America-An Evil Country?

[18-Till-I-Die]

I love how the opposition keeps saying what amounts to "But--but--but THEY were doing it TOO!"

The point is not who is MORE evil the point is that America has done a sufficient amount of unethical and amoral shit throughout it's history up untill this very day that it can be called Evil.

All the appologist crap in the world cannot disprove that the United States have done horrifically evil things throughout it's history that means, yes, it is an evil country.

A generalization. It's funny when someone gets on their high horse, screeches...and never realizes they are doing exactly what their naysayers are screaming.

How is it a generalization? What exactly did you take offense with, so i can expand upon it if i can or put out a rebuttal?

And I'm not on a high horse, i'm wondering how a simple statement, that America has a history of evil acts, has grown into a dicussion of:

"Which is worse: America or STALIN!!!"

Who gives a shit who is worse, the fact that OTHER countries did evil shit has never ONCE been questioned (not by me certainly, and AFAIK neither has Stas Bush or LotA). It's a misdirection of the question, evading the point.

Hase the UK, Russia, China etc etc done evil shit? Yes. Do they have a history of such? Indeed they do. Is that important? Fuck no.

It's irrelevent to the question "Does America have a history of evil acts." the answer to anyone who isnt just trying to handwave away the facts is "Yes it has a long history of such and has killed hundreds of thousands (minimum) of people, not including other casualty figures".

[Noble Ire]

18, no one here has ever denied that the United States has been host to many events and individuals that are indeed evil. Similarly, I do not think that the "everybody else is bad too" debate tactic is really a valid defense; I realize that I did use it in the past, and it is undeniably true, but it does lead away from the point of this debate.

Nevertheless, I have yet to see you, or anyone else here, give a valid reason why America itself is evil. You trot out lists of atrocities and injustices, but you must recongize that those crimes were committed by the people of the United States, not the nation itself. In my view, a country cannot be blamed for such actions unless it expressly allows for or encourages them through its fundamental laws and traditions. Does the Constitution call for oppression or genocide as a matter of course? Is it an honored tradition among US presidents to wage pointless wars or act on their personal biases with the full force of their office? At one time, before the Civil War, I would say that the United States was "evil"; however, with the Abolition of slavery, the only truly vile provision of the nation's fundamental laws was removed, and it was redeemed, so to speak.

The Indian Relocations and genocide, the allowance of social and political injustice in the name of corporate profit, our recent wars of aggression and pig-headed posturing, the removal of the basic liberities of US citizens; these are all acts of men, those in power at a specific time. They may use the nation as a facilitator of their policies, and some may fault may lie with the country itself for not having more stringent limitations in place to prevent such perversion, but in the end, these flaws are not adopted as matters of course for the nation and its people. Invariably, more sane and compassionate leaders have eventually regained control, and undone or at least halted the crimes of their predecessors.

A nation is not evil until the body's basic laws perpetuate evil. At the moment, at least, the United States has not fallen that far.

[K. A. Pital]

A nation is not evil until the body's basic laws perpetuate evil.

Questionable. One does not need laws to perpetuate a great amount of evil; likewise, one can avoid acting on evil laws.

As for differentiating the nation and certain people, or the government, I think that it was made pretty clear that by saying "America" people mean the American government.

And while, obviously, unlike a dictatorship, American people bear a greater responsibility for the actions of their democratically elected government, this still does not mean that the American Joe Average is evil - that is, unless he's fanatically chanting in the street "kill the subhuman [insert nation]" (the last step towards national mob evil).

I like that Warhammer 40K saying... "There's no such thing as innocence; only degrees of guilt".

[Noble Ire]

And while, obviously, unlike a dictatorship, American people bear a greater responsibility for the actions of their democratically elected government, this still does not mean that the American Joe Average is evil - that is, unless he's fanatically chanting in the street "kill the subhuman [insert nation]" (the last step towards national mob evil).

Of course. I never said that the blame for evil acts might not fall upon the populace; indeed, I have a rather dim view of the general American populace, now and in the past, on a great many issues. Nevertheless, the views and influences of the people are just as transient as the individuals they elect. As long as the fundamental precepts of the country set down centuries ago, which I consider to be basically good, are unchanged, the nation itself it not evil.

