances to win the war. And in any case, my point was that Sisko's judgement was based entirely upon visions experienced while in an unstable mental state, which is not considered reliable as a source of intelligence and was a condition brought on by his placing his role as Emissary over that of Starfleet officer. That you have refused to recognise either indicates either dishonesty or stupidity on your part.
On the contrary, I have already demonstrated that your grasp of the basic episode facts is questionable. I have already demonstrated that the wormhole was collapsed despite Changeling-Bashir's sabotage, suggesting that it was indeed feasible.You failed to address the point but continued to whine about the wormhole something which hacve still yet to prove displayed what you say it displayed (or even proved that the wormhole could have been destroyed).
Strawman —I said that Sisko should have collapsed the wormhole. At the least, he should have destroyed DS9 on the retreat from Bajor. Please actually read what I am saying instead of relying on your obviously faulty interpretation of my words.Then the fact that you think Sisko should have mined the wormhole off his own back without getting orders (which in effect means Sisko declares war on the Dominion without his governments say so) is insane - please look at where this crusade agsint Sisko is taking you.
OK at this pouint I have to ask if you saw the show - Bajor didn't end up under Dominion rule anymore than it was under federation rule before hand - not noe Jem Hadar set foot omn Bajor, the government still ruled the planet and control of the station was shared as it was before.I ignore nothing. I said Sisko's mental state was questionable; a condition following his exposure to the Orb of Prophecy. I said that his "vision" was not the same as hard intelligence discovered through observation and surveillance. In other words, actually examining hard evidence. And your pathetic argument that he "went with his gut" and made the decision which saved Bajor is belied by the fact that the planet ended up under Dominion rule anyway.A mechanic examines my car just like the wormhole aliens can examine the future (since they can see it) therefore the wormholes aliens telling Sisko something is going to happen needed consideration.
Now Sisko can go with his gut and take it to be a message from the wormhole aliens or he can ignore it - he goes with his gut and makes the right decision something you seem eager to ignore.
If Bajor had been a Federation world it would have had troops ladning on it and it would have been placed under Dominion rule, the differance is between the setup they had with the Federation or the cardassian occupation - please tell me you either didn't watch the show or simply forgot because assuming the two setups are similiar is extreme idiocy.[/quote]
I did see the show. I saw Bajor winding up under the Dominion's thumb through a military occupation of the star system. It is you, rather, who seems to be having some trouble with distinguishing the difference between the alliance with the Federation and the Dominion hegemony over the Bajoran system. We've got Quark complaining about the harsher rule of the Dominion during the six-episode arc opening season five. Just what does that suggest to you? Bajor was as free under the Dominion as they were with the Federation?
Visions received while in an unstable mental condition are not Intel, no matter how much you wish to say otherwise.You can complain about his mental state whihc may have been questionable but he acted on intel from aliens in the know and he DID make the right call.
This is assuming we can ignore the presence of Jem'Hadar warships in the star system, including battleships powerful enough to carry out orbital bombardments which would devestate the surface, and Jem'Hadar control of all traffic and trade through the Bajoran system. But I will grant you the point in regards to the Dominion's policy of not putting down occupation troops on the surface. Even though the Female Founder indicates that this policy would eventually change when the Dominion's conquest of the Alpha Quadrant was complete.No troops set foot on Bajor (in fact after 3 months there was an uproar about 40 unarmed Vorta heading onto the planet) and on many ocassions Weyoun told Dukat that the Dominion had to honour its treaty and respect Bajor's independence to prove they could be trusted to the AQ.
The Dominion was in clear control of the station and the star system, unlike the previous alliance with the Federation. The Dominion's policy was a temporary indulgence until they would presumably win the war. In short, their policy was similar to Nazi Germany's toward Vichy France during the Second World War. Kira could clearly see the writing on the wall and formed up a resistance movement.Again choice between the setup they had with the Federation (sharing defense of Bajor and the station) compared to being occupied like the were by the Cardassians, if you can't see the distinction there is something wrong smewhere and if you can't see that Sisko saved lives then I fear there is no hope for you.
As for Sisko "saving lives", I maintain that his failure to even try to collapse the wormhole allowed the war to take place; a situation which would not have arisen had he been clearer in where his duty lay.