[Frank Hipper]

I love how the opposition keeps saying what amounts to "But--but--but THEY were doing it TOO!"

The point is not who is MORE evil the point is that America has done a sufficient amount of unethical and amoral shit throughout it's history up untill this very day that it can be called Evil.

All the appologist crap in the world cannot disprove that the United States have done horrifically evil things throughout it's history that means, yes, it is an evil country.

Show me a nation that can be called Good.

[K. A. Pital]

As long as the fundamental precepts of the country set down centuries ago, which I consider to be basically good, are unchanged, the nation itself it not evil.

If by "nation" you mean, the people, perhaps so.

For the government - not so. Many dictatorships have had progressive constitutions but how many of them actually fulfilled those constitutions and the rights given therein (might I add: "if only they acted like they wrote in the laws")? That something is a law does not mean this law would be acted upon. I don't really buy into this whole "intent and precept" thing, because, well, intents can be good and precepts can be worthy of admiration, but the end result might be commiting a lot of evil. I think that these good precepts are to be fulfilled for one to be able to claim that he is genuinely doing good.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Show me a nation that can be called Good.

I never said one existed, in fact i said exactly the opposite.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Show me a nation that can be called Good.

I never said one existed, in fact i said exactly the opposite.

To add...

That a nation can be called evil does not presuppose one can be called good. It's just as likely that one can say there are nothing but evil nations, with varying degrees of evil based on how much and how long it happened. But that does not mean that one is good and one is evil.

[Frank Hipper]

Show me a nation that can be called Good.

I never said one existed, in fact i said exactly the opposite.

To add...

That a nation can be called evil does not presuppose one can be called good. It's just as likely that one can say there are nothing but evil nations, with varying degrees of evil based on how much and how long it happened. But that does not mean that one is good and one is evil.

What purpose does taking special notice of the United States serve?

[KrauserKrauser]

Good and Evil are a dichotimy. By saying something is evil you are implying that they are not good. By saying they are good, then they are not evil.

Saying that all nations are evil and none good, then what use is evil as a quantifier of the aspects of said nation?

[18-Till-I-Die]

What purpose does taking special notice of the United States serve?

No body IS taking special notice. No one is saying it's special at all.

The reason this all started is that LotA pointed out that America has, over it's history, done many evil things. This is a fact, no one has even disputed it.

There has been many, many people trying to appologist it away. Because the folks who started the thread took offense at the idea so the basic purpose of the thread was, near as i can tell, to go "LOLLARZ Lord of the Abyss said this!" but no one can show that it is untrue only handwave ferociously in an attempt to evade the point.

Good and Evil are a dichotimy.

On the most simplistic level possible yes.

On a higher level the word evil can simply be used to describe what our society's sensibilities consider unethical and amoral in the extreme.

[Frank Hipper]

What purpose does taking special notice of the United States serve?

No body IS taking special notice. No one is saying it's special at all.

We're on page five of special notice right now...

The reason this all started is that LotA pointed out that America has, over it's history, done many evil things. This is a fact, no one has even disputed it.

There has been many, many people trying to appologist it away. Because the folks who started the thread took offense at the idea so the basic purpose of the thread was, near as i can tell, to go "LOLLARZ Lord of the Abyss said this!" but no one can show that it is untrue only handwave ferociously in an attempt to evade the point.

Point?
What point?
I've repeatedly asked for the fucking point have yet to get a fucking answer!

If all nations qualify as evil, and no nation qualifies as good, unless there's something specially onerous in the evil of the United States, THERE IS NO FUCKING POINT TO POINTING OUT THAT THE U.S. IS EVIL!

Idiots.

[18-Till-I-Die]

What purpose does taking special notice of the United States serve?

No body IS taking special notice. No one is saying it's special at all.

We're on page five of special notice right now...

The only reason we're on page five is because some people want to saythat unless America has hit some Snidley Whiplash level of obscene mustache twirling evil it hasnt "made it" yet.

Point?
What point?
I've repeatedly asked for the fucking point have yet to get a fucking answer!