His technical crew said it wasn't possible, he believed them and the people with the most understanding of wormhole physics would have been given the task of figuring out how to collapse it - that is outside Sisko purview and is done to the federation science council (or actually the trill science council who came up with the orignal plan).[/quote]I guess not even trying to find a way to collapse the wormhole doesn't qualify as a demonstration.You have yet to show him placing his rapport with the wormhole aliens above saving his nation
O'Brien stated that a direct strike with photon torpedoes would not collapse the wormhole in "By Inferno's Light". In the later episode, "The Tears Of The Prophets", the wormhole is collapsed, despite changeling sabotage to render it more stable. This alone destroys your contention that it was not possible at all, and physics suggests that wormholes are collapsed when sufficent energies disrupt the opening. You werre asked to demonstrate why this was not feasible, and all you've done is to robotically repeat that "the technical crew said it wasn't possible".
As you wish.he tries to help out the wormhole aliens because they got injured on his watch and he felt respnosible (which to a degree he was).
It is you who is delusional, Darkling. The actual series showed the wormhole being collapsed despite changeling sabotage. This suggests that it was not impossible as you keep maintaining.He can't collapse the wormhole stop stating your self deluding fantasy as fact, he tried, he failed and then it was out of his hands.
Well Im not the one who can't tell the differance between an occupation and an alliance.[/quote]Even you can't be dense enough not to recognise the metaphor.Sisko did not leave SF to go on a vision quest and when he goes to Tyree it is to reopen the wormhole the fact that the orb of the emissary also gives him a vision or two is immaterial.
No, you're merely the one who can't tell what a vision quest is despite the fact that we see a main series character looking for clues through signs, portents, and visions.
You are so full of bullshit that it's not even funny anymore. Sisko's voyage to Tyree in the first place was prompted by a vision of his real mother. He relies on a talisman to lead him to his Ark of the Covenant, and receives more visions on Tyree while digging in the sand involving his dream-persona of Benny Russel. But you're going to retreat behind a screen of terminology to avoid facing the fact that we're seeing a vision quest at work in the opening two episodes of season 7. More intellectual dishonesty on your part.I care not about the metaphor - it wasn't a vision quest (you use that term as a subtle attack on Sisko) it was the use of a communication device to contact some aliens and aid them in winning a battle, nothing more.
The episodes "Images In The Sand", "Shadows And Symbols", and the other episodes regarding Sisko putting his role as Emissary over that of Starfleet officer constitute my proof. Sorry if this doesn't suit you, apologist.You have this built up version of Sisko in your head but I think this thread has shown that your idea of Sisko (and Trek in general probably) bares nothing in common with actual trek and is not based in canon.
If its that obvious then it shouldn't be too hard to prove it - he wants to correct his errors sure but regain favour? I can't recall seeing him ever grasp for favuor with the wormhole aliens however you must have a wealth of evidence to present and I await this well thought out case.[/quote]You can't misconstrue what is plain in the episode material. It is you who is trying to find every bullshit exception to deny what Sisko is truly seeking.Given that you just misconstrued an entire episode yes I would actually like to see evidence rather than taking things on faith.
What would you call what he was doing in "The Sacrifice Of Angels"? If he wasn't grasping for their assistance in defeating the Dominion a.k.a. their favour, then what was it? If he wasn't putting his role as Emissary first and his position as Starfleet officer second, then why does he skip out on his duties in the middle of a war, wallow in his guilt for three months, and then proceeds to follow visions to reconnect with the Prophets, or redeem his "sin" of ignoring their word?
Again, quote where he had orders from Starfleet to allow an intact DS9 to be captured by the Dominion, please. A fucking canon quote, please.Except he had orders on what to do and would have probably have been going against SF rules if he were to destroy a neutrals property (and he sure as hell would have failed in his mission to bring Bajor into the the Federation).He leaves an intact military facility to fall into enemy hands so as not to "upset" the Bajorans. That is placing his role as Emissary over his duty as a Starfleet officer. And while that is not disloyalty, it is certainly a demonstration of conflicted loyalty.
All O'Brien says, according to "By Inferno's Light", is that a direct attack with photon torpedoes will not do the job. Later, the wormhole is indeed collapsed. I think that suggests that O'Brien isn't the all-knowing expert you claim him to be to support your incresingly rickety case.I havent the faintest idea how artificially created wormholes function (in trek or otherwise) O'Brien does and he makes it cleart it can't be doen now lets see - O'Brien has studied wormholes, lives next door to one, has traveled through one. You - thinks it should work against what a canon character states.Kindly outline how a brute-force application of sufficent energy to overcome the wormhole's field stability threshold is unfeasible, please.