The original Op asked, basically, if America has ever done anything that would make it evil.

Under that...it's also tacitly implied the thread starter (i forget who now) disagreed with this and, partly at least, was looking for some kind of cheap shot or "ZOMG i cant believe he said that" response.

If all nations qualify as evil, and no nation qualifies as good, unless there's something specially onerous in the evil of the United States, THERE IS NO FUCKING POINT TO POINTING OUT THAT THE U.S. IS EVIL!

Why not? No one is "pointing it out", this thread was not started by the person who originally said that historically America has done evil deeds. That statement was also taken out of the contex of a larger post, but i'll touch on this in a moment.

If two people are evil, either equaly or unequally, then why shouldnt one acknowledge this? How does calling one evil imply the other is good. That other people are doing the same does not make something less evil. Yes a lot of things done by nations which wouldnt be done by individuals are evil, some are more evil than others, some are less evil. There is no gold standard you have to hit before you "made it". Some people have been trying to say that unless you reach some obscene Snidley Whiplash level of mustache twirling wickedness, you cant be called evil, and are therefore good.

It was never pointed out. If i recall the original threda the ORIGINAL post by LotA was made in...the basic idea was a response to someone else's asertion that something recent done by the US was unethical and wrong. Then it was said, that's not unusual, as America has done many such evil deeds throughout it's history.

This single line was then taken and built upon into the five pages you describe. The point was to show weather or not America has done something Evil, that was what the OP asked IIRC, it's been a while since i read it.

The almost immediate answer was, yes. But then people added in, "yeah but Stalin did this and Japan did that" as if that changed the facts somehow.

[Frank Hipper]

The original Op asked, basically, if America has ever done anything that would make it evil.

No he didn't.

Under that...it's also tacitly implied the thread starter (i forget who now) disagreed with this and, partly at least, was looking for some kind of cheap shot or "ZOMG i cant believe he said that" response.

Since you obviously can't be bothered to read the OP, but have no problem strawmanning and appealing to it's motive, allow me to help:

All right, I don't want to fuck up the thread in which Jadeite is receiving a richly deserved beating, but a comment by Lord of the Abyss deserves a response. In this thread he said of America

An evil country, especially historically.

Now, I think this is a rather bold claim, and I propose the question to Lord of the Abyss, what makes America different from any other country? Unless you claim that every country in the world was evil, I make the claim that America was not all that different in the 17, 18, and most of the 1900's than any other country. No better and no worse. So, prove to me, Lord of the Abyss, that America is an evil country compared to the rest of the world.

Get it?

If you are incapable of showing that the U.S. is deserving of special notice, and think that "Why not?" answers in some rational way the question "Why do this?", then you need help.

Show why the U.S. is somehow especially evil, deserving of particular notice.

Show how pointing out that the U.S. is evil when all nations can be shown to be evil has validity of any logical sort.

Or, shut the fuck up.

[Lord of the Abyss]

Show why the U.S. is somehow especially evil, deserving of particular notice.

Who is arguing that it is ? You appear to be trying to wave away America's evil, by claiming it doesn't count unless America's evil is somehow special.

Show how pointing out that the U.S. is evil when all nations can be shown to be evil has validity of any logical sort.

Because the alternative is absurd, as I pointed out. Once again, if the whole world was composed of Nazi-style governements, would Nazi Germany suddenly no longer be evil ? Of course not; a nation or any other group or individual is evil regardless of it's collegue's evil, or lack thereof.

[Darth Wong]

I hate to interrupt this pile-on, but it's getting ridiculous. While it may be hyperbole to say that the US is evil as world empires go, it is pretty goddamned destructive as present-day countries go. So the validity of the statement in the OP really depends on just what timeframe of history we're talking about, doesn't it? By "historically", are we talking about the last 40 years, or the last two thousand?

In recent decades, few countries have caused as much global destabilization and destruction as the United States. Of those, many are unequivocally regarded as "evil", such as the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union was even repeatedly referred to by Americans (as high-ranking as your president) as the "Evil Empire" during the 1980s, in case you have all forgotten.