Your opinion < O'Briens statement (CANON)
Your opinion, Darkling < CANON facts from "By Inferno's Light" and "The Tears Of The Prophets".
Which excludes yourself, it seems.Not its isn't questionable its obvious to anyone with a brainSince Bajor wound up a Dominion outpost, the "benefit" you keep yammering on about is questionable to say the least. It's funny to see you standing up and arguing that making decisions based upon psychic visions received while in a questionable mental state is even remotely sensible.
Visions do not equal solid Intel, no matter how much you wish to say otherwise. Weyoun's clear political strategy indicates that the value of Sisko's call is negligible, and the Female Founder's intimation to Odo that the policy would change with the Dominion's presumed victory in the war means that the planet would have become a Dominion slave colony under even worse conditions than suffered under the Cardassians, as indicated by Dominion rule of the Gamma Quadrant.Alliance or occupation. Psychic visions no however the Wormhole aliens do communicate in this manner and it has been shown they know the future and you keep dodging the fact he made the correct call.
Cute, but irrelevant.He states that he failed as both and the fact he failed for the first time ever as a SF officier seems to bother him more however thats just me opinion (see how I seperated that from fact).
He has no idea what occurred with the wormhole aliens. And a commander who isn't prepared to lose a friend or two while prosecuting a war is not psychologically qualified to command. He made a valid military decision but fell apart because he lost a friend and lost the connection to the Prophets.He felt guilty because his ignoring he wormhole aliens lead to the death of his friend and harming of an entire race of people (the wormhole aliens), he sort a way to rectify his mistake which he did however it is clear that with the guilt he didn't feel up to command and having someone with unresolved issues that may affect his judgement in command isn't a good idea.
Oh yes, he "tries to close the wormhole" once —then never even tries to investigate any possibility of doing so after the one attempt, which is what any military officer fully cognizant of his respoinsibilities would do— because he is conflicted in his roles as Starfleet officer and Emissary. Similarly, he does not destroy the space station and allows it to fall intact into Dominion hands, which is something a military officer clear in his grasp of his responsibilities would not allow. He spends time and effort to undo his "sin" of ignoring the word of the Prophets which lead to the cutoff of all contact with them, after wallowing in guilt for his "sin" for three months. This is now the third time I've answered your questions, apologist, and I will continue to answer them for as long as you keep trying to deny what is actually taking place in the show by hiding behind screens of terminology and technobabble.You haven't proved it was to regain their favour and you admit yourself guilt is a factor further up - make up your mind please. You also have yet to prove he had the chocie to close the wormhole and didn't so please stop stating it as if you have proved it, I can prove that when he does have the choice he goes for it (Ref In purgatories Shadow) so please show you evidence (this is only the what? third time I have asked).
Funny coming from somebody who claimed that O'Brien talked about trilithium explosives when he only mentioned photon torpedoes not collapsing the wormhole, then who keeps trying to deny Sisko's failure to prevent intact military equipment and facilities from falling into enemy hands, then denies that closing the wormhole was not only possible but actually did occur despite the changeling sabotage of "In Purgatory's Shadow".If it were rooted in canon bedrock you wouldn't be having such a hard time proving it.
Hmm... pot calling the kettle black.Yes all you have to down is point out episodes then twist what actually happens (Sisko wishes to regain favour) ignore what is actually said (O'Brien staes its not possible but you gloss over this) or simply forget (the incidents I have put forward that clash with your assement).
Very funny. Never mind that we see that closing the wormhole was possible despite what Sisko's technical people said ("The Tears Of The Prophets"). Never mind that Sisko stops even trying to find a way to do so after his one attempt. Never mind that he lets the station fall into enemy hands which endangers the security of his improvised minefield ("A Call To Arms", "Favour The Bold", "The Sacrifice Of Angels"). Never mind that all this is what we actually see in the fucking TV show and can be reviewed in the episodes and in plot synopses available at sites such as http://www.islands.vi/~arnoldvb/ds9-ndx.htm. No, we'll just go ahead and take your word for it, shall we?I have to wonder how long I should sit here and watch you state black is white over and over again before I tire before your wall of ignorance (the fact that you blame Sisko for not closing the wormhole when he tried and failed and then was informed it culdn't be done shows you seem to have departed the land of reason a few miles back).
you do realsise how stupid that is right - you are either stupid or just plain desperate at this point.
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