[SVPD]

What purpose does taking special notice of the United States serve?

No body IS taking special notice. No one is saying it's special at all.

The reason this all started is that LotA pointed out that America has, over it's history, done many evil things. This is a fact, no one has even disputed it.

Do you see that term "especially" in this quote? :

An evil country, especially historically

The use of that term indicates that there is something special i.e. unusual or worthy of special notice about the level or type of evil perpetrated by the United States. If that wasn't the case, if LotA had merely meant to say that the US is evil without comparing it or saying that it's somehow more evil than other nations he would have posted:

An evil country, historically

You guys who are claiming that "but other countries do it too" isn't a defense are full of shit. It most certainly IS a defense to the claim that the United States is especially evil, since the term especially only has meaning in comparison to other nations.

Furthermore, the defense that "but the United States hasn't changed it's government, but other countries have!" is bullshit too. Does that mean if the U.S. has a revolution tomorrow and a new government on Monday that somehow wipes away the atrocious acts of the past?

Obviously the United States has committed evil acts in the past. So fucking what? How are they especially evil?

[Kuroneko]

It seems that we have arrived to the point where we need to diagram sentences and find out which words modify what. But is such dissection really a worthwhile enterprise?

[Lord of the Abyss]

Do you see that term "especially" in this quote? :

An evil country, especially historically

The use of that term indicates that there is something special i.e. unusual or worthy of special notice about the level or type of evil perpetrated by the United States.

No, I meant that the United States was more evil in the past than the present.

You guys who are claiming that "but other countries do it too" isn't a defense are full of shit. It most certainly IS a defense to the claim that the United States is especially evil, since the term especially only has meaning in comparison to other nations.

Nonsense. It most certainly has meaning when I am judging America according to my standard of evil, and since I was expressing my view, my opinion of America, that's the stardard that matters to me. And as I've repeatedly pointed out, your "relative to other countries" standard doesn't make a whole lot of sense. IMO, the only real purpose of such a standard is to wave away the evils of history, by saying "everyone held slaves, everyone committed genocide, everyone slaughterd dissidents, so it's nothing to be ashamed of !"

Furthermore, the defense that "but the United States hasn't changed it's government, but other countries have!" is bullshit too. Does that mean if the U.S. has a revolution tomorrow and a new government on Monday that somehow wipes away the atrocious acts of the past?

If the guilty are swept out of power and punished, and America if possible repairs the harm caused, of course.

So fucking what? How are they especially evil?

Again, who is arguing it is?!

[Darth Wong]

You guys who are claiming that "but other countries do it too" isn't a defense are full of shit. It most certainly IS a defense to the claim that the United States is especially evil, since the term especially only has meaning in comparison to other nations.

And what if the other nations that you point to are also considered "evil"? The Soviet Union was certainly considered "evil" within our lifetimes, and it is still used as a negative example today, ie- people attack ideas by simply showing that the Soviets might have done things that way.

[Frank Hipper]

So far, this entire thread makes as much sense as opening a package of eggs, holding one up, and saying "My god, it's an egg!".

Idiots.

[Lord of the Abyss]

So far, this entire thread makes as much sense as opening a package of eggs, holding one up, and saying "My god, it's an egg!".

Idiots.

No, it's more like saying ""It's a rotten egg !". And your side appears to be saying, "But that egg isn't any more rotten than the others in the carton, so it's not really rotten at all !"

[Frank Hipper]

So far, this entire thread makes as much sense as opening a package of eggs, holding one up, and saying "My god, it's an egg!".

Idiots.

No, it's more like saying ""It's a rotten egg !". And your side appears to be saying, "But that egg isn't any more rotten than the others in the carton, so it's not really rotten at all !"

You're a stupid motherfucker, aren't you.

[Lord of the Abyss]

You're a stupid motherfucker, aren't you.

I am awestruck by the genius of your counterargument.

[Frank Hipper]

You're a stupid motherfucker, aren't you.

I am awestruck by the genius of your counterargument.

Present an argument first, moron.

When it's established that x=y, yet you make y noteworthy and refuse to state how or why that should be so, "stupid motherfucker" is all you deserve